Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[FmrFreightDog]

"It seems like many at DAL (or at least here on FI) are like the Star Belly Sneetches, but you think that Sylvester McMonkey McBean is your friend. Remember he packs up and leaves after he takes ALL of the Sneetches money, stars or not. "----Tref


What language is this Tref guy speaking? Is he on dope?


Bye Bye--General Lee

He's speaking Dr. Seuss. If you really did just have a kid, you'll be speaking fluent nonsense before you know it. Tref...Probably not on dope. Dr. Seuss??? Most likely.

Ok, sorry, back to our paranoia and pilot bashing. A quick read of "The Sneetches" might do you some good.. might remind you who you're really cutting deals with up there on Virginia Ave.

 

[IXLR8]

you'll be speaking fluent nonsense before you know it.

I think we're past that...

 

[PuffDriver]

Actually NWA pilots have a contract that has a Scope section as well. It says that any acquisition/merger requires a merged seniority list and that ALPA merger policy will be used if the other airline is ALPA as well. ALPA merger policy has a clearly defined 150 day timetable for arbitration if a negotiated list is not possible, so we may see arbitration eventually anyway.

You are right. What do you think that the NWA seniority list will look like by then?

BTW, I appreciate the words about RA, and I fully agree. So far, he has come through on everything he has said. More than all of his predecessors in my tenure-4. The MEC leadership does seem to have a good relationship with him, though. Trust but verify.

 

[ExAF]

Dude, I just put GL on my ignore list and I highly recommend it.

Sure cuts down on the time it takes to get through these threads doesn't it!

 

[nwaredtail]

You are right. What do you think that the NWA seniority list will look like by then?

Save us, please. But while you're saving us please forget that NWA has more cash, less debt, better profits (% and actual amount) yet is 1/3 smaller than you. Also, glance over our fortress hubs, 787 options (RA is very happy about those I am told), Asia network, KLM history, etc.

We will be fine, even with those old, paid for, DC-9's. If I were junior at DAL, I would be a bit nervous......

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I don't think the worry is about what mgmt wants to do. They would love to have a Texas Air type operation. Dal=Cal and Nwa=Eal. That way when the Nwa employees provide the expected reaction, the absolute meltdown of the airline they break off the pieces they want and trash the rest. Easy way around our section 1. Now the part which is a little more disturbing is our Dalpa brothers siding with mgmt in their little scenario to get a leg up on us. Just shows how little brotherhood that there really is and I believe that the MAJORITY of pilot at Dal know this is underhanded they will stay silent. They are being used by the money men, but their greed and feeling of power is too intoxicating. I would like to see natl. come out against this, however Prator is in the posistion he is in do to the above cal/eal deal.

You are right. What do you think that the NWA seniority list will look like by then?

Save us, please. But while you're saving us please forget that NWA has more cash, less debt, better profits (% and actual amount) yet is 1/3 smaller than you. Also, glance over our fortress hubs, 787 options (RA is very happy about those I am told), Asia network, KLM history, etc.

We will be fine, even with those old, paid for, DC-9's. If I were junior at DAL, I would be a bit nervous......

 

[Noserider76]

It may be that any chance for the pilots to get anything ahead of this merger was going out the door quickly. DALPA realized there was no chance for an SLI agreement and salvaged a little bit for it's group. With all the work DALPA put in to try and get pilot benefit from the merger there was probably no way they were going to let it slip away. I don't think there is any way they put provisions in there to screw the NWA pilots.

If this is the case, then it looks like DL gets some money and NWA gets to keep the advancements from their retirements. Hopefully a combined list will be agreed on relatively quickly and the NWA guys get the pay as well. I would definitely have prefered that we go through this as a unified group with equal benefits but it sounds like there were hard lines drawn on both sides and this was the only way to get anything up front.

It's too bad the two MECs couldn't have built the trust required to work together during the last couple years when the merger signs began to become obvious. I hope it works out well for both sides when all is said and done.

 

[Fly4hire]

Now the part which is a little more disturbing is our Dalpa brothers siding with mgmt in their little scenario to get a leg up on us. Just shows how little brotherhood that there really is and I believe that the MAJORITY of pilot at Dal know this is underhanded they will stay silent. They are being used by the money men, but their greed and feeling of power is too intoxicating.

