Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[~~~^~~~]

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.

(1) Learn to quote
(2) We know the history. While you are trying to revise it, the Delta pilots are making it. Intransigence = irrelevance
(3) SCAB? Where's your picket line? Where's your right to status quo? If you need the definition of "SCAB," ask one of your Scab mechanics that you did not back up.
(4) Your name calling and attitude stinks.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff:

I'm hoping they don't accept what the D-MEC negotiators offered.

Can the DAL-MEC withdraw that offer pending arbitration and see where things shake out? The NWA pilots have such great confidence in their fleet, retirements, growth... let us allow some time to see how that works out. Why rush things now? Why continue negotiations when the NWA pilots just want fodder for their mother of all arbitrations?

We all say Delta's gift of an offer is not prejudicial, but surely an arbitrator will be aware of the offer. The NWA MEC "backed up," could/should the D-MEC respond in kind?

At the very least "we" need to see the plan for the NWA subsidiary before proceeding further.

No the talks are not prejudicial. We have a lawyer as our merger committee chairman. Furthermore, hopefully to ease your mind, this administration and negotiating committee are very careful with the covering of their arses. There have been a couple instances where we have given relief, and it has been clearly stated that it will be non-precedent setting. These talks are not, they were merely a way of trying to work out a list outside of merger policy.

As for hoping they don't take, well, I can understand that point of view with the big question mark of will there then be furloughs in the merged company? With the metal coming for Delta, I simply cannot see it. I can understand the concern, however, and I can sympathize. You are speaking to one of the formerly largest skeptics of this administration who has done a complete 180. We have a number of talented people working in front and behind the scenes. It is mostly the people behind the scenes that I know and trust, who have told me of the complete opposite on the other side of the fence. The lack of any kind organization, unity, and priorities are what got them here in the first place. More than one of my trusteds have told me the same stuff--the MEC chair knowing full well the deal he could not accept due to the fact that there might be <gasp> stickers on flight kits with his name <gasp again> crossed out. AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHhhhh. perish the thought. He played a game of chicken with his pilots careers, because he was afraid to lead--in trying to get the whole enchilada rather than most of the compensation. Yet we are the greedy, pig-headed, double breasted scabs you hear so much about from people on here who haven't a clue. And that is just one example of many. Unfortunately, it is that same stupid mentality which could try and burn the house down, thereby putting all of his pilots on the street. You can't fix stupid.

We could stop the merger again, and find ourselves right back where we started. Then it will come again with less. My opinion is that our MEC, of course, saw that they were playing chicken with a suicide bomber without purpose or direction, and grabbed the money and ran with their backup plan.

Can you blame them? I am inclined to agree more and more with you the more that comes out. Let them stew while they lose airplanes and look at furloughs. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear of re-announced classes on our side in the future. It would not surprise me to see NWA pieced out. They have shown their lack of cooperation in a dismal environment, and the powers-that-be are growing tired of it. Flexibility is the key in todays marketplace, and the money is going to follow those who can show their flex. Old school union brute tactics are fine when the only option is nuclear, but you have to be smart enough to know when that is. The precariousness of the airline environment today is not the time, and some aren't smart enough to know it. You exert your leverage when you have it, when you KNOW you have it. To exert it incorrectly, well, spells disaster. One group is seeing red because the cowboys screwed them. I am seeing red because the same cowboys screwed me out of money. Perhaps your right, perhaps the time has come to whack them upside the head with a 2 X 4.

Of course, that too will be our fault as they go inside crying to mama--Oberstar

 

[nwaredtail]

(1) Learn to quote
(2) We know the history. While you are trying to revise it, the Delta pilots are making it. Intransigence = irrelevance
(3) SCAB? Where's your picket line? Where's your right to status quo? If you need the definition of "SCAB," ask one of your Scab mechanics that you did not back up.
(4) Your name calling and attitude stinks.

1. Sorry, technical forum stuff is not worth the effort.
2. Yet, still no facts. Kinda like saying you have a giant pecker while all the girls know better.

3. SCAB can mean many things. Someone that enjoys and threatens to take away NWA flying, furloughs, etc. SCAB Attitude, thus ....

4. Who's name calling Butt-head!

 

[General Lee]

Yeah, but here's the thing, ours is going down and your up. LIke it or not, my post is factual. Yours, blather. The NWA 15 minutes are up, and reality is about to set in. Here is the NWA way:

"We already got most of the money from the deal, now we want the seniority as well. What? You greedy, Delta bastards want a fair integration? We'll see about that. <Sneak off to FI to make a few posts about Delta pilots being greedy bastards, double-breasted greedy bastards, double brested sky god greedy bastards>. We want arbitration, and expedite it!!!! What? No arbitration. <sneak out of room do give each other the what-do-we-do-if-we -don't-arbitrate look> Well, we need to negotiate? What, you say your list is already a compromise? Well, that's not negotiation. <sneak off to FI to try the public smear campaign again> Well, we've got a better balance sheet, and we can outlast you, and we can do it at 2/3 the size, and we struck once, and we have as much cash as you. That's our position. Go pound sand? Whaaattt? <sneak off to the press to publicly call Delta pilots double breasted sneaky greedy bastards since traveling public doesn't read FI> What? Talks are off? Steenland did whaaattt? The Delta MEC did whaaaattt? <sneak back on to FI to add the words scabby and scabbs to the descriptors of the Delta pilots> Well, we have less debt, a better balance sheet, DC 9s that are going to parked but are paid for, scope, you guys allow too many rjs, we have retirements you know,.

blather, blather, blather.

The Delta MEC has been light years ahead the whole time, and they will continue to be. You will be outmaneuvered in your own tactics, which will make us scabs in your eyes. Hypocrisy at its finest

Oh smack. That is so true.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

"We already got most of the money from the deal, now we want the seniority as well. What? You greedy, Delta bastards want a fair integration? We'll see about that. <Sneak off to FI to make a few posts about Delta pilots being greedy bastards, double-breasted greedy bastards, double brested sky god greedy bastards>. We want arbitration, and expedite it!!!! What? No arbitration. <sneak out of room do give each other the what-do-we-do-if-we -don't-arbitrate look> Well, we need to negotiate? What, you say your list is already a compromise? Well, that's not negotiation. <sneak off to FI to try the public smear campaign again> Well, we've got a better balance sheet, and we can outlast you, and we can do it at 2/3 the size, and we struck once, and we have as much cash as you. That's our position. Go pound sand? Whaaattt? <sneak off to the press to publicly call Delta pilots double breasted sneaky greedy bastards since traveling public doesn't read FI> What? Talks are off? Steenland did whaaattt? The Delta MEC did whaaaattt? <sneak back on to FI to add the words scabby and scabbs to the descriptors of the Delta pilots> Well, we have less debt, a better balance sheet, DC 9s that are going to parked but are paid for, scope, you guys allow too many rjs, we have retirements you know,.


So, it seems my posts are factual, ie financial numbers, etc. and your posts are a playscript of what the shortman said happened in NY. When you give some facts that can be actually backed up, let's us know.

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.

What? Sounds like the majority to me. We were all STUNNED you didn't take the first offer. What a great deal for you, along with you keeping your pensions. Wow. I guess not....... Thank Gawd you have a bunch of retirements coming up.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

What? Sounds like the majority to me. We were all STUNNED you didn't take the first offer. What a great deal for you, along with you keeping your pensions. Wow. I guess not....... Thank Gawd you have a bunch of retirements coming up.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What was the first offer, EXACTLY. Oh, that's right. You and IPUFFPILOTS don't know.

Facts please, just facts.

 

[General Lee]

No the talks are not prejudicial. We have a lawyer as our merger committee chairman. Furthermore, hopefully to ease your mind, this administration and negotiating committee are very careful with the covering of their arses. There have been a couple instances where we have given relief, and it has been clearly stated that it will be non-precedent setting. These talks are not, they were merely a way of trying to work out a list outside of merger policy.

