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Delta and 70,90 & 110 seaters
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General Lee
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One question I would like to ask to Mr. Lee is "What if the tables were turned?" Some of you guys at mainline think there should always be someone there to help you in times of need. My question to you is this: If Comair or ASA were furloughing and Delta mainline happened to be in a great hiring mode would you be helping us with jobs and so-called hiring preference without giving up our seniority? I THINK NOT. We're both owned by the same company right? The simple answer is that people at the mainline level seem to think that stepping into a regional airline or stepping back into a regional airline temporarily is a step backwards. WRONG. At this point, in my opinion (and many others at the regional level) think it is a lateral move, and many of you at mainline hate to see that. So many people are out on the street and many, like at USAirways think they can take other peoples jobs (i.e. Jets4Jobs) and keep their seniority as well at their big brother. Thats two jobs if you ask me. Think about it. Again, this is just my opinion, so fire away at how you think, but when you're on the job I hope you treat us fellow DCI guys just like anyone else, with respect. We're just trying to make things work and keep moving in these trying times. Cya! Contact Departure 28.7
Hammer66
Hammer66
G.L.,
This idea that commuters should help out mainline with regard to this issue is not appropriate. Your MEC has continually put the other pilot groups in a position where they are, in essence, competing against you and each other, all in the name of the Delta financial statements. The ultimate bargain tool is unity. Has there been a time that the Delta MEC has tried to unify the groups, rather than fragment them, or this concept not in the "thought processes/modus operandi" of your leadership?
Cooter
in addition: WWJD?
This idea that commuters should help out mainline with regard to this issue is not appropriate. Your MEC has continually put the other pilot groups in a position where they are, in essence, competing against you and each other, all in the name of the Delta financial statements. The ultimate bargain tool is unity. Has there been a time that the Delta MEC has tried to unify the groups, rather than fragment them, or this concept not in the "thought processes/modus operandi" of your leadership?
Cooter
in addition: WWJD?
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Hammer66,
Ummmm, ok...? Can you tell me one time where one of the regionals started furloughing and the Major was not? I am waiting. It has never happened, and since you are paid less at the regionals, I doubt it will. Usually the Major furloughs, not the other way around. As far as treating DCI guys with respect, I think that since most of our recent new hires were from the regionals and not as much from the Military, I think that was absolutely starting to happen. Then some of the regionals, OK--mainly one---slapped us in the face when we needed help. Your argument doesn't make sense becuase it hasn't happened and probably won't. We all know you fly very advanced airplanes and your wages need improving, but slapping us when we need your help isn't going to help your cause in our eyes. ASA and in some way Chataqua have really helped their cases when it comes to helping our guys in need. To say that that will not be rememebered is ridiculous and wrong. When we start hiring again some time in the future, I WILL be down at the GO talking to people---you can bank on that. (I bet I won't be the only one)
Contact Departure on 28.7, and before you do, your gear is still down---Good--AYE.
Cooter,
Unity. Well, we could all have it if we had a staple and not date of hire like the senior Comair guys want. That is just unrealistic. Also, Delta wouldn't go for that, and we all know that. As far as helping us during troubled times, we already gave DCI a huge percentage increase in our overall flying---that resulted in many more upgrades. Unfortunately for ASA/Comair---Chataqua is now getting a lot of that because they are cheaper (I want to see the new TA). ASA also has a contract they are trying to negotiate, and the company is now apparently going to Comair for concessions. This is a mess, but Dalpa wants to keep our fleet around the same size so mainline doesn't die, and Comair wants to grow and is mad that we have limits that protect us. ASA just wants a pay increase, which they deserve---but the timing is bad. Mainline wants to keep big planes around with the higher salaries, and Comair wants more 70 seaters that will replace a lot of mainline---look at the current expansion of the 70 seaters----without the checks and balances the 737-200s would be gone, and so would more high paying jobs. Unity is good, unitl one side wants to take advantage of a bad situation. The Comair guys should want to eventually go up to mainline and get one of those higher paying jobs eventually. Boy, did they ruin it for themselves.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Ummmm, ok...? Can you tell me one time where one of the regionals started furloughing and the Major was not? I am waiting. It has never happened, and since you are paid less at the regionals, I doubt it will. Usually the Major furloughs, not the other way around. As far as treating DCI guys with respect, I think that since most of our recent new hires were from the regionals and not as much from the Military, I think that was absolutely starting to happen. Then some of the regionals, OK--mainly one---slapped us in the face when we needed help. Your argument doesn't make sense becuase it hasn't happened and probably won't. We all know you fly very advanced airplanes and your wages need improving, but slapping us when we need your help isn't going to help your cause in our eyes. ASA and in some way Chataqua have really helped their cases when it comes to helping our guys in need. To say that that will not be rememebered is ridiculous and wrong. When we start hiring again some time in the future, I WILL be down at the GO talking to people---you can bank on that. (I bet I won't be the only one)
Contact Departure on 28.7, and before you do, your gear is still down---Good--AYE.
