declaring an emergency

[MetroSheriff]

Avbug,

This probably goes without saying, but I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about anything Clownpilot has to say. Given most of his posts, in most of his threads, ignoring him is usually the best idea. Don't fuel his fire, so to speak (pardon the pun).

Fly Safe.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Typhoonpilot, who's to say your family hasn't been passenges on a trip I've flown already? Ya just never know.

Well first of all, I'm not "Typhoonpilot." There's another guy out there that goes by that handle.

Secondly, as for any of my family members being on one of your flights, what can I say? I'm sure you're a fine pilot, but I think you're leading some of the younger students on this board astray on this issue.

Does anybody remember the original point of this thread? "What are some real-life situations where you would declare an emergency?"

I put it to all of you that in modern aviation, when something goes wrong, a pilot must remember the four fundamentals: (1) aviate, (2) navigate, (3) communicate, and (4) cover your a__, in that order. Declaring an emergency has very little to do with the first two fundamentals. It's related to the third, and it has everything to do with the fourth. It would be great to live in a world where "C.Y.A." didn't apply to pilots. We don't live in that world.

Like so many of the other airline pilots that have since abandoned this thread, I don't understand this decades-old fear of declaring an emergency, and I'm tired of arguing about it. I will leave you with a question that I have posed several times now, a question not even The Mighty Avbug has attempted to answer: why make it easier for the F.A.A. and/or your company to take action against you by not declaring an emergency--an urgency or distress condition--when one arises?

Engine failure in a twin? Yes, declare. Vacuum failure in IMC? No back-up for the vacuum system? Yes, declare. If the ability of the airplane to safely fly has been seriously affected, either by a mechanical failure or by some external cause, a declaration is appropriate. It doesn't mean you don't have the situation under control. It establishes a structure between you and A.T.C. that will make it easier for you to meet the emergency.

Would I reach up and yank the T-handle the moment I saw a red light come on? No. Why? Because I'm not a moron. I'm sorry, Avbug, but "young" and "low-time" do not mean "inept."

This thread is raising my blood-pressure; I'm not coming back. If any of you guys have questions on this issue and would like my input, PM me.

 

[Clownpilot]

>>Why stop there? I could turn in my drivers license, and possibly sell my handguns and quit reloading. I might as well chuck the parachutes in the trash; no more skydiving for me. I'm dangerous. I'll wear thick gloves so I can't molest pets and small children while walking down the street...seeing as I can't drive anymore. Thank heavens there are people on this board who can set me straight. It's a good thing I tune in here, isn't it?>>

Well, as for the skydiving..........Go ahead and toss the parachutes in the trash..........but continue your skydiving.

Turning in your pilot's license will be sufficient. Frankly, if your car starts on fire I don't really care whether you keep driving it or not.
As for molesting pets and children I have already stated that I believe you have mental problems; mostly having to do with a complete lack of connection to reality.

>>Maybe I'll just get started on that autobiographical novel; "Top ten reasons why I should throw myself off a tall building, and the top twenty reasons the world will be safer when I'm gone." Whaddayathink???>>

As I said, relinquishing your pilots license will suffice(assuming you actually have one).


>>And clownpilot, seeing as there's no rational ground for discussion, and sanity, maturity, and serenity is out the window, let's just meet out by the flagpole after school so I can kick your butt up around your ears. It may be the one thing I can do REALLY well. Whaddayasay?>>

Why doesn't that response surprise me. Please seek help.

 

[FL000]

Wow! Is this the same Avbug that berated me for saying that I would treat a head cold with OTC Dayquil or Sudafed before flying? The same Avbug that, in so many words, suggested it would be better instead to call in sick until the symptoms subsided, presumably about 10 days? Talk about schizophrenia.

I think some of you are starting to see the curtain drawn on the Wizard. Keep pulling.

 

[avbug]

There is no double standard; you would be best to call in sick. Exactly as I said before. I would.

Go back and read all the threads. The origional question was about declaring an emergency, and in every case I have repeatedly stated: IF YOU NEED TO DECLARE, DECLARE, IF YOU DON'T NEED TO DECLARE, DON'T DECLARE.

