Delay Gear Extension in icing?

[Checks]

I flew with a guy who insists that you should wait to extend the landing gear while in icing conditions. He said the brakes could not work if you leave the gear down in icing. Being a former frieght dog I was surprised I had never heard of this. What say you guys?

 

[Checks]

What do you guys think?

 

[overseas boy]

Never heard of it, but to leave the gear down for a while after t/o on a contaminated runway to allow slush to dispersed and hence not freeze the brakes at altitude enroute, now that i have heard of!!

 

[Jar Jar]

it'd have to be some good fzra or clear ice to freeze ur brakes. a dusting of rime ice won't do anything cold temps in the wheel wells wouldn't already have done.

 

[semperfido]

You got to ask yourself is it worth disrupting the normal flow in the cockpit? I have never done this and never had an issue. It could be a consideration in heavy icing conditions, but not normally.

 

[onionluvr]

I flew with a guy who insists that you should wait to extend the landing gear while in icing conditions. He said the brakes could not work if you leave the gear down in icing. Being a former frieght dog I was surprised I had never heard of this. What say you guys?

I've never heard of brakes freezing up and not working. I have however heard of them freezing up after application and then not being able to move.

 

[WayBack]

You got to ask yourself is it worth disrupting the normal flow in the cockpit?

Have you ever had a day where the normal flow of the cockpit wasn't distracted?

As to the original question, it would have to be some pretty heavy icing to get into your brakes and lock 'em up.

 

[semperfido]

Have you ever had a day where the normal flow of the cockpit wasn't distracted?

Actually, yes. Almost every flight. I try to do things the same way every flight. Not to say I don't adapt, but routine things like when I put the gear down etc, samo samo. Some icing wouldn't change that was my point.

 

[WSurf]

I fly the Dash 8 and only once did I hold off on the gear. It was really good icing. But then again look how the Dash 8's Landing gear hangs out.

I believe the CommutAir 1900D's were equiped with Brake Deice. Hot Bleed air Lines ran down to the brakes. Great option for flying in the North East.

 

[pilotyip]

Unauthorized Procedures = Death

How many accidents have been caused by iced up brakes? By changing procedures to aviod a non-problem you may be introducing a greater problem. Remember Hibbing, MN and the Express One JetStream-31 fatal accident. Express One pilots had developed an unauthroized procedure to fly through icing, it was called the slam dunk. Fly over the IAF at about 6.000' over the published altitude, and then flt idle descent in an unstablized apporach to cross the FAF on altitude. Icing was never problem, but slamming the airplane into the ground at 2,500/min descent was the result. 18 dead, 2 crew 16 pax

 

[buscap]

Certification requires transport category aircraft demonstrate a lack of problems with this. But of course if you are in severe icing, by definition you shouldn't be trying to land anyway.

Now, if you are talking about a Piper Cadet...what the heck are you doing in icing in the first place?

 

[crj567]

Certification requires transport category aircraft demonstrate a lack of problems with this. But of course if you are in severe icing, by definition you shouldn't be trying to land anyway.

Now, if you are talking about a Piper Cadet...what the heck are you doing in icing in the first place?

If you have gear extension problems in a Piper Cadet, you have some serious issues.

 

[say again]

If you have gear extension problems in a Piper Cadet, you have some serious issues.

hahahaha, i was thinking the same thing.

 

[veneratio]

Do what you get paid to do, follow the SOP procedures.

 

[rjacobs]

I have never heard of delaying dropping the gear. I wouldn't think they would be problematic because they are not really an aerodynamic surface. When you fly through real bad icing, where there is still some on the plane when you land, have you ever seen it on any parts of the plane that are not aerodynamic surfaces? I have only really seen it left on the radome and the wing nav light covers, usually the fuselage is clean.

Never heard of it, but to leave the gear down for a while after t/o on a contaminated runway to allow slush to dispersed and hence not freeze the brakes at altitude enroute, now that i have heard of!!

We were specifically told, at least for the EMB-145, in our winter ops this year to not leave the gear down and to retract at a normal time. Other planes may have different procedures.

 

[Dutch]

I would think the greater concern would be building a large amount of ice on the gear and then retracting it during a go-around. The chances of disturbing brake operation seems remote. I don't delay extension of the gear, just thinking out loud.

 

[CX880]

Throw em out there son.

 

[doh]

I seem to remember something from the EMB-120 about holding clean because of ice accumulation. But on approach? Just fly it normally.

 

[Cardinal]

If I'm so iced up I'm power limited, that seems like a prudent occasion to delay gear extension. But if a/c performance is nominal, gear extension should be at the normal time = as late as possible within the confines of a stable approach.

 

[701EV]

Never heard of it!

 

[Nack55]

We drag the brakes a bit on before takeoff to warm them up, then leave them down a little longer to get the slush off. On landing, same procedure as usual to put them down, but we will turn the antiskid off and pump the brakes a few times to brake any ice that could have formed on the brakes.

 

[Going2Baja]

Do what you get paid to do, follow the SOP procedures.

There ya have it. To do anything else is to operate outside the safety of the SOP. Our SOP has the gear dropping just prior or at the final appch fix - how much longer would your Capt suggest to wait to drop the gear? This sounds like an accident/incident waiting to happen.

One thing to remember....If you do what your SOP says you will be safe. Be not afraid to tell the Capt, "Nope, sorry guy - I'm not doing that. We can talk to the CP later if you wish - but I'm not operating outside the manual."

Good luck!!

Baja.

 

[Fltlvls]

There ya have it. To do anything else is to operate outside the safety of the SOP. Our SOP has the gear dropping just prior or at the final appch fix - how much longer would your Capt suggest to wait to drop the gear? This sounds like an accident/incident waiting to happen.

One thing to remember....If you do what your SOP says you will be safe. Be not afraid to tell the Capt, "Nope, sorry guy - I'm not doing that. We can talk to the CP later if you wish - but I'm not operating outside the manual."

Good luck!!

Baja.

Sounds like good advice to me. Last thing I would want is to do a carpet dance in front of the CP because I went outside SOP and possibly forgetting to put the spark arresters down because I wanted to delay it due to icing.That would be 15 minutes of fame I wouldn't want.

 

[DoinTime]

Remember Hibbing, MN and the Express One JetStream-31 fatal accident. Express One pilots had developed an unauthroized procedure to fly through icing, it was called the slam dunk. Fly over the IAF at about 6.000' over the published altitude, and then flt idle descent in an unstablized apporach to cross the FAF on altitude. Icing was never problem, but slamming the airplane into the ground at 2,500/min descent was the result. 18 dead, 2 crew 16 pax

The pilots of Express I did not invent the "slam dunk" nor did the maneuver die with those unfortunate 18 souls. The most unfortunate thing is that these types of "creative" procedures will always exist so long as pilots are willing to operate aircraft into weather they are not intended to operate in.

 

[pilotyip]

The pilots of Express I did not invent the "slam dunk" nor did the maneuver die with those unfortunate 18 souls. The most unfortunate thing is that these types of "creative" procedures will always exist so long as pilots are willing to operate aircraft into weather they are not intended to operate in.

So you are saying JS couldn’t handle the icing conditions? From former JS pilots I have been told that the JS was OK in icing, it handled it like it was supposed to. The DO, CP and POI were relived of their duties because of this accident the NTSB said these individuals were aware of this unauthorized procedures, but allowed it to continue. Not to mention that he Captain a former Nuc Power Plant Officer had flunked checkrides 6, 15, and 24 months prior to the accident.

 

[Hobit]

What do you guys think?

I think a 10 pound rooster is a lot of Cok!

I've heard the same thing about extending the gear, but I have never seen anything written.

Leaving gear extended on T/O is on the CRJ MEL... I know I've done it but can't remember what the 'fault' requiring the delayed retraction. It's been 1.5 years since I flew that thing. Can anyone tell me if I am mixing this and something else up?

 

[Erlanger]

I flew with a guy who insists that you should wait to extend the landing gear while in icing conditions. He said the brakes could not work if you leave the gear down in icing. Being a former frieght dog I was surprised I had never heard of this. What say you guys?

When the wheels touchdown, spin up and you apply brakes, do you have any idea how much heat is generated? It sounds like a good way to forget to put the gear down though.

 

[DoinTime]

So you are saying JS couldn’t handle the icing conditions? From former JS pilots I have been told that the JS was OK in icing, it handled it like it was supposed to.

I fly with many former J-ball pilots and to the last man they say it performed OK in light icing. More than that and you had a problem.

The DO, CP and POI were relived of their duties because of this accident the NTSB said these individuals were aware of this unauthorized procedures, but allowed it to continue. Not to mention that he Captain a former Nuc Power Plant Officer had flunked checkrides 6, 15, and 24 months prior to the accident.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the topic. Clearly, you just have an axe to grind.

 

[DoinTime]

Leaving gear extended on T/O is on the CRJ MEL... I know I've done it but can't remember what the 'fault' requiring the delayed retraction. It's been 1.5 years since I flew that thing. Can anyone tell me if I am mixing this and something else up?

That MEL is for the gear bay overheat sensor(s) being inoperative.

 

[Hobit]

That MEL is for the gear bay overheat sensor(s) being inoperative.

Thanks... It has been a while.