Cobra,

Part of the problem is they see themselves as a higher aviation life form than us. Sort of how we slaughter cows without a second thought. We are nothing but meat for their consumption

I hope the bed they crawled into with DAL Mgmt is real cozy, because that's the only "friend" they have left. Blatant anti-union actions like these will be hard, if not impossible, to recover from in the future.

 

[IronCityBlue]

I don't think the worry is about what mgmt wants to do. They would love to have a Texas Air type operation. Dal=Cal and Nwa=Eal. That way when the Nwa employees provide the expected reaction, the absolute meltdown of the airline they break off the pieces they want and trash the rest. Easy way around our section 1. Now the part which is a little more disturbing is our Dalpa brothers siding with mgmt in their little scenario to get a leg up on us. Just shows how little brotherhood that there really is and I believe that the MAJORITY of pilot at Dal know this is underhanded they will stay silent. They are being used by the money men, but their greed and feeling of power is too intoxicating. I would like to see natl. come out against this, however Prator is in the posistion he is in do to the above cal/eal deal.



That's a very NWA pilot biased POV, and you may be right about your interpretation. If so, that would be wrong and natl should stop it. However, the Delta pilot biased version has the NWA MEC trying to pad the combined list with Delta pilots to be furloughed primarily because of the parking of DC-9's and 747-200's. If true, that is equally as "unbrotherly" as the theory you are proposing. If in fact that version is true, the Delta pilots as well as natl would have no other choice but to do what it took to insure that any furloughs from either pilot group were represenative of the percentages of each respective fleet being parked that were responsibile for the furloughs in the first place.

That's 100% fair to all concerned, as there is no moral justification for stacking parts of someone else's seniority list below you to just to absorb furloughs from your side of the fence. Furthermore, if its true that the NWA was demanding super seniority because of retirements (that aren't happening in full force), the mighty 747 (which pays less than 2 other aircraft at Delta), phanton 787's (which pay 2 bucks an hour more than NWA 757 rates, and considerably less than Delta 757 rates), and full credit for 9's and -200's that are obviously on the chopping block to a large degree because of the fuel crisis we're in the middle of.

That version then add that the NWA MEC was using the threat of inevitable arbitration to "go for it" along those lines. While in theory its great for everyone to passionately argue their POV in an arbitration, its likewise not very palatable to be in arbitration arguing for a fair outcome when the other side is trying to rape you, with the safety of knowing a fair outcome is the worst they can likely expect.

Add to that the fact that about 2 billion dollars from management was wasted away by this stalemate, and add to that the fact that most of that money would have gone to the NWA pilots in the form of bigger raises and better work rules, as well as the fact that the NWA PWA also requires an eventual combining of operations anyway, and it doesn't seem so unreasonable for the Delta pilots to give up some parts of their contract (that were going to go away post merger anyway) to facilitate a merger that's going to happen anyway, and try to at least get a portion of the original incentive they were offered. If that's how it happenes, you would likely get much of that too, when your pay and work rules were brought up to theirs anyway.

So as you can see, the two different versions differ radically. Everyone thinks their version is right, but both can't be. All I'm saying is that it would be disgusting if Delta pilots tried to take your planes and growth in a backroom deal with management, but it would be equally disgusting if NWA tried to stack the list with Delta furloughs because of parked NWA planes. Which version is it? If we ever truly know, it may not be for a while.

 

[FDJ2]

Now the part which is a little more disturbing is our Dalpa brothers siding with mgmt in their little scenario to get a leg up on us.

Your DALPA brothers aren't siding with management. Your DALPA brothers are negotiating with their management. Since when is negotiations considered siding? You're free to negotiate with your management as well.



Just shows how little brotherhood that there really is and I believe that the MAJORITY of pilot at Dal know this is underhanded they will stay silent.

Lectures about brotherhood from a NWA pilot? How much brotherhood do you have between your multi colored book factions?

The Delta pilots wanted and still want a negotiated SLI that is mutually acceptable and creates one pilot group.

They are being used by the money men, but their greed and feeling of power is too intoxicating. I would like to see natl. come out against this, however Prator is in the posistion he is in do to the above cal/eal deal.

