Delta Air May File Bankruptcy Wed or Thurs?

[blzr]

I think that if pilots have to take a pay cut of 20-30% then so should the CEO and marketing geniouses that got the airlin in this mess anyway.

You don't get paid what you are worth, you get what you negotiate. The pilots made an offer to management in their contract, and management agreed. If they thought the deal was unreasonable then they should not have agreed to it in the first place.

The bottom line is that paycuts wouldn't be so bad if EVERYBODY gave back the came %. AND, no $4-5Million parachuts for the boobs at the top.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What you seem too ignorant to understand is that pilot wage cuts alone will not turn this company around. All stake holders have to contribute, otherwise it is futile. If GG can't get the other stake holders to come along for the ride, then CH11 is inevitable regardless of what the pilots do. If we do have to go into Ch11 because of managements failed policy, we will all have to take a cut, including you Fins.

Actually, we agree on this point. But, the pilots have more at risk than anyone else, yet they are playing hardball long after it stopped making sense to stall.

The Delta MEC has not had the cojones to make the tough decisions needed to try to save the Company. Now they wait for Chapter 11 to provide them with political cover.

If you told me that you were just trying to get your money and get out I would conceede that the MEC's position achieves that goal.

If you told me that the Delta MEC wants Delta to survive because Delta's survival is most important to its pilots - then I would say they have failed.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I think that if pilots have to take a pay cut of 20-30% then so should the CEO and marketing geniouses that got the airlin in this mess anyway.

Uh' Er'... They all left the Company. Delta's President now runs Virgin and the CEO retired with a 16 million dollar bankruptcy protected payment.

You don't get paid what you are worth, you get what you negotiate...

Not true. Economics and the market are more powerful than collective bargaining agreements. Ask pilots of Braniff, Pan Am, Eastern.... all of which used to make much more than Delta pilots. If you look back into the history of the airline business, having industry leading pay is the harbinger for eventual failure of the business.

The Delta MEC used to understand this dynamic. A former DAL Captain's Rep who is a dear friend told me that "We did not make the money the Pan Am, or the Eastern pilots did - but we understood that a little less pay paid dividends in security.... I made more money than I ever dreamed I would make. But the guys who are running the show now are crazy. They will kill Delta. There just isn't the money to afford Contract 2000."

He said that five years ago and he was right.

 

[grinder]

Whaaaa?

"Third: You can cut my earnings by 25%. It does not make much a difference, based on last year's W2 it would be $11,800. Enough money to buy the fuel to do a ATL-DFW round trip with an RJ. Now if you take 25% of one of those $200,000 First Officers you get four times as much. But, if you cut my wages by 25% I'll use up my sick time, then quit ( or vote for a strike ), and do my other job which netted me several 1099's totalling more than six figures. I will be better off and enjoy flying my Beechcraft around."


Fins, you make no sense.

If you're making this much jack and you would be better off, why the heck would you put up with being a commuter pilot vs. flying your own sled for fun? Lots of guys are bypassing recall at DAL with less than that coming in so they don't have to put up with the mainline BS. I have to question your logic, and thus your previous 1000 posts or so......unless ASA just hired a bunch of blazing hot FA's that never work while I non-rev.

Just curious,

Grinder

 

[~~~^~~~]

Grinder - Pragmatically you are right. But I like flying the RJ and enjoy what I do at ASA. Eventually I would like to just fly for a living and enjoy the rest of my time. Having your own business is like being on reserve 24/7.

 

[FDJ2]

Fins, I won't even respond to your RJDC rantings, they just seem like the same old tired half truths we've all come to expect from the RJDC crowd and their failing lawsuit. By the way, I'm impressed by your devil may care attitude towards your ASA career. Don't think for a second that ASA would miss you when your gone if you had to take a 25% pay cut, they'd have PFTers lining up to whore themselves out for the opportunity to fly an RJ. Which brings up the question of what is your market rate? I'm guessing far less then you think, but luckily you have an ALPA contract. But I digress.


