Defending Chautauqua

[Axel]

Not holding my breath

I am finished with the Regional threads until once again they get back to being professional in content.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

071qhc,

The fact of the matter is you threw your FOs under the bus with pay. Plain and simple.

If you want respect, look in the mirror, don't try and find it cyberspaces' version of Lord of the Flies.

 

[TWAER]

071qhc,

The fact of the matter is you threw your FOs under the bus with pay. Plain and simple.

If you want respect, look in the mirror, don't try and find it cyberspaces' version of Lord of the Flies.

If you Junior Man, your throwing your own under an even bigger bus.

 

[Capt America]

The Delta stock thing is true....it is in our contract with them. The contracts were all listed in the prospectus that was mailed out a while back when they were informing the employees about stock options.


By the way.... I work at Chautauqua and I love it here.


but I for one believe we did not gain anything in our last contract that is why I voted no.

 

[ATC]

What is "Junior Manning"? Why is it so bad for a pilots contract?

 

[Viper1948]

Another dumb question

Don't want to appear too dumb, but in all these "race to the bottom" discussions, why is it that it seems the regionals are expected to hold the line on wage concessions and if they don't they are traitors, scabs, or worse (like Mesa, CHQ, Shuttle, etc.), but when ALPA and NWA pilots approve massive pay cuts - heard on the news this morning that the give-back will approach $1,000,000,000.

Why is it OK for mainline(not getting trashed) to accept concessions to keep their jobs and not OK for regionals?

 

[P38JLightning]

good question

Viper1948,

Actually that was a very good question.

I know on the surface it appears to be that way, but if you dig a little deeper you'll see there's a lot more going on.

For example, if Delta takes cuts (probably in the 20-30% range of TOTAL cost cuts, not just pay) they will still be, I believe, the highest paid airline pilots on earth. They genuinely need to cut costs, not just to get growth and 18 month upgrades so they can move on, but to survive. This is not lowering the bar. They would lower the bar more if they did nothing, bleed their airline into BK and removed the bar entirely from the top of the industry.

NWA, likewise, truly needs to give cuts. But they are all up in their managers brandy sniffing faces demanding a return on their investment if things work out, snapback negotiations if no one else participates, and only offering about a fifth of what the ivy league labor bashing fraternity on their property claims they "need". They are not rolling over, and AFTER 9/11 remember they negotiated RAISES. Not bad for a money losing mainline. This is a responsibile way to deal with real problems with the balance sheet of their airline. Again, needed long term to survive. That's why no one is aghast about them "lowering the bar." That has lots more to do with who'se the highest paid, and "raise versus cut." Read on.

Now American and USAir, who everyone admits needed to take cuts, went I believe too far. That's not just my opinion but that of the APA as well (American's pilot unon.) I can't think of the web site right now, but do a search and they have tons of pie charts, bar graphs and stats that claim the cuts they gave were too deep and were largely used for management perks and parachutes. Not acceptable. They DID lower the bar, and shame on them for doing it. Once AA is back in the black again, they will use DAL and NWA's much higher rates as a negotiation benchmark, once again riding the coat tails of pilot groups who stand strong and negotiate with management instead of folding.

USAir went through similar cuts (massive) and they are still not doing well. Management now wants more cuts. USAir ALPA said Seigel (CEO) must go and he laughed at them. Actually he might go in April, but if he does it will have nothing to do with USAir pilot leadership discreditiing him and everything to do with his extra severance during that month.

Meanwhile, USAir mechanics, I believe, are still on every tug for every pushback. That is a negotiated benefit of their's from a previous profitable time they are refusing to give up. So everyone else on the planet has 6 or 8 dollar an hour rampies doing that job and you have 90,000 dollar a year A&P and RII's doing it. Plus they have a 15 minute hand washing break built into their contract, full pay to knock off 15 early. Yeah, 50 bucks an hour to clean up, 15 minutes to do it, and the USAir pilots pay for that. The pilots must pay for everything, the mechanics laugh in everyone's faces. Gate and ticket agents making 60K a year. Please. That's more than the RECENTLY NEGOTIATED 80 seat MAINLINE jet CAPTAINS. The agents keep their seniority, but management pushes the seniority reset buttons on the 80 seat mainline jet pilots who restart at the same company as a day one employee. And the pilots let this stand. Unacceptable. IF that's what it takes to survive, shut it down.