As for hoping they don't take, well, I can understand that point of view with the big question mark of will there then be furloughs in the merged company? With the metal coming for Delta, I simply cannot see it. I can understand the concern, however, and I can sympathize. You are speaking to one of the formerly largest skeptics of this administration who has done a complete 180. We have a number of talented people working in front and behind the scenes. It is mostly the people behind the scenes that I know and trust, who have told me of the complete opposite on the other side of the fence. The lack of any kind organization, unity, and priorities are what got them here in the first place. More than one of my trusteds have told me the same stuff--the MEC chair knowing full well the deal he could not accept due to the fact that there might be <gasp> stickers on flight kits with his name <gasp again> crossed out. AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHhhhh. perish the thought. He played a game of chicken with his pilots careers, because he was afraid to lead--in trying to get the whole enchilada rather than most of the compensation. Yet we are the greedy, pig-headed, double breasted scabs you hear so much about from people on here who haven't a clue. And that is just one example of many. Unfortunately, it is that same stupid mentality which could try and burn the house down, thereby putting all of his pilots on the street. You can't fix stupid.

We could stop the merger again, and find ourselves right back where we started. Then it will come again with less. My opinion is that our MEC, of course, saw that they were playing chicken with a suicide bomber without purpose or direction, and grabbed the money and ran with their backup plan.

Can you blame them? I am inclined to agree more and more with you the more that comes out. Let them stew while they lose airplanes and look at furloughs. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear of re-announced classes on our side in the future. It would not surprise me to see NWA pieced out. They have shown their lack of cooperation in a dismal environment, and the powers-that-be are growing tired of it. Flexibility is the key in todays marketplace, and the money is going to follow those who can show their flex. Old school union brute tactics are fine when the only option is nuclear, but you have to be smart enough to know when that is. The precariousness of the airline environment today is not the time, and some aren't smart enough to know it. You exert your leverage when you have it, when you KNOW you have it. To exert it incorrectly, well, spells disaster. One group is seeing red because the cowboys screwed them. I am seeing red because the same cowboys screwed me out of money. Perhaps your right, perhaps the time has come to whack them upside the head with a 2 X 4.

Of course, that too will be our fault as they go inside crying to mama--Oberstar

Puffdriver for PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD. Very accurate post. I do think NWALPA may cry to Oberstar, but everytime there is an extra Chap 11 (Frontier) or liquidation (4 in the past 2 weeks)---we come closer to merging or having an acquisition. (and that is what it is, since RA is giving NWA shareholders a small premium on their stock) Always beware of a Committee Chairman with an agenda of his own.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Jmoney]

Snap....

Oh smack. That is so true.


Bye Bye--General Lee

The phrase is:

"Oh, Snap!"

-Your true retarded nature shines through again! You are absolutely the stupidest person on this board!
-Retard!

 

[General Lee]

What was the first offer, EXACTLY. Oh, that's right. You and IPUFFPILOTS don't know.

Facts please, just facts.

You didn't see the part about a 15% pay raise for NWA pilots, our workrules(huge for you guys), equity (reports of up to 100K for each of us), no fences so you could bid other bases, Steenland leaving, and you keeping your pension? You missed all of that? You weren't going to be stapled, rather be within .05% of you current spot--something you would have gotten in arbitration too. But noooooooo. Our guy Moak stated in writing that it would have been within .05%. Everyone else in the WORLD except the USAir Easties would think that is a good deal. You are a smaller airline with old planes and new ones on back order that may never get here at this rate. Please come back to reality. Can you give us some facts in your offer to us? How will you compensate us for not having a pension while you get our work rules? (what each of us kept during our BKs)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

So, it seems my posts are factual, ie financial numbers, etc. and your posts are a playscript of what the shortman said happened in NY. When you give some facts that can be actually backed up, let's us know.