Fins, of course I'm better off with Delta, but the only reason is because of my MEC , which has done a great job for not only Delta pilots, but for the profession as a whole. Here are some facts for you Fins and Medfler too, DAL has posted over a $3B net loss in GG's first 9 months despite a decrease in mainline fuel nuetralized CASM of 3.7%. Some how you want to blame those losses on Delta pilots, even though several months ago the Delta pilots offered the largest concession in the industry and management has refused to take it. The bottom line is that Delta pilots can not manage this company from the cockpit and it is not the Delta pilots job to lead the concessionary charge. We have a contract that was mutually agreed to by management and the pilots, if management wants concessions they'll be negotiated in accordance with long standing procedures embodied in Federal Law, The ALPA C&BLs and the ALPA administrative manual. The Delta pilots will not give a concession just to buy a couple of months out of BK, the Delta pilots rightfully will not bear the full concessionary burden and the Delta pilots should rightfully expect a return on their investment. At the end of the day Pilot concessions alone can not keep Delta out of BK and it is in the best interests of Delta pilots to ensure that if we do come to an agreement with management, that there is a sharing of the burden by all stake holders, that management actually has a plan to avoid BK and that there are adequate upside protections for the Delta pilots.

 

[AA717driver]

We're seeing that the legacies can't compete with the LCC's because of a variety of things. Even when DAL pilots are making what AA pilots are, they, too will have trouble making money.

It's the infrastructure, stupid.

All this ranting is just whistling past the graveyard...TC

 

[spinproof]

Fins, I won't even respond to your RJDC rantings, they just seem like the same old tired half truths we've all come to expect from the RJDC crowd and their failing lawsuit. By the way, I'm impressed by your devil may care attitude towards your ASA career. Don't think for a second that ASA would miss you when your gone if you had to take a 25% pay cut, they'd have PFTers lining up to whore themselves out for the opportunity to fly an RJ. Which brings up the question of what is your market rate? I'm guessing far less then you think, but luckily you have an ALPA contract. But I digress..

Yes you do digress and you pontificate. Most of all you have no clue as to what the Regional Jet Defense Coalition actually is. That or you choose to ignor ALPA's preditory practice of favoring one pilot group over another. I would think if the shoe was on the other foot,so to speak, you would find merit in such an endeavor. Or do you feel fair representation is only fair when it favors your group?

To disdain PFT's as whores is your thought process. If we checked into your background I think we would find a little PFT somewhere it's just a mater of how much.

Futhermore the market rate for ASA and COMAIR (income vs. expense)seems to be inline with their business model.

Since ASA is running ads on hiring pilots I would think they would certainly miss fins. Then again that is coming from one who I feel certain wouldn't.

 

[Vortilon]

You know guys, the time for pointing fingers has been over with for a looooooooong time. To quote our esteemed President, we have a lot of "hard work" ahead and I suggest we all check out attitudes at the door and get behind our Company & Union leadership this week. We'll dig ourselves out of this hole collectively but one of the first steps is to quit blaming everyone for our problems and move on.

The fact is we'll only have limited ability to keep people from making similar mistakes in the future anyway.

 

[DAL737FO]

I truly wish you and your family the best. Like I said, we have been there. My father went from a 747 CA to a gas station attendant at a Citgo when Flying Tigers went T.U. I remember those days....

~~~^~~~
Fins,

When did Flying Tigers go T.U.? If memory serves me correctly they were bought by FedEx. I was a ramp rat at Tigers a lifetime ago.

B-727 Freight Dawg

 

[737 Pylt]

I truly wish you and your family the best. Like I said, we have been there. My father went from a 747 CA to a gas station attendant at a Citgo when Flying Tigers went T.U. I remember those days....

~~~^~~~
Fins,

When did Flying Tigers go T.U.? If memory serves me correctly they were bought by FedEx. I was a ramp rat at Tigers a lifetime ago.

B-727 Freight Dawg

Yeah, but it makes for such a nice rjdc spin. Something fins and his pals are famous for!
737

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

You know guys, the time for pointing fingers has been over with for a looooooooong time. To quote our esteemed President, we have a lot of "hard work" ahead and I suggest we all check out attitudes at the door and get behind our Company & Union leadership this week. We'll dig ourselves out of this hole collectively but one of the first steps is to quit blaming everyone for our problems and move on.

The fact is we'll only have limited ability to keep people from making similar mistakes in the future anyway.

Excellent post, Vortilon. Seems there are a few people who can see through all of the bullets flying...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tigers was going up for sale piece meal before they got very lucky and were bought by Fed Ex. They had furloughed most of the Seaboard guys. Of the first 16 years of his career, he was furloughed for 9.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Excellent post, Vortilon. Seems there are a few people who can see through all of the bullets flying...

Yes, but this problem requires a solution.

 

[~~~^~~~]

By the way, I'm impressed by your devil may care attitude towards your ASA career.

I think it is odd that I care more about Delta's future than you do. You have a lot more to lose than I do.

Just make sure you get yours ( and our's and that other guy's too ) because by golly your MEC is empowered to do it.

Look, I agree that our industry needs a union. But allowing ALPA National to get hijacked by predators only started the race to the bottom.

Unions are inclusive. Unions bring together employees for the purpose of collective bargaining. ALPA is not acting much like a union.

 

[FDJ2]

Yes you do digress and you pontificate. Most of all you have no clue as to what the Regional Jet Defense Coalition actually is.

I'm quite aware of what the RJDC is and the weakness of their case. Have a good day.

 

[enigma]

Caution, Thread Hijack

To disdain PFT's as whores is your thought process. If we checked into your background I think we would find a little PFT somewhere it's just a mater of how much.

spinproof, I should be in Church this morning, but I got stuck with a reserve day. So, I've got not much more to do than sit here waiting for the phone to ring and read this bbs.

Your attempt to justify PFT with this weak, "we would find a little PFT somewhere" , is just spin. PFT is very well defined as the situation where someone BUYS A JOB. Period. I don't know if the person to which you refer bought a job or not, and I suspect that you don't either. His past isn't what matters. What matters is that guys like you try and justify BUYING A FLIPPIN JOB, by making lame claims that everyone bought a job. That's just plain crap. Most pilots had the good sense to avoid buying their job.

Don't try and imply that buying your training from a flight school is in any way equal to buying a job.

Some of us have/had the class to avoid being scum. I know of at least one pilot who walked out of a Boston-Maine Captain school when he realized that he was in line to be used to break the union at B-M's alter-ego. This guy walked away from the left seat of a 727 rather than screw his fellow pilots. We need more like him and fewer that feel ok about buying a job.

enigma

 

[FDJ2]

To disdain PFT's as whores is your thought process. If we checked into your background I think we would find a little PFT somewhere it's just a mater of how much.

What's the matter Spin, did I hit a little close to home. Sorry to disappoint you, but I never had to pay my employer for a job. No PFT in my background Spin, but I suspect you might have payed for your job through a PFT scheme judging by your defensiveness on the matter.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Geez...what was this thread about again.....?

 

[michael707767]

No PFT in my background Spin, but I suspect you might have payed for your job through a PFT scheme judging by your defensiveness on the matter.

FDJ2,
I personally take offense to any comments about PFT. I was former Air Force, so I don't think I was unqualified and had to pay for a job. I did PFT and I would do it again. Why? Couple of reasons. Coming out of the Air Force, I had two job offers. One at ValuJet, the other Trans States. Even after you subtract out the 9500 training cost me at VJ, I was going to make more first year there and would be flying a DC-9 instead of a prop. To me, it was an easy choice. I made a choice about what I thought would be best for my career, and I am sure everyone who ever did PFT made the same choice. Though I think its BS for the airline to do PFT, I don't judge anyone who has done it.