There is a time when combating management you have to be willing to take a stand. Management will ALWAYS say if you don't comply we will shut it down. Usually they are wrong. Sometimes they are right, however. When do you call their bluff? American admitted they should have a while ago. USAir is still refusing to fight. Giving pay cuts to help your airline survive is not, in itself, lowering the bar. Not knowing when to say enough most certainly is.

80 seat mainline jets for Dash-8 pay? That's one of a thousand places they should have put their chips down and called the game. If that's what it takes to stay alive then shut it down. But they are too afraid and management knows it. It will get uglier before it gets better, and it may never get better for them. Management may very well just be taking 10% of pilot cuts and putting it in their parachutes knowing full well they are going under an an inevitable point in the near future.

So sometimes mainline does lower the bar, and I believe they get called on it, although maybe not as often as they should. But this whole bar arguement is more than who'se the highest paid. Its also who is willing to fight and who is willing to cave the fastest just to get growth.

Chautauqua is a well run airline. (OK there I said it. Someone hold my hair while I ralph) They won the coveted ATW airline of the millenium award and all that. They do have an excellent safety record and they are profitable. Very profitable. They are not just squeaking by. Things have never looked better for them (from a management perspective) and they have come from almost nowhere in a few short years to be a national powerhouse.

Their pilots got raises in their most recent contract, so you could argue (and many do) that since they improved in tough times they did okay. Reading between the lines however, you get to their true motives for accepting the contract they did. These are not tough times for them. These are the best times ever for them. They settled for Comair minus. But what's more, they set out to get Comair minus. The pilots and management undoubtedly agreed from the onset of negotiations the final product would be Comair minus. They did this, not to survive, not to under bid (they would be doing that regardless because their overall company and airframe cost are below ours) but to get growth.

Rapid growth. 18 month upgrade kinda growth. Why? Sure Captains make more than FO's, but they signed this growth by any means necessary contract so they can get their PIC time and "get qualified" to move on to greener pastures. If the Comair pilots had settled then for their contract now, then their contract now would be that much lower. Hence, lowering the bar.

Also SkyWest will NEVER be the highest paid. Their recent stab in the back for our industry of offering to fly 99 seat and below for less than Comair's 50 seat rates was appauling. Their company is extremely well run and profitable. They did that to get growth by any means necessary. Sickening. To rub salt in the wound, their 50 seat rates are a direct reflection of Comair's. They got almost everything we struck hard for 3 month for, almost overnight without a fight. Again, if we had settled for less, they would have less now.

And their biggest underbidding came for Aircraft they didn't even have. 51-99 seat jets. Both signed pathetic pay rates in the hopes they will get growth. Flying these growth aircraft for Comair 50 seat pay or less. So you see, where we set the bar, the bottom feeders will follow, but always at a comfortable margin less, becuse they lack the stones to ever top us (or anyone who is on top). Mark my words, that is a promise.

Chautauqua and SkyWest DID lower the bar because they paid management to subsidize their own growth. Neither of these very well run, VERY profitable airlines will EVER pay their pilots the most in the industry. They will ALWAYS be a comfortable margin below those who stand strong and negotiate and/or fight for an industry leading contract.

So you see, "the bar" isn't just who has the most expensive contract. It has a little to do with that, sure. ASA was recently approached by management and "offered" the chance to buy their own growth by exiting section 6 (a VERY pro managament offer) and they said no thanks. Now go figure, they wound up getting most of the "growth" jets anyway. Hmm. Guess managemwnt was bluffing afterall. They said they NEEDED to get out of section 6 or Delta wouldn't give them growth because they needed to know their pilot costs. But they didn't cave and they didn't buy the management propaganda. The way I look at it ASA raised the bar every bit as high as Comair.

The problem with Chautauqua and SkyWest isn't that their pay is less than "the bar" its that they are engaging in predatory low balling, especialy for 70 and 90 seaters, just to get growth.

Now you'll notice I let Mesa alone. They are worthy of more bashing than Chautauqua and SkyWest for sure, but I'm laying off Mesa for a while. All the criticisim they deserve should be redirected to the stoolies at USAir who went one up on Mesa's low bar by offering to fly 80 seat mainline jets for Dash-8 pay. No excuse for that. None. Come to think of it, maybe I should lay off SKY and CHQ for a while. Right now USAir is this industry's biggest enemy.

 

[Viper1948]

So will the industry ever recover or am I better off where I am now - wet-nursing a bunch of execs back and forth to meetings, getting their luggage, etc? At least I'm home most nights and get a straight 45K salary and bennies, but it's not the "dream"...