Come out against what? Please tell us the details.

 

[FDJ2]

Cobra,

Part of the problem is they see themselves as a higher aviation life form than us.

Actually, I believe you've got it backwards. The NWA pilots tend to have a bloated sense of themselves. Look at how you treated the Republic pilots.

I'm sorry, but Delta pilots wont be made second class citizens in their own airline.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Read this...

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...44B-5C81-4D9D-8472-DBF592DD32E0}&siteid=yhoof

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=111372

cliff
YIP

 

[Tref]

Sure cuts down on the time it takes to get through these threads doesn't it!

Yeah, you only need to read his posts once 'cause it's just the same thing over and over again.

 

[Tref]

You are right. What do you think that the NWA seniority list will look like by then?

Actually the policy addresses that as well. Have you read it?

 

[PuffDriver]

Actually the policy addresses that as well. Have you read it?

You mean your minute language that forces the parking of rjs if you park DC-9s? You're serious? You can't see the way around that, and you don't think that the Delta MEC, who BTW has been on the inside of this deal from day 1, has gotten a peak at the plan in order to set up their moves?

Keep calling us greedy and big headed, while your MEC got the majority of the money offered, a more than fair list integration, and better career earnings from it. You have put yourself in this position, and you will now see the result of it. You have left the Delta leadership no choice but to defend itself, and we will. My prediction is that your MEC will eventually succumb to a Delta-style list. If they do not, the -9s will be parked, the 787 orders cancelled, the 74-200s parked, furloughs announced, rjs parked and "sold" to some feeder who will fly them under Delta colors, and then a PID established and arbitration set. After all, it's what you wanted.

This in NO way makes Delta pilots arrogant--its what you wanted, scabby--it's what you wanted, or slimy--it's what you wanted. We are merely playing the cards you "misdealt" from your stacked deck.

Deal with it.

Or were you talking about merger policy? That will be the next lecture.

 

[nwaredtail]

You mean your minute language that forces the parking of rjs if you park DC-9s? You're serious?

This from the folks that lead the pack in giving away scope and have the largest RJ fleet in the world. Congrats on that!

Keep calling us greedy and big headed, while your MEC got the majority of the money offered, Approx. how much was that, numbers please.

a more than fair list integration,

What exactly was the SLI, a list will do.

and better career earnings from it. Wow, A new Carnac is born, telling everyone what their career will be. Pretty bold in today's environment

Let's see how well the Synergies last if DAL tries to screw the NWA pilots. RA is smarter than that, you, not so much.

 

[PuffDriver]

You mean your minute language that forces the parking of rjs if you park DC-9s? You're serious?

This from the folks that lead the pack in giving away scope and have the largest RJ fleet in the world. Congrats on that!

Keep calling us greedy and big headed, while your MEC got the majority of the money offered, Approx. how much was that, numbers please.

a more than fair list integration,

What exactly was the SLI, a list will do.

and better career earnings from it. Wow, A new Carnac is born, telling everyone what their career will be. Pretty bold in today's environment

Let's see how well the Synergies last if DAL tries to screw the NWA pilots. RA is smarter than that, you, not so much.

Yeah, but here's the thing, ours is going down and your up. LIke it or not, my post is factual. Yours, blather. The NWA 15 minutes are up, and reality is about to set in. Here is the NWA way:

"We already got most of the money from the deal, now we want the seniority as well. What? You greedy, Delta bastards want a fair integration? We'll see about that. <Sneak off to FI to make a few posts about Delta pilots being greedy bastards, double-breasted greedy bastards, double brested sky god greedy bastards>. We want arbitration, and expedite it!!!! What? No arbitration. <sneak out of room do give each other the what-do-we-do-if-we -don't-arbitrate look> Well, we need to negotiate? What, you say your list is already a compromise? Well, that's not negotiation. <sneak off to FI to try the public smear campaign again> Well, we've got a better balance sheet, and we can outlast you, and we can do it at 2/3 the size, and we struck once, and we have as much cash as you. That's our position. Go pound sand? Whaaattt? <sneak off to the press to publicly call Delta pilots double breasted sneaky greedy bastards since traveling public doesn't read FI> What? Talks are off? Steenland did whaaattt? The Delta MEC did whaaaattt? <sneak back on to FI to add the words scabby and scabbs to the descriptors of the Delta pilots> Well, we have less debt, a better balance sheet, DC 9s that are going to parked but are paid for, scope, you guys allow too many rjs, we have retirements you know,.

blather, blather, blather.

