Delta Air May File Bankruptcy Wed or Thurs?

[737 Pylt]

I truly wish you and your family the best. Like I said, we have been there. My father went from a 747 CA to a gas station attendant at a Citgo when Flying Tigers went T.U. I remember those days....

~~~^~~~
Fins,

When did Flying Tigers go T.U.? If memory serves me correctly they were bought by FedEx. I was a ramp rat at Tigers a lifetime ago.

B-727 Freight Dawg

Yeah, but it makes for such a nice rjdc spin. Something fins and his pals are famous for!
737

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

You know guys, the time for pointing fingers has been over with for a looooooooong time. To quote our esteemed President, we have a lot of "hard work" ahead and I suggest we all check out attitudes at the door and get behind our Company & Union leadership this week. We'll dig ourselves out of this hole collectively but one of the first steps is to quit blaming everyone for our problems and move on.

The fact is we'll only have limited ability to keep people from making similar mistakes in the future anyway.

Excellent post, Vortilon. Seems there are a few people who can see through all of the bullets flying...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tigers was going up for sale piece meal before they got very lucky and were bought by Fed Ex. They had furloughed most of the Seaboard guys. Of the first 16 years of his career, he was furloughed for 9.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Excellent post, Vortilon. Seems there are a few people who can see through all of the bullets flying...

Yes, but this problem requires a solution.

 

[~~~^~~~]

By the way, I'm impressed by your devil may care attitude towards your ASA career.

I think it is odd that I care more about Delta's future than you do. You have a lot more to lose than I do.

Just make sure you get yours ( and our's and that other guy's too ) because by golly your MEC is empowered to do it.

Look, I agree that our industry needs a union. But allowing ALPA National to get hijacked by predators only started the race to the bottom.

Unions are inclusive. Unions bring together employees for the purpose of collective bargaining. ALPA is not acting much like a union.

 

[FDJ2]

Yes you do digress and you pontificate. Most of all you have no clue as to what the Regional Jet Defense Coalition actually is.

I'm quite aware of what the RJDC is and the weakness of their case. Have a good day.

 

[enigma]

Caution, Thread Hijack

To disdain PFT's as whores is your thought process. If we checked into your background I think we would find a little PFT somewhere it's just a mater of how much.

spinproof, I should be in Church this morning, but I got stuck with a reserve day. So, I've got not much more to do than sit here waiting for the phone to ring and read this bbs.

Your attempt to justify PFT with this weak, "we would find a little PFT somewhere" , is just spin. PFT is very well defined as the situation where someone BUYS A JOB. Period. I don't know if the person to which you refer bought a job or not, and I suspect that you don't either. His past isn't what matters. What matters is that guys like you try and justify BUYING A FLIPPIN JOB, by making lame claims that everyone bought a job. That's just plain crap. Most pilots had the good sense to avoid buying their job.

Don't try and imply that buying your training from a flight school is in any way equal to buying a job.

Some of us have/had the class to avoid being scum. I know of at least one pilot who walked out of a Boston-Maine Captain school when he realized that he was in line to be used to break the union at B-M's alter-ego. This guy walked away from the left seat of a 727 rather than screw his fellow pilots. We need more like him and fewer that feel ok about buying a job.

enigma

 

[FDJ2]

To disdain PFT's as whores is your thought process. If we checked into your background I think we would find a little PFT somewhere it's just a mater of how much.

What's the matter Spin, did I hit a little close to home. Sorry to disappoint you, but I never had to pay my employer for a job. No PFT in my background Spin, but I suspect you might have payed for your job through a PFT scheme judging by your defensiveness on the matter.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Geez...what was this thread about again.....?

 

[michael707767]

No PFT in my background Spin, but I suspect you might have payed for your job through a PFT scheme judging by your defensiveness on the matter.

FDJ2,
I personally take offense to any comments about PFT. I was former Air Force, so I don't think I was unqualified and had to pay for a job. I did PFT and I would do it again. Why? Couple of reasons. Coming out of the Air Force, I had two job offers. One at ValuJet, the other Trans States. Even after you subtract out the 9500 training cost me at VJ, I was going to make more first year there and would be flying a DC-9 instead of a prop. To me, it was an easy choice. I made a choice about what I thought would be best for my career, and I am sure everyone who ever did PFT made the same choice. Though I think its BS for the airline to do PFT, I don't judge anyone who has done it.