Cooter,
Unity. Well, we could all have it if we had a staple and not date of hire like the senior Comair guys want. That is just unrealistic. Also, Delta wouldn't go for that, and we all know that. As far as helping us during troubled times, we already gave DCI a huge percentage increase in our overall flying---that resulted in many more upgrades. Unfortunately for ASA/Comair---Chataqua is now getting a lot of that because they are cheaper (I want to see the new TA). ASA also has a contract they are trying to negotiate, and the company is now apparently going to Comair for concessions. This is a mess, but Dalpa wants to keep our fleet around the same size so mainline doesn't die, and Comair wants to grow and is mad that we have limits that protect us. ASA just wants a pay increase, which they deserve---but the timing is bad. Mainline wants to keep big planes around with the higher salaries, and Comair wants more 70 seaters that will replace a lot of mainline---look at the current expansion of the 70 seaters----without the checks and balances the 737-200s would be gone, and so would more high paying jobs. Unity is good, unitl one side wants to take advantage of a bad situation. The Comair guys should want to eventually go up to mainline and get one of those higher paying jobs eventually. Boy, did they ruin it for themselves.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Last edited:
General.....Either you're on furlough or you need to get a life! I bet the latter. Our Mgmt. doesn't care what we want or don't want when it comes to hiring. They make the hiring decisions, not us. Delta is the same way. You can P*ss and moan all you want about the Comair pilots. Truth is a pilot is a commodity. Military, civilian there is no difference. Jet experience? I'll fly with a regional pilot through a 6-7 leg day shooting approaches all day long before I consider some Hot Shot F- 15,16...driver fresh out of Top Gun.
The RJ let the cat out of the bag... Jets are EASY to fly. And Delta isn't the only game in town for people who want to fly the Heavy Iron.
P.S Consider yourself slapped.
The RJ let the cat out of the bag... Jets are EASY to fly. And Delta isn't the only game in town for people who want to fly the Heavy Iron.
P.S Consider yourself slapped.
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Comrcap,
Ouch, that hurt. Quit it you silly little man! No, I am not furloughed and actually do have some time on my hands---being on reserve this month. Thanks for your response---and I agree that pilots are just a commodity---unless you have a union that will not budge. Then that commodity becomes a fiesty problem. But, with the contract that was signed, there isn't much that can be done. As far as the hiring, that just isn't the case at Delta. The hiring is really weighted on who you know and the wild a$$ opinions of the retired Delta pilots who are 1/2 of the interview team. I was lucky I guess and slipped in with a good interview, good testing before that, and a clean logbook. I put on a smile and I guess I was lucky. But, the eventual hiring that will happen in a couple years MAY be very subjective again, and the guy earlier who said HR would take it over is wrong. The HR people know nothing about whether or not an applicant is lying about his/her aviation career and experiences. The retired Captains have a lot of experience smelling the BS. And, the retired Captains usually have kids who work at Delta, and a lot of them are furloughed right now. Their opinions will be heard. That doesn't mean that the interviewers will do anything differently---but who knows? Didn't your MEC chair say that there were "CRM" problems with us? Hmmmm.
So, you want to find some other airline that flies big iron? Go for it. How about one that does exciting INTL flying to Europe or Asia? Go for it. ATLAS flies a lot of that. So does Polar. Fedex and UPS do alot of that too. Good luck.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Ouch, that hurt. Quit it you silly little man! No, I am not furloughed and actually do have some time on my hands---being on reserve this month. Thanks for your response---and I agree that pilots are just a commodity---unless you have a union that will not budge. Then that commodity becomes a fiesty problem. But, with the contract that was signed, there isn't much that can be done. As far as the hiring, that just isn't the case at Delta. The hiring is really weighted on who you know and the wild a$$ opinions of the retired Delta pilots who are 1/2 of the interview team. I was lucky I guess and slipped in with a good interview, good testing before that, and a clean logbook. I put on a smile and I guess I was lucky. But, the eventual hiring that will happen in a couple years MAY be very subjective again, and the guy earlier who said HR would take it over is wrong. The HR people know nothing about whether or not an applicant is lying about his/her aviation career and experiences. The retired Captains have a lot of experience smelling the BS. And, the retired Captains usually have kids who work at Delta, and a lot of them are furloughed right now. Their opinions will be heard. That doesn't mean that the interviewers will do anything differently---but who knows? Didn't your MEC chair say that there were "CRM" problems with us? Hmmmm.