The Delta MEC has been light years ahead the whole time, and they will continue to be. You will be outmaneuvered in your own tactics, which will make us scabs in your eyes. Hypocrisy at its finest

 

[~~~^~~~]

Puff:

I'm hoping they don't accept what the D-MEC negotiators offered.

Can the DAL-MEC withdraw that offer pending arbitration and see where things shake out? The NWA pilots have such great confidence in their fleet, retirements, growth... let us allow some time to see how that works out. Why rush things now? Why continue negotiations when the NWA pilots just want fodder for their mother of all arbitrations?

We all say Delta's gift of an offer is not prejudicial, but surely an arbitrator will be aware of the offer. The NWA MEC "backed up," could/should the D-MEC respond in kind?

At the very least "we" need to see the plan for the NWA subsidiary before proceeding further.

 

[nwaredtail]

"We already got most of the money from the deal, now we want the seniority as well. What? You greedy, Delta bastards want a fair integration? We'll see about that. <Sneak off to FI to make a few posts about Delta pilots being greedy bastards, double-breasted greedy bastards, double brested sky god greedy bastards>. We want arbitration, and expedite it!!!! What? No arbitration. <sneak out of room do give each other the what-do-we-do-if-we -don't-arbitrate look> Well, we need to negotiate? What, you say your list is already a compromise? Well, that's not negotiation. <sneak off to FI to try the public smear campaign again> Well, we've got a better balance sheet, and we can outlast you, and we can do it at 2/3 the size, and we struck once, and we have as much cash as you. That's our position. Go pound sand? Whaaattt? <sneak off to the press to publicly call Delta pilots double breasted sneaky greedy bastards since traveling public doesn't read FI> What? Talks are off? Steenland did whaaattt? The Delta MEC did whaaaattt? <sneak back on to FI to add the words scabby and scabbs to the descriptors of the Delta pilots> Well, we have less debt, a better balance sheet, DC 9s that are going to parked but are paid for, scope, you guys allow too many rjs, we have retirements you know,.


So, it seems my posts are factual, ie financial numbers, etc. and your posts are a playscript of what the shortman said happened in NY. When you give some facts that can be actually backed up, let's us know.

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.

(1) Learn to quote
(2) We know the history. While you are trying to revise it, the Delta pilots are making it. Intransigence = irrelevance
(3) SCAB? Where's your picket line? Where's your right to status quo? If you need the definition of "SCAB," ask one of your Scab mechanics that you did not back up.
(4) Your name calling and attitude stinks.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff:

I'm hoping they don't accept what the D-MEC negotiators offered.

Can the DAL-MEC withdraw that offer pending arbitration and see where things shake out? The NWA pilots have such great confidence in their fleet, retirements, growth... let us allow some time to see how that works out. Why rush things now? Why continue negotiations when the NWA pilots just want fodder for their mother of all arbitrations?

We all say Delta's gift of an offer is not prejudicial, but surely an arbitrator will be aware of the offer. The NWA MEC "backed up," could/should the D-MEC respond in kind?

At the very least "we" need to see the plan for the NWA subsidiary before proceeding further.

No the talks are not prejudicial. We have a lawyer as our merger committee chairman. Furthermore, hopefully to ease your mind, this administration and negotiating committee are very careful with the covering of their arses. There have been a couple instances where we have given relief, and it has been clearly stated that it will be non-precedent setting. These talks are not, they were merely a way of trying to work out a list outside of merger policy.