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.

Ah, selective retention. Your "buddies" better jump on our forum, because it is THEY who are in the 1 percent. I have posted the facts, here is a recap:

1) The merger IS going to happen
2) You have gone to arbitration as your sole means of negotiation in the past
3) NWA was NEGOTIATED more than a fair amount of the original offering just to bring them to parity with the Delta pilots. This included a 14% DC to those who were getting 0% currently
4) The Delta pilots came to NWA in the SLI with a fair list which actually gave NWA more than relative position as a good faith offer to settle it quickly, showing them shapshots of ANY pilot on their list and the difference in their career earnings under NWA stand alone plan and the plan as a merged corporation.
5) NWA holds fast that this was a negotiation, and that we needed to move from our position, while not budging from theirs.
5 1/2) NWA pilots assure the world and try and convince themselves that they have a great scope clause, a great balance sheet, a lot of money in the bank, and the ability to be baffoons.
6) Our mEC explains that this was not a negotiation, that is what the contract settlement was. This was a fair proposal from the Delta pilots, the numbers backed it up, and that they were open to suggestions.
7) Talks break down.
7 1/2) NWA pilots assure the world and try and convince themselves that they have a great scope clause, a great balance sheet, a lot of money in the bank, and the ability to be baffoons.
8) NWA came back with its tail between its legs with another proposal, which they thought benefitted them. It actually benefitted the Delta pilots more. Delta MEC accepted. Rumors floated of an agreement, NWA figured out their mistake and reneged on the deal.
9) Delta MEc informed RA that no agreement could be reached.
10) NWA MEC called again to talk about blather, blather, blather.
11) Delta MEC says no thanks.
12) Oil continues its pace, and airlines start closing doors.
12 1/2) NWA reconvince themselves that their balance sheet is great, they hold all of the cards, ATL sucks, LAX sucks, SLC sucks despite the fact that more of their commuters live near those hubs than commuting DAL pilots live near DTW, MSP.
13) Steenland gets nervous, sells out his pilots.
14) Delta pilots are informed that the pressure to get this deal done is enormous, here's a way to make it happen.
15) Delta MEC mulls over agreement yesterday and today. No official announcement as of yet.
16) NWA pilots contend that Delta pilots are greedy after robbing them of contractual gains. NWA pilots
call Delta pilots scabs after backing them into a corner and painting themselves into one.


All factual. How'd I do?

 

[nwaredtail]

You didn't see the part about a 15% pay raise for NWA pilots, our workrules(huge for you guys), equity (reports of up to 100K for each of us), no fences so you could bid other bases, Steenland leaving, and you keeping your pension? You missed all of that? You weren't going to be stapled, rather be within .05% of you current spot--something you would have gotten in arbitration too. But noooooooo. Our guy Moak stated in writing that it would have been within .05%. Everyone else in the WORLD except the USAir Easties would think that is a good deal. You are a smaller airline with old planes and new ones on back order that may never get here at this rate. Please come back to reality. Can you give us some facts in your offer to us? How will you compensate us for not having a pension while you get our work rules? (what each of us kept during our BKs)


Bye Bye--General Lee

All rumors. As far as a smaller airline, yup, this you are correct about. FINALLY. Smaller, more cash, less debt, better performance, better profits. Would you like me to stop?

Those are facts. Oh, and by the way, we keep our pension regardless of DAL. What happened to yours again?

 

[General Lee]

So, it seems my posts are factual, ie financial numbers, etc. and your posts are a playscript of what the shortman said happened in NY. When you give some facts that can be actually backed up, let's us know.

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.