So, you want to find some other airline that flies big iron? Go for it. How about one that does exciting INTL flying to Europe or Asia? Go for it. ATLAS flies a lot of that. So does Polar. Fedex and UPS do alot of that too. Good luck.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Last edited:
General Lee said:Hammer66,
Ummmm, ok...? Can you tell me one time where one of the regionals started furloughing and the Major was not? I am waiting. It has never happened, and since you are paid less at the regionals, I doubt it will. Usually the Major furloughs, not the other way around. As far as treating DCI guys with respect, I think that since most of our recent new hires were from the regionals and not as much from the Military, I think that was absolutely starting to happen. Then some of the regionals, OK--mainly one---slapped us in the face when we needed help. Your argument doesn't make sense becuase it hasn't happened and probably won't. We all know you fly very advanced airplanes and your wages need improving, but slapping us when we need your help isn't going to help your cause in our eyes. ASA and in some way Chataqua have really helped their cases when it comes to helping our guys in need. To say that that will not be rememebered is ridiculous and wrong. When we start hiring again some time in the future, I WILL be down at the GO talking to people---you can bank on that. (I bet I won't be the only one)
Contact Departure on 28.7, and before you do, your gear is still down---Good--AYE.
Cooter,
Unity. Well, we could all have it if we had a staple and not date of hire like the senior Comair guys want. That is just unrealistic. Also, Delta wouldn't go for that, and we all know that. As far as helping us during troubled times, we already gave DCI a huge percentage increase in our overall flying---that resulted in many more upgrades. Unfortunately for ASA/Comair---Chataqua is now getting a lot of that because they are cheaper (I want to see the new TA). ASA also has a contract they are trying to negotiate, and the company is now apparently going to Comair for concessions. This is a mess, but Dalpa wants to keep our fleet around the same size so mainline doesn't die, and Comair wants to grow and is mad that we have limits that protect us. ASA just wants a pay increase, which they deserve---but the timing is bad. Mainline wants to keep big planes around with the higher salaries, and Comair wants more 70 seaters that will replace a lot of mainline---look at the current expansion of the 70 seaters----without the checks and balances the 737-200s would be gone, and so would more high paying jobs. Unity is good, unitl one side wants to take advantage of a bad situation. The Comair guys should want to eventually go up to mainline and get one of those higher paying jobs eventually. Boy, did they ruin it for themselves.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Jesus Christ, will you ever give up. Also, did you know there are other majors out there to go to? Why would I want to go over there to fly w/ guys like you. Can I carry over my sicktime?
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Appears you need to do a little research padre.
Perhaps start by looking at the acquisitions of Comair and ASA. Events out of both pilots groups and employees control. In both situations, list integration was desired to no avail. Even a staple was proposed, to no avail. Fast forward to the present. Now we have the Delta crowd offering "preferential hiring", whatever that is.... All this further emphasizes the dividing line you seem to want. Your "dual seniority" concept is just as absurd.
Your concept of scope is just as flawed. You leave those companies no choice but to desire more planes--- It's their only hope.
Cooter,
Unity. Well, we could all have it if we had a staple and not date of hire like the senior Comair guys want. That is just unrealistic. Also, Delta wouldn't go for that, and we all know that. As far as helping us during troubled times, we already gave DCI a huge percentage increase in our overall flying---that resulted in many more upgrades. Unfortunately for ASA/Comair---Chataqua is now getting a lot of that because they are cheaper (I want to see the new TA). ASA also has a contract they are trying to negotiate, and the company is now apparently going to Comair for concessions. This is a mess, but Dalpa wants to keep our fleet around the same size so mainline doesn't die, and Comair wants to grow and is mad that we have limits that protect us. ASA just wants a pay increase, which they deserve---but the timing is bad. Mainline wants to keep big planes around with the higher salaries, and Comair wants more 70 seaters that will replace a lot of mainline---look at the current expansion of the 70 seaters----without the checks and balances the 737-200s would be gone, and so would more high paying jobs. Unity is good, unitl one side wants to take advantage of a bad situation. The Comair guys should want to eventually go up to mainline and get one of those higher paying jobs eventually. Boy, did they ruin it for themselves.
Perhaps start by looking at the acquisitions of Comair and ASA. Events out of both pilots groups and employees control. In both situations, list integration was desired to no avail. Even a staple was proposed, to no avail. Fast forward to the present. Now we have the Delta crowd offering "preferential hiring", whatever that is.... All this further emphasizes the dividing line you seem to want. Your "dual seniority" concept is just as absurd.
Your concept of scope is just as flawed. You leave those companies no choice but to desire more planes--- It's their only hope.