As for hoping they don't take, well, I can understand that point of view with the big question mark of will there then be furloughs in the merged company? With the metal coming for Delta, I simply cannot see it. I can understand the concern, however, and I can sympathize. You are speaking to one of the formerly largest skeptics of this administration who has done a complete 180. We have a number of talented people working in front and behind the scenes. It is mostly the people behind the scenes that I know and trust, who have told me of the complete opposite on the other side of the fence. The lack of any kind organization, unity, and priorities are what got them here in the first place. More than one of my trusteds have told me the same stuff--the MEC chair knowing full well the deal he could not accept due to the fact that there might be <gasp> stickers on flight kits with his name <gasp again> crossed out. AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHhhhh. perish the thought. He played a game of chicken with his pilots careers, because he was afraid to lead--in trying to get the whole enchilada rather than most of the compensation. Yet we are the greedy, pig-headed, double breasted scabs you hear so much about from people on here who haven't a clue. And that is just one example of many. Unfortunately, it is that same stupid mentality which could try and burn the house down, thereby putting all of his pilots on the street. You can't fix stupid.

We could stop the merger again, and find ourselves right back where we started. Then it will come again with less. My opinion is that our MEC, of course, saw that they were playing chicken with a suicide bomber without purpose or direction, and grabbed the money and ran with their backup plan.

Can you blame them? I am inclined to agree more and more with you the more that comes out. Let them stew while they lose airplanes and look at furloughs. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear of re-announced classes on our side in the future. It would not surprise me to see NWA pieced out. They have shown their lack of cooperation in a dismal environment, and the powers-that-be are growing tired of it. Flexibility is the key in todays marketplace, and the money is going to follow those who can show their flex. Old school union brute tactics are fine when the only option is nuclear, but you have to be smart enough to know when that is. The precariousness of the airline environment today is not the time, and some aren't smart enough to know it. You exert your leverage when you have it, when you KNOW you have it. To exert it incorrectly, well, spells disaster. One group is seeing red because the cowboys screwed them. I am seeing red because the same cowboys screwed me out of money. Perhaps your right, perhaps the time has come to whack them upside the head with a 2 X 4.

Of course, that too will be our fault as they go inside crying to mama--Oberstar

 

[nwaredtail]

(1) Learn to quote
(2) We know the history. While you are trying to revise it, the Delta pilots are making it. Intransigence = irrelevance
(3) SCAB? Where's your picket line? Where's your right to status quo? If you need the definition of "SCAB," ask one of your Scab mechanics that you did not back up.
(4) Your name calling and attitude stinks.

1. Sorry, technical forum stuff is not worth the effort.
2. Yet, still no facts. Kinda like saying you have a giant pecker while all the girls know better.

3. SCAB can mean many things. Someone that enjoys and threatens to take away NWA flying, furloughs, etc. SCAB Attitude, thus ....

4. Who's name calling Butt-head!

 

[General Lee]

Yeah, but here's the thing, ours is going down and your up. LIke it or not, my post is factual. Yours, blather. The NWA 15 minutes are up, and reality is about to set in. Here is the NWA way:

"We already got most of the money from the deal, now we want the seniority as well. What? You greedy, Delta bastards want a fair integration? We'll see about that. <Sneak off to FI to make a few posts about Delta pilots being greedy bastards, double-breasted greedy bastards, double brested sky god greedy bastards>. We want arbitration, and expedite it!!!! What? No arbitration. <sneak out of room do give each other the what-do-we-do-if-we -don't-arbitrate look> Well, we need to negotiate? What, you say your list is already a compromise? Well, that's not negotiation. <sneak off to FI to try the public smear campaign again> Well, we've got a better balance sheet, and we can outlast you, and we can do it at 2/3 the size, and we struck once, and we have as much cash as you. That's our position. Go pound sand? Whaaattt? <sneak off to the press to publicly call Delta pilots double breasted sneaky greedy bastards since traveling public doesn't read FI> What? Talks are off? Steenland did whaaattt? The Delta MEC did whaaaattt? <sneak back on to FI to add the words scabby and scabbs to the descriptors of the Delta pilots> Well, we have less debt, a better balance sheet, DC 9s that are going to parked but are paid for, scope, you guys allow too many rjs, we have retirements you know,.

blather, blather, blather.