 

[RegionalFA]

So will the industry ever recover or am I better off where I am now - wet-nursing a bunch of execs back and forth to meetings, getting their luggage, etc? At least I'm home most nights and get a straight 45K salary and bennies, but it's not the "dream"...

the real question is "does 'the dream' even still exist?"

 

[StarChecker]

Re: good question

They settled for Comair minus. But what's more, they set out to get Comair minus. The pilots and management undoubtedly agreed from the onset of negotiations the final product would be Comair minus. They did this, not to survive, not to under bid (they would be doing that regardless because their overall company and airframe cost are below ours) but to get growth.

I just flew with one of our Negotiating Comittee members last month. Funny....he didn't mention your presence at the meetings.

Anyway...something everyone seems to forget about is that 95% strike vote. We all hear every day about the "89 days". That really demonstrated the resolve of the Comair pilot group and several friends of mine are members of that group. However, don't think for a minute that you guys have the monopoly on sacrifice. Because there are 62 pilots at CHQ(myself included) that would disagree; 62 pilots that were furloughed as a direct result of that strike vote. So before you criticize us for folding, remember that strike vote cost me and 61 other pilots our jobs for 3 months....hmmm...3 months = 90 days. Sound familiar?

 

[Mookie]

Just to set the record straight about skyw... we have 3 whopping 70's on property right now and not a single airplane bigger on order. also, when our payrates expired, apparently the bench mark for negotiations were the Mesa rates. luckily we kept what we had and also got an 18 month package which expires this winter. .

also, pay rates are not the be all end all of compensation. A true apples to apples comparison would probably make our pay rates look quite a bit better than most out there.

hoping to raise the bar soon
Mookie

 

[jetfueljunkey]

Looks like Mid-Atlantic lowered the bar even more 58.00/hr to fly a 70 seat jet (captain) 28.00 for F.O.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

So before you criticize us for folding, remember that strike vote cost me and 61 other pilots our jobs for 3 months.

The strike vote didn't cost you your job it was a malicious management group who did. I never saw in the employee handbook where it stated that if your employee group votes to strike that the company is required to furlough. Maybe you could point it out to me. Did Mesaba, Mesa, Skyway, Delta, Comair, Horizon, Northwest, UPS, Fed Ex and United furlough pilots because they gave authorization to the MEC to call a strike if needed? Seems to be a pretty isolated thing that CHQ management did. Maybe BB should practice what he preaches in his weekly bible thumping.

 

[StarChecker]

The strike vote didn't cost you your job it was a malicious management group who did.

If that strike vote had not passed, I would not have been furloughed. Regardless of management's intent, it was the vote that precipitated the furloughs. Therefore, the strike vote caused my furlough. Logic 101.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

If that strike vote had not passed, I would not have been furloughed. Regardless of management's intent, it was the vote that precipitated the furloughs. Therefore, the strike vote caused my furlough. Logic 101.

So by your logic I can assume that if you had the chance to vote you would have not been in favor of a strike authorization. I'm sure you are telling all your Captains how dissappointed you are in them for voting for the strike and putting you on the street. Pretty selfish of you. Everyday I become more thankful that I resigned from that place after that contract was approved because I don't have to deal with short-sighted people like you. After you get 10-15 years in the lines and a few more furlough's under your belt, let's see if you are complaining about being out of work for 90 days while your representatives tried to negotiate a better lifestyle on your behalf.

 

[StarChecker]

So by your logic I can assume that if you had the chance to vote you would have not been in favor of a strike authorization. I'm sure you are telling all your Captains how dissappointed you are in them for voting for the strike and putting you on the street. Pretty selfish of you. Everyday I become more thankful that I resigned from that place after that contract was approved because I don't have to deal with short-sighted people like you.

I'm trying to look back and read where I said I was "disappointed" with our Captains for "putting me on the street". I'm not seeing it. Oh I see...you "assumed" I was not in favor of it...that explains it.

I fully supported that strike vote and would have voted for it.

And we're all just as happy you left.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

Is your cranium really as thick as it seems. Generally if you cry about being furloughed because of a strike vote, an educated observer would then believe that you are against said vote. If you are in support of something, most non-lithium supported upright mammals generally don't complain about it.

For example; I believe in the right for citizens to arm themselves. By this knowledge you can assume to not catch me complaining about people owning firearms.