Cooter,
Unity. Well, we could all have it if we had a staple and not date of hire like the senior Comair guys want. That is just unrealistic. Also, Delta wouldn't go for that, and we all know that. As far as helping us during troubled times, we already gave DCI a huge percentage increase in our overall flying---that resulted in many more upgrades. Unfortunately for ASA/Comair---Chataqua is now getting a lot of that because they are cheaper (I want to see the new TA). ASA also has a contract they are trying to negotiate, and the company is now apparently going to Comair for concessions. This is a mess, but Dalpa wants to keep our fleet around the same size so mainline doesn't die, and Comair wants to grow and is mad that we have limits that protect us. ASA just wants a pay increase, which they deserve---but the timing is bad. Mainline wants to keep big planes around with the higher salaries, and Comair wants more 70 seaters that will replace a lot of mainline---look at the current expansion of the 70 seaters----without the checks and balances the 737-200s would be gone, and so would more high paying jobs. Unity is good, unitl one side wants to take advantage of a bad situation. The Comair guys should want to eventually go up to mainline and get one of those higher paying jobs eventually. Boy, did they ruin it for themselves.
So, you want to find some other airline that flies big iron? Go for it. How about one that does exciting INTL flying to Europe or Asia? Go for it. ATLAS flies a lot of that. So does Polar. Fedex and UPS do alot of that too. Good luck.
Bye Bye--General Lee [/B][/QUOTE]
How many people does FEDEX and UPS have on the street right now?
Bye Bye--General Lee
[/B][/QUOTE] How many people does FEDEX and UPS have on the street right now?
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
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- Posts
- 20,442
None, I believe. (even though UPS did try to furlough about 40 pilots during the War---even though they made close to $3 billion I believe in profits last year---nice) That is why I hope you apply with them--they seem like a great company---Good Luck.
Cooter,
They can desire to have as many airplanes as they want, but that won't happen unless we also grow. There is a percentage thing going on you know. It's all in the contract that Leo signed.
As far as seniority integration and staple etc, I remember talking with Captains when all this was going on during our contract negotiations no less, and the 767 captains would look at me and say, "F@ck 'um! I can't believe they are pulling this $hit during our contract negotiations..." I also had an Express jumpseater (737FO) who was the system chief pilot at Comair before he started at Delta (in 2000) and he said that Dalpa brought up preferrential hiring and other ways to get them on our property and they wanted none of it. We discussed a possible staple, and he said they wanted date of hire because many didn't want to be FO's at Delta. We all just rolled our eyes again. You can't please everybody all of the time.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Bye Bye--General Lee
Cooter,
They can desire to have as many airplanes as they want, but that won't happen unless we also grow. There is a percentage thing going on you know. It's all in the contract that Leo signed.
As far as seniority integration and staple etc, I remember talking with Captains when all this was going on during our contract negotiations no less, and the 767 captains would look at me and say, "F@ck 'um! I can't believe they are pulling this $hit during our contract negotiations..." I also had an Express jumpseater (737FO) who was the system chief pilot at Comair before he started at Delta (in 2000) and he said that Dalpa brought up preferrential hiring and other ways to get them on our property and they wanted none of it. We discussed a possible staple, and he said they wanted date of hire because many didn't want to be FO's at Delta. We all just rolled our eyes again. You can't please everybody all of the time.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Bye Bye--General Lee
Last edited:
If you feel that this happening during "negotiations" was a problem, I'd encourage you to consider that this would be be the best negotiating tool. If this is true, consider how poorly thought through it has proven to be. My friend, pilots are now on the street, contracts are being opened. Look at the contracts of some of your mainline competitors. Have preferential hiring, flow throughs etc had any long term positive benefit for anyone? No. Your comment just isn't conducive to any long term growth for any party. If you consider this short term detriment that your coworkers thought this caused on you negotiations, look at the result which is proving itself in the long run. In addition, your idea that a staple was encouraged and desired by Delta simply isn't true. Please refrain from using that argument.
General Lee
Well-known member
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Cooter,
Please re-read my posts about Delta wanting a staple------I never ever said that and know that that just isn't the case. The amount of leverage that we pilots would have would be huge, and they wouldn't go for it. I understand that this would be a good time for our groups to unite, but as long as one group wants more than the other group is willing to give up, it probably won't happen. I still think we will be going to the negotiating table again here soon, and maybe DCI will benefit, who knows?
Bye Bye--General Lee
Please re-read my posts about Delta wanting a staple------I never ever said that and know that that just isn't the case. The amount of leverage that we pilots would have would be huge, and they wouldn't go for it. I understand that this would be a good time for our groups to unite, but as long as one group wants more than the other group is willing to give up, it probably won't happen. I still think we will be going to the negotiating table again here soon, and maybe DCI will benefit, who knows?
Bye Bye--General Lee
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