The Delta MEC has been light years ahead the whole time, and they will continue to be. You will be outmaneuvered in your own tactics, which will make us scabs in your eyes. Hypocrisy at its finest

Oh smack. That is so true.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

"We already got most of the money from the deal, now we want the seniority as well. What? You greedy, Delta bastards want a fair integration? We'll see about that. <Sneak off to FI to make a few posts about Delta pilots being greedy bastards, double-breasted greedy bastards, double brested sky god greedy bastards>. We want arbitration, and expedite it!!!! What? No arbitration. <sneak out of room do give each other the what-do-we-do-if-we -don't-arbitrate look> Well, we need to negotiate? What, you say your list is already a compromise? Well, that's not negotiation. <sneak off to FI to try the public smear campaign again> Well, we've got a better balance sheet, and we can outlast you, and we can do it at 2/3 the size, and we struck once, and we have as much cash as you. That's our position. Go pound sand? Whaaattt? <sneak off to the press to publicly call Delta pilots double breasted sneaky greedy bastards since traveling public doesn't read FI> What? Talks are off? Steenland did whaaattt? The Delta MEC did whaaaattt? <sneak back on to FI to add the words scabby and scabbs to the descriptors of the Delta pilots> Well, we have less debt, a better balance sheet, DC 9s that are going to parked but are paid for, scope, you guys allow too many rjs, we have retirements you know,.


So, it seems my posts are factual, ie financial numbers, etc. and your posts are a playscript of what the shortman said happened in NY. When you give some facts that can be actually backed up, let's us know.

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.

What? Sounds like the majority to me. We were all STUNNED you didn't take the first offer. What a great deal for you, along with you keeping your pensions. Wow. I guess not....... Thank Gawd you have a bunch of retirements coming up.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

What? Sounds like the majority to me. We were all STUNNED you didn't take the first offer. What a great deal for you, along with you keeping your pensions. Wow. I guess not....... Thank Gawd you have a bunch of retirements coming up.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What was the first offer, EXACTLY. Oh, that's right. You and IPUFFPILOTS don't know.

Facts please, just facts.

 

[General Lee]

No the talks are not prejudicial. We have a lawyer as our merger committee chairman. Furthermore, hopefully to ease your mind, this administration and negotiating committee are very careful with the covering of their arses. There have been a couple instances where we have given relief, and it has been clearly stated that it will be non-precedent setting. These talks are not, they were merely a way of trying to work out a list outside of merger policy.

As for hoping they don't take, well, I can understand that point of view with the big question mark of will there then be furloughs in the merged company? With the metal coming for Delta, I simply cannot see it. I can understand the concern, however, and I can sympathize. You are speaking to one of the formerly largest skeptics of this administration who has done a complete 180. We have a number of talented people working in front and behind the scenes. It is mostly the people behind the scenes that I know and trust, who have told me of the complete opposite on the other side of the fence. The lack of any kind organization, unity, and priorities are what got them here in the first place. More than one of my trusteds have told me the same stuff--the MEC chair knowing full well the deal he could not accept due to the fact that there might be <gasp> stickers on flight kits with his name <gasp again> crossed out. AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHhhhh. perish the thought. He played a game of chicken with his pilots careers, because he was afraid to lead--in trying to get the whole enchilada rather than most of the compensation. Yet we are the greedy, pig-headed, double breasted scabs you hear so much about from people on here who haven't a clue. And that is just one example of many. Unfortunately, it is that same stupid mentality which could try and burn the house down, thereby putting all of his pilots on the street. You can't fix stupid.

We could stop the merger again, and find ourselves right back where we started. Then it will come again with less. My opinion is that our MEC, of course, saw that they were playing chicken with a suicide bomber without purpose or direction, and grabbed the money and ran with their backup plan.

Can you blame them? I am inclined to agree more and more with you the more that comes out. Let them stew while they lose airplanes and look at furloughs. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear of re-announced classes on our side in the future. It would not surprise me to see NWA pieced out. They have shown their lack of cooperation in a dismal environment, and the powers-that-be are growing tired of it. Flexibility is the key in todays marketplace, and the money is going to follow those who can show their flex. Old school union brute tactics are fine when the only option is nuclear, but you have to be smart enough to know when that is. The precariousness of the airline environment today is not the time, and some aren't smart enough to know it. You exert your leverage when you have it, when you KNOW you have it. To exert it incorrectly, well, spells disaster. One group is seeing red because the cowboys screwed them. I am seeing red because the same cowboys screwed me out of money. Perhaps your right, perhaps the time has come to whack them upside the head with a 2 X 4.