 

[79%N1]

Posted bu FDJ2

"They'd have PFTers lining up to whore themselves out for the opportunity to fly an RJ. "

Hey JackA$$ d!ckwad.......

No wonder you Delta pr!cks are despised! First off, ASA is not pay for training, since 1999. I work for ASA, and your comments are offensive. I did not, nor ever have paid for training. Those that did were hired in a time when most every regional charged them for their initial training. Yes, it sucked that this was the norm in the mid to late 90's. But those pilots did what they had to do at that time, much like EVERY PILOT AT SWA WHO PAYS FOR THEIR OWN 737 TYPE BEFORE BEING HIRED!!!!!!!!!

But, to claim the only people who are looking to be hired at ASA are 'whores" is rediculous and shows your class. ASA has a fine group of dedicated, professional pilots.....and currently is hiring only highly qualified pilots ----- many with years of 121 experience! I never wish ill on any pilot group or individual, but I can only hope Delta furloughs you one day and you come crawling to ASA with your tail between your legs!

 

[Otto]

Which brings up the question of what is your market rate? I'm guessing far less then you think, but luckily you have an ALPA contract.

His rate is a h*ll of a lot closer to the market than yours pal. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Delta, Pilots Recess with No Deal
ATLANTA (AP) Delta Air Lines and its pilots union recessed today from negotiations over concessions without reaching an agreement.
A union spokeswoman says the two sides will resume talks tomorrow in the Washington, DC area. The Atlanta-based airline says it needs one billion dollars in concessions from its pilots to avoid bankruptcy. The pilots have publicly offered up to 705 million dollars in savings.

Delta, the nation's third-largest carrier, says that even with the concessions, it still may have to file for bankruptcy because of its heavy debt.

The company and pilots had been negotiating the last several days in south Florida.

(Copyright 2004 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

 

[FDJ2]

Hey JackA$$ d!ckwad.......

No wonder you Delta pr!cks are despised! First off, ASA is not pay for training, since 1999. I work for ASA, and your comments are offensive.

79% thanks for proving my point. ASA, as you pointed out has used PFT before and obviously had no problem finding folks willing to pay for their job. To bad you find it offensive, but I could careless.

But those pilots did what they had to do at that time

I'm sure a lot of pilots justify their actions in the same manner when they crossed a picket line. "I had to do it at the time because........" fill in your reason.

much like EVERY PILOT AT SWA WHO PAYS FOR THEIR OWN 737 TYPE BEFORE BEING HIRED!!!!!!!!!

I have to raise the BS flag here 79%, SWA does not require any pilot to pay SWA or any SWA subsidiary for a 737 type. SWA only requires that you have one, where or how you get it is your own business.

But, to claim the only people who are looking to be hired at ASA are 'whores" is rediculous and shows your class.

79%, engage the other 21% of your brain, I never made any such claim, I only pointed out the obvious, that ASA would have no problem finding PFTers all too willing to pay for the opportunity to fly an RJ. As you pointed out, they had no problem up until 1999 filling their ranks with PFTers, and we all know how hard it was in the late 1990s to find a job. NOT. Have a nice day.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Hey FDJ:

If some guys at ASApaid for thier training, they have already contributed - so they would be exempt from the pay cuts you need to see ASA employees take so you feel better!?!

 

[FDJ2]

Hey FDJ:

If some guys at ASApaid for thier training, they have already contributed - so they would be exempt from the pay cuts you need to see ASA employees take so you feel better!?!

That's funny, but seriously, it's not what makes me feel better that will cause the downward pressure at ASA. Quite frankly, DAL has lost $3B in the last 9 months. Those losses are unsustainable and DAL pilot concessions could not have prevented a $3B loss in 9 months. DALPA has known that all along, that's why DALPA has rightly taken the position that pilot concessions must be part of a comprehensive restructuring of Delta, since Delta pilot concessions alone could not prevent the inevitable filing of CH11 absent a comprehensive restructuring. In order to survive DAL will have to restructure not only DAL pilot pay, but its debt, non-contract employee compensation and its contracts with its DCI partners among other things. What I feel or what I want doesn't matter, because it will happen regarless of what you think makes me feel better.

 

[Medeco]

Jerk

You, actually are a disgrace to the Delta pilots.

Its a real shame they could not see this side of you when you interviewed for your job with Delta.

I have never met a Delta pilot like yourself.

Ohh I take that back, one time Peachtree city met a guy like you, he ended up cleaning the local police cars for community service for his pompus a$$ remarks to a judge about a speeding ticket.

Probably your best friend, or dad. Whatta Jerk!

Medeco

 

[DAL737FO]

Why exactly is FDJ2 a disgrace to Delta pilots? I've gone back and read every post in this thread. He has, and I'm summarizing here, that Delta is going to need more than just pilot cuts. He has also brought up that ASA used to be PFT and it was until 1999 as was pointed out. This whole bankruptcy/alter ego airlines/RJDC stuff is all a matter of opinion. I'm a furloughed Delta pilot. Do I think we need to take a pay cut...yes and we have offered. 23% to be exact and that total will probably go up. The current CEO has decided to take an all or nothing stance. My personal opinion is that he has failed in his fiduciary responsibility to the stockholders by not accepting that offer. I guess the main heartache that all Delta pilots have is the lack of a plan for these concessions.



B-727 Freight Dawg

 

[79%N1]

Insinuating that the ranks of ASA pilots is filled with 'whore's', or that future ASA pilots will be 'whores' IS offensive and CLASSLESS!!!!

Have a nice day!

 

[DAL737FO]

Insinuating that the ranks of ASA pilots is filled with 'whore's', or that future ASA pilots will be 'whores' IS offensive and CLASSLESS!!!!

Have a nice day!

79%,

I think you need to go back and reread the posts. I think he makes a very valid point that we, meaning pilots, are our own worse enemy.

"Don't think for a second that ASA would miss you when your gone if you had to take a 25% pay cut, they'd have PFTers lining up to whore themselves out for the opportunity to fly an RJ. "

I would bet any takers that if ASA announced a 25% pay cut, like FDJ2 states above, and ASA management in the same memo announces PFT is back in effect that they wouldn't miss a class. That is the sad part of our industry. There is always someone out there that will do it for less or even worse free in order to get ahead. How many times have you heard something like this:

"I know the pay sucks there but their upgrade time is only 6 months, I'm going to get my 1,000 hours of PIC time and move on"

Here is one from the old FBO:

"I'll fly for free and wash the airplane if you let me log the right seat turbine time"

B-727 Freight Dawg

 

[SWA/FO]

You Delta guys are true professionals.

Is it as simple as Military (Delta) vs. Civilian (ASA)? How many former military guys at DAL mainline flew for ASA (or another commuter)? My guess is probably not a high number? (these are questions) Why does the DAL mainline pilots hate the commuters so much, when they are infact funding their paycheck?

 

[sleepy]

There is nothing to stop DAL from starting PFT at mainline. They could make all of the pilots recalled from furlough pay for their re-training. It is really a pretty good idea.

I wonder how many DAL pilots would quit if they did this? My guess is that they would all pay the $10,000 to keep their jobs. After all, someday they might have a chance to be 767 Captains making $150,000 per year (after concesions). It would be an investment in their futures. And it would make DAL around $16 million. Everybody wins!

 

[Heavy Set]

There is nothing to stop DAL from starting PFT at mainline. They could make all of the pilots recalled from furlough pay for their re-training. It is really a pretty good idea.

I wonder how many DAL pilots would quit if they did this? My guess is that they would all pay the $10,000 to keep their jobs. After all, someday they might have a chance to be 767 Captains making $150,000 per year (after concesions). It would be an investment in their futures. And it would make DAL around $16 million. Everybody wins!

Personally, I don't think your sarcastic post is very funny. Sure, you might have a cherry corporate job right now (I know which company you fly for), but you are potentially a merger or bad recession away from your own furlough. There are a lot of very concerned and stressed-out people out there and this statement is not very helpful or professional. Just my $0.02.