Ah, selective retention. Your "buddies" better jump on our forum, because it is THEY who are in the 1 percent. I have posted the facts, here is a recap:

1) The merger IS going to happen
2) You have gone to arbitration as your sole means of negotiation in the past
3) NWA was NEGOTIATED more than a fair amount of the original offering just to bring them to parity with the Delta pilots. This included a 14% DC to those who were getting 0% currently
4) The Delta pilots came to NWA in the SLI with a fair list which actually gave NWA more than relative position as a good faith offer to settle it quickly, showing them shapshots of ANY pilot on their list and the difference in their career earnings under NWA stand alone plan and the plan as a merged corporation.
5) NWA holds fast that this was a negotiation, and that we needed to move from our position, while not budging from theirs.
5 1/2) NWA pilots assure the world and try and convince themselves that they have a great scope clause, a great balance sheet, a lot of money in the bank, and the ability to be baffoons.
6) Our mEC explains that this was not a negotiation, that is what the contract settlement was. This was a fair proposal from the Delta pilots, the numbers backed it up, and that they were open to suggestions.
7) Talks break down.
7 1/2) NWA pilots assure the world and try and convince themselves that they have a great scope clause, a great balance sheet, a lot of money in the bank, and the ability to be baffoons.
8) NWA came back with its tail between its legs with another proposal, which they thought benefitted them. It actually benefitted the Delta pilots more. Delta MEC accepted. Rumors floated of an agreement, NWA figured out their mistake and reneged on the deal.
9) Delta MEc informed RA that no agreement could be reached.
10) NWA MEC called again to talk about blather, blather, blather.
11) Delta MEC says no thanks.
12) Oil continues its pace, and airlines start closing doors.
12 1/2) NWA reconvince themselves that their balance sheet is great, they hold all of the cards, ATL sucks, LAX sucks, SLC sucks despite the fact that more of their commuters live near those hubs than commuting DAL pilots live near DTW, MSP.
13) Steenland gets nervous, sells out his pilots.
14) Delta pilots are informed that the pressure to get this deal done is enormous, here's a way to make it happen.
15) Delta MEC mulls over agreement yesterday and today. No official announcement as of yet.
16) NWA pilots contend that Delta pilots are greedy after robbing them of contractual gains. NWA pilots
call Delta pilots scabs after backing them into a corner and painting themselves into one.


All factual. How'd I do?

I'd say that is RIGHT ON.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

We could stop the merger again, and find ourselves right back where we started. Then it will come again with less. My opinion is that our MEC, of course, saw that they were playing chicken with a suicide bomber without purpose or direction, and grabbed the money and ran with their backup plan.

You blinked.

No suicide bombers, just a pilot group that has dealt with far worse than you pups for a long time.

 

[General Lee]

All rumors. As far as a smaller airline, yup, this you are correct about. FINALLY. Smaller, more cash, less debt, better performance, better profits. Would you like me to stop?

Those are facts. Oh, and by the way, we keep our pension regardless of DAL. What happened to yours again?

Wow, you are making more money. That will make RA even more happy, and our combined balance sheet look fantastic. I bet the "new Delta" will make more profits when they park the gas guzzling DC9s and old 742s. When will that happen? Eventually.

Where did our pension go? It went away with our top 2000 pilots. We did get a $650 million note for 6500 pilots, which came out to $70,000 or so for me, $46k of that going into my 401K allottment for 2008, and the rest was TAXED. Most guys under 10 years got less than $30k. Sound like a pension to you? And another fact you always forget is that we parked a bunch of planes when those guys retired--MD11s, 767-200s, 737-300/200s. The same thing is likely to happen to you now.

How are your current work rules? I hear you have 5 day trips for your DC9s? That suks. I bet there are a lot more inefficiencies that could be cleaned up with our rules. Someday you may realize them, after you realize reality. It will happen eventually.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

How exactly do the guys at NWA that actually do have the pensions, "GET" to keep their pensions? How does that even fall into your DAL guys negotiating strategy? The NWA guys with pensions arent "GETTING" to keep anything because of DAL, they got their pensions because they earned them and didnt sell theirs out. That isnt even a negotiated issue so how does that get involved with your negotiation tactics? I see a lot of seriously flawed thinking processes by mainly the DAL side IMHO.

 

[General Lee]

You blinked.