Of course, that too will be our fault as they go inside crying to mama--Oberstar

Puffdriver for PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD. Very accurate post. I do think NWALPA may cry to Oberstar, but everytime there is an extra Chap 11 (Frontier) or liquidation (4 in the past 2 weeks)---we come closer to merging or having an acquisition. (and that is what it is, since RA is giving NWA shareholders a small premium on their stock) Always beware of a Committee Chairman with an agenda of his own.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Jmoney]

Snap....

Oh smack. That is so true.


Bye Bye--General Lee

The phrase is:

"Oh, Snap!"

-Your true retarded nature shines through again! You are absolutely the stupidest person on this board!
-Retard!

 

[General Lee]

What was the first offer, EXACTLY. Oh, that's right. You and IPUFFPILOTS don't know.

Facts please, just facts.

You didn't see the part about a 15% pay raise for NWA pilots, our workrules(huge for you guys), equity (reports of up to 100K for each of us), no fences so you could bid other bases, Steenland leaving, and you keeping your pension? You missed all of that? You weren't going to be stapled, rather be within .05% of you current spot--something you would have gotten in arbitration too. But noooooooo. Our guy Moak stated in writing that it would have been within .05%. Everyone else in the WORLD except the USAir Easties would think that is a good deal. You are a smaller airline with old planes and new ones on back order that may never get here at this rate. Please come back to reality. Can you give us some facts in your offer to us? How will you compensate us for not having a pension while you get our work rules? (what each of us kept during our BKs)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

So, it seems my posts are factual, ie financial numbers, etc. and your posts are a playscript of what the shortman said happened in NY. When you give some facts that can be actually backed up, let's us know.

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.

Ah, selective retention. Your "buddies" better jump on our forum, because it is THEY who are in the 1 percent. I have posted the facts, here is a recap:

1) The merger IS going to happen
2) You have gone to arbitration as your sole means of negotiation in the past
3) NWA was NEGOTIATED more than a fair amount of the original offering just to bring them to parity with the Delta pilots. This included a 14% DC to those who were getting 0% currently
4) The Delta pilots came to NWA in the SLI with a fair list which actually gave NWA more than relative position as a good faith offer to settle it quickly, showing them shapshots of ANY pilot on their list and the difference in their career earnings under NWA stand alone plan and the plan as a merged corporation.
5) NWA holds fast that this was a negotiation, and that we needed to move from our position, while not budging from theirs.
5 1/2) NWA pilots assure the world and try and convince themselves that they have a great scope clause, a great balance sheet, a lot of money in the bank, and the ability to be baffoons.
6) Our mEC explains that this was not a negotiation, that is what the contract settlement was. This was a fair proposal from the Delta pilots, the numbers backed it up, and that they were open to suggestions.
7) Talks break down.
7 1/2) NWA pilots assure the world and try and convince themselves that they have a great scope clause, a great balance sheet, a lot of money in the bank, and the ability to be baffoons.
8) NWA came back with its tail between its legs with another proposal, which they thought benefitted them. It actually benefitted the Delta pilots more. Delta MEC accepted. Rumors floated of an agreement, NWA figured out their mistake and reneged on the deal.
9) Delta MEc informed RA that no agreement could be reached.
10) NWA MEC called again to talk about blather, blather, blather.
11) Delta MEC says no thanks.
12) Oil continues its pace, and airlines start closing doors.
12 1/2) NWA reconvince themselves that their balance sheet is great, they hold all of the cards, ATL sucks, LAX sucks, SLC sucks despite the fact that more of their commuters live near those hubs than commuting DAL pilots live near DTW, MSP.
13) Steenland gets nervous, sells out his pilots.
14) Delta pilots are informed that the pressure to get this deal done is enormous, here's a way to make it happen.
15) Delta MEC mulls over agreement yesterday and today. No official announcement as of yet.
16) NWA pilots contend that Delta pilots are greedy after robbing them of contractual gains. NWA pilots
call Delta pilots scabs after backing them into a corner and painting themselves into one.


All factual. How'd I do?