 

[sleepy]

Personally, I don't think your sarcastic post is very funny. Sure, you might have a cherry corporate job right now (I know which company you fly for), but you are potentially a merger or bad recession away from your own furlough. There are a lot of very concerned and stressed-out people out there and this statement is not very helpful or professional. Just my $0.02.

Well, I was just being sarcastic, like you said Heavy Set. I didn't really intend for the post to be taken seriously, sorry if I offended.

 

[FDJ2]

Insinuating that the ranks of ASA pilots is filled with 'whore's', or that future ASA pilots will be 'whores' IS offensive and CLASSLESS!!!!

Have a nice day!

79%, try engaging the rest of your brain, there's a wealth of potential in there if you choose to use it sometime in the future.

 

[BAFAN]

Can we all hold hands and sing Kumbayah?

 

[spinproof]

I'm quite aware of what the RJDC is and the weakness of their case. Have a good day.

Thanks. That would certainly explain why the majority of court challenges by ALPA's attorneys have been denied while the majority of court challenges by the RJDC's attorney has been upheld.

 

[spinproof]

Your attempt to justify PFT with this weak, "we would find a little PFT somewhere" , is just spin. PFT is very well defined as the situation where someone BUYS A JOB. Period. I don't know if the person to which you refer bought a job or not, and I suspect that you don't either. His past isn't what matters. What matters is that guys like you try and justify BUYING A FLIPPIN JOB, by making lame claims that everyone bought a job. That's just plain crap. Most pilots had the good sense to avoid buying their job.

Don't try and imply that buying your training from a flight school is in any way equal to buying a job.

Some of us have/had the class to avoid being scum. I know of at least one pilot who walked out of a Boston-Maine Captain school when he realized that he was in line to be used to break the union at B-M's alter-ego. This guy walked away from the left seat of a 727 rather than screw his fellow pilots. We need more like him and fewer that feel ok about buying a job.

enigma

Pointing out the fact we all had to pay something is not spin nor is it an implication. It is a direct response to those of you that feel it necessary to belittle a group of people in deference to their own plight. Where the line is drawn is clear only from your vantage point. Is there a difference in paying for a job and paying for a type rating?

As for having class and avoiding being scum I don't see evidence of either in your post.

 

[79%N1]

Whatever FDJ!!!!

I'm not using my brain because I find your posts consistently offensive to Regional pilots. If your IQ is 1 point higher than mine, I'll walk to your house and eat your snow tires! Just because your at mainline Delta makes you NO BETTER or smarter than me.


DAL737

One fundamental flaw.....upgrade at ASA/Comair is nowhere near 6 months, and no self-respecting or half intelligent (I qualify because I at least use 79% of my brain) thinks that they will get their 1000 PIC and head to a major! (Airtran/Jetblue ---- maybe) I have been at ASA nearly 3 years and am at least 2-3 years from upgrade.

I dont buy any of the excuses. FDJ2 is anti-regional pilot, period!

 

[enigma]

Pointing out the fact we all had to pay something is not spin nor is it an implication. It is a direct response to those of you that feel it necessary to belittle a group of people in deference to their own plight. Where the line is drawn is clear only from your vantage point. Is there a difference in paying for a job and paying for a type rating?

As for having class and avoiding being scum I don't see evidence of either in your post.

spinproof, you're argument is disengenous. You first posted in response to FDJ when he said that ASA could find plenty of people to PFT. You obviously took offense and you obviously know that PFT stands for "buy a job", otherwise you wouldn't have reacted with your attempt to drag all of the pilots who have honorably obtained flight training into your side with your implication.

Then you go and ask if there is a difference between buying a job and buying a type rating. In your own question, you admit that you are not arguing for buying training, your arguing the question of buying a job. You lose.

As far as my "scum" statement, I was just playing your game. You want to link me buying my private, with you buying your job, but you can't stand it when I link a PFT'r to a scab.
Not that consider PFT'rs scabs, they are not. Nothing is as low as a scab. Not even some poor uniformed soul who paid for a job that could have been obtained for free.

enigma

you can have the last word