Real simple, huh? Nothing inconsistant, no differing of standards. I've given examples of my own behavior to back up this statement, and examples of others with whom I'm associated. Each example has been consistant.

If you fly with a headcold, you're an idiot. If you elect not to fly when you have a headcold, then you've exercised good judgement. Clear?

 

[501261]

Wouldn't be a Web forum without the occasional catfight would it?

Back to the original discussion, here's my take on declaring an emergency. The first time I had a Flameout (compressor stall) I declared an emergency, went down low, got it re-light as soon as I was in the relight envelope and was back on my way, no problem, no paperwork. Couple of weeks later I had another flameout, did the exact same thing, except that I felt stupid for declaring an emergency. Third time I Flameout climbing out of FL410 I decided to play it cool.

Me: "Center, Lear 12345 is going to need to go down to FL250 to reset our pressurization system."

Center: "Are you declaring an emergency?"

Me: "No sir, just need to go down and hit the reset switch."

Real cool, right? Well, center didn't seem to think so, as I descended into traffic at FL370 (see the Lear won't stay at FL410 on 1 engine). Long story short, I ALMOST got violated by not declaring an emergency on a minor problem (flameout), thereby causing a MAJOR unseen problem (loss of separation), that could have easily been avoided had I just declared.

On the other hand I also see Avbug's point, Declaring MIGHT not do you any good. Bottom-line use your best judgment and never be afraid to declare, but realize it's just a tool, and it might not be the tool you need!

PS- for those Lear drivers, it wasn't pilot error that caused the flameout, but bad fuel computer.

 

[avbug]

The case brought up by 501261 is a good point. A declaration of an emergency was made the first two times (if I read correctly), but not the third. In the third case, the proble arose when ATC wasn't informed as to the actual nature of the problem. Had ATC been informed that the flight was unable to maintain altitude and was experiencing an engine-out, certainly priority would have been granted. Weather or not an emergency had been "declared," you can bet ATC would have granted priority handling.

It's imperitive to communicate the nature of the problem to ATC, where able. (Assuming ATC can hear, or that communication capability is available, of course). It may or may not be necessary to declare an emergency, but we know that we are required to notify ATC at any time if a condition exists which affects the safety of the flight. That goes without saying.

A friend with whom I flew is presently piloting for a major airline. He left after several years in fire service, after a full career with a branch of the service as pilot in several capacities. He was an excellent pilot, and to my mind an excellent example of an officer and a gentleman.

We experienced a hydraulic loss during a drop on a fire. He flew the airplane while I went aft to troubleshoot and attempt repairs. I isolated the systems as appropriate, and replenished the hydraulic supply, but was unable to restore hydraulic pressure.

We notified the Lead working the fire, who escorted us back to the tanker base at Lake City. The lead, a former Initial Attack Captain on that airplane, performed an enroute external inspection of our airplane, using his Baron. The base manager was notified, and he elected to close the base and send all tankers to TLH. He notified the airport crash rescue, who deployed on the runway while we circled overhead.

After 45 minutes of troubleshooting, checklists, and discussion, we elected to land. We manually extended the gear (which involves going downstairs and throwing the nosegear out by hand on that airplane, incidentally) and flaps, and prepared to enter the pattern from above. The issue on landing was lack of directional control; the nosewheel on that airplane (4Y) is freecastering, and it won't roll straight for more than a few feet. Brakes are the means of steering, with differential power being of little use when attempting to slow during a landing. In that airplane, loss of hydraulics means loss of control on the landing.

As we prepared for pattern entry, a bee of some kind emerged from behind the drop panel. It began flying around us, and seemed attracted to my cohort. My friend became very agitated, and then admitted that he was allergic to bee stings. I exited the flight deck and went through the bomb bay to the rear, and tore apart his luggage searching for an epipen in case he needed an injection. I couldn't find it, and returned to the cockpit area. The bee was still there, and my friend was very excited.

At this point, the only emergency, as far as he was concerned, was the bee. We had dealt with the other problem(s), but the bee was a bigger one. I was able to catch the bee in my hat, and toss it (and the hat) out the top hatch (didn't attempt to swat it for fear of missing, and agitating it and making things worse).

We recovered hydraulic pressure on final, and landed without incident. We stopped on the runway, and were inspected by crash rescue, before proceeding to the loading pits to shut down. It was then I determined that a hydraulic actuator in the #4 tank had blown out, draining the entire system. A little over two hours later, the repair was done, and we were back in service.

The point there, for whatever it's worth, is that all the elements were present. No emergency was declared formally, but everyone was kept informed, and all necessary arrangements were coordinated. Mouthing the words "I declare" wouldn't have changed that; everything worked exactly as it should. Certainly when the more significant immediate threat to health by the insect(s) occured, nothing more could have been gained by declaring an emergency. An ambulance was already in place, and there was nothing more to do but deal with the situation as best we could.

One year later my friend elected to take a job with a major airline, where he is quite happily employed. I believe this particular story, which is humorous when properly told, was shared by him in his interview. He used it, with the full detail not given here for brevity, as an example of how to deal with an "emergency," as well as proper crew coordination and resource management. Those conducting the interview responded well to the incident.

Incidentally, the structural failures aren't an exaggeration, and are a matter of record in Service Difficulty Reports. They've become a matter of some interest lately, because we cracked both wings on a C-130A during work on a fire outside the country; two months ago both wings came off that same airplane during a drop. That matter is currently part of an active ongoing investigation. Other failures occured, but none as noteworthy.

 

[PropsForward]

General opinion around here is NOT to declare an emergency unless things are really bad and seconds away from being fatal. This is the WRONG idea.



I have actually heard other flight instructors give scenarios to their students and it does not take too many stories to get the picture that having a problem is a shameful act and should be dealt with as quietly as possible. It is such a terrible and dangerous philosophy to teach pilots.



Do not be conservative with this tool. Use it anytime you have a problem that can lead to a bigger problem if you do not take care of it immediately. Don't worry about any possible paperwork at the end. That is the least of your worries. If it has you rattled, even if it is something you did (or forgot to do), don't hesitate to declare an emergency and get back on the ground.



NTSB is full of ATC responses like "he seemed to have it under control and responded in a calm matter", or "did not realize just how low on fuel he was because he did not declare", etc, etc, etc.



If you have a problem outside of your personal experience level, declare the emergency. Everybody will get out of your way and be happy you made it down safely.

 

[PropsForward]

<snip> IF YOU NEED TO DECLARE, DECLARE, IF YOU DON'T NEED TO DECLARE, DON'T DECLARE.

It is just important to evaluate WHY you decide not to declare. If your decision is based on pride, looking stupid to your peers, fear of paperwork, over confidence, or in general worrying about some consequence OTHER than the problem at hand then your decision not to declare is tainted.



I am trying to avoid examples but here is one anyways. Back in the day of being a new pilot I had a door open on takeoff, it was a different enough experience at the time to startle me and distract me from flying properly. I chose to declare and land. I shut the door and departed. No paperwork. Perhaps a few folks thinking I was too punchy on the "E" button, but who cares. Years and experience later a door opening is not a big deal (Especially after flying skydivers for a year). I would never declare now because at my experience level this is clearly not an emergency, but at the same time I would not think less of any other pilot that did declare something that I felt was minor or a strech. Again, I feel that it is important that new pilots especially understand that emergency and imminent death ARE in fact two different things.

 

[kilroy]

As a air ambulance I was flying along 40 miles north of Boston Login on a Friday afternoon. I left Madrid Spain early that morning with a patient enroute to Miami .So I stoppped in Azores then Nova Scotia,Canada. All of a sudden I see crap in the back flying every were as the medics are now working with a cardic arrest patient. I tell so the closest airport with any sort of good medical facility was Login. I declared a medical emergency center cleared my directly to runway 9 and descend to 3000 feet . Remember I was at 35000 feet now 30 miles from the field. So 7 minutes later I,m sitting on the ramp with Airport police, airport ambulance, hospital ambulance and customs but no immigratiion. Pretty wild stuff.