No suicide bombers, just a pilot group that has dealt with far worse than you pups for a long time.

You aren't looking at what is happing around you. Times aren't great, and oil isn't getting cheaper. And, one facilitator of this deal could always back out--Air France---who is willing to give us (a combined us) $750 million EUROS (worth over $1 billion). That means an investor who isn't a hedge fund and someone who wants our airline to stick around. This deal needs to be done soon, and without it could spell doom or another trip to the BK court for all of us. Your DC9s and 742s would continue to bring down your profits at this oil price level, and Steenland decided to sell you out. Look around you and see what is happening. Don't worry, WHEN you do agree to our FAIR SLI, you will get a nice fat raise, better rules, and access to the best NASCAR events all around the South.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Wow, you are making more money. That will make RA even more happy, and our combined balance sheet look fantastic. I bet the "new Delta" will make more profits when they park the gas guzzling DC9s and old 742s. When will that happen? Eventually.

Where did our pension go? It went away with our top 2000 pilots. We did get a $650 million note for 6500 pilots, which came out to $70,000 or so for me, $46k of that going into my 401K allottment for 2008, and the rest was TAXED. Most guys under 10 years got less than $30k. Sound like a pension to you? And another fact you always forget is that we parked a bunch of planes when those guys retired--MD11s, 767-200s, 737-300/200s. The same thing is likely to happen to you now.

How are your current work rules? I hear you have 5 day trips for your DC9s? That suks. I bet there are a lot more inefficiencies that could be cleaned up with our rules. Someday you may realize them, after you realize reality. It will happen eventually.


Bye Bye--General Lee

5 day trips are nice for commuting purposes. Makes for less commutes for those who commute. Go to work and get it over with, make sense? Not everyone likes them and not everyone does them just like anywhere else bid what you want.

 

[General Lee]

How exactly do the guys at NWA that actually do have the pensions, "GET" to keep their pensions? How does that even fall into your DAL guys negotiating strategy? The NWA guys with pensions arent "GETTING" to keep anything because of DAL, they got their pensions because they earned them and didnt sell theirs out. That isnt even a negotiated issue so how does that get involved with your negotiation tactics? I see a lot of seriously flawed thinking processes by mainly the DAL side IMHO.

Yes, you kept them, but lost your work rules. If we merge, you get our rules, but also keep the pension you kept. We don't get our pensions back, and what we did get in compensation ($650 million note) will be far less than what most NWA pilots will get when they retire. Got it? You get something back from us, but we don't get our pensions back.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

General Lee to Puff," you know, we have a lot of the same fantasies".
Puff," Yeah, I noticed that to"
General," How fast is your computer?"
Puff," Really, really fast, You want to see?"
As Puff slowly inches over," Wow, that is fast. Can I touch it?"
General,"ooohhh, you have very strong hands."
Puff,"Hey General, you know, why don't we put these computers away, turn off the lights and discuss how great our new pay raises will be"
General," you read my mind"

cue 1970 porn music

 

[General Lee]

5 day trips are nice for commuting purposes. Makes for less commutes for those who commute. Go to work and get it over with, make sense? Not everyone likes them and not everyone does them just like anywhere else bid what you want.

We have 6 day INTL trips (up to 40 hours), and even 9 day trips for crazy people who don't like their wife or kids. We also have 1 day turns(ATL-Guatemala City-ATL), 2 day trips (Bogota, Caracas), 3 day trips worth over 20 hours (ATL--Athens, Prague, Vienna, Zurich etc), 4 day trips worth about 20 hours but with 36 hour layovers down south in warm weather---Rio, Buenos Aires, Santiago, etc) just on the INTL 767-300ER in ATL. NYC has the same, and our 767-400 (765) in ATL has plenty of great trips. The 777 in ATL has a 3 day to NRT worth 28 hours, and other trips to Shanghai, Dubai, Tel Aviv, Seoul, etc. Lot's of variety for people in ATL.


Bye Bye--General Lee