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Deathtrap MU-2 BANNED

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A Squared

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
3,006
heheh, not really, I'm just stirring the pot.


http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/717-full.html#193170



Congressman Wants MU-2 Banned

A Denver television station says Colorado Democratic Rep. Tom Tancredo plans to introduce a bill that would ban the Mitsubishi MU-2 from U.S. airspace until the FAA does a full safety review of the aircraft. Tancredo has also written the president suggesting that FAA Administrator Marion Blakey and NTSB Chairman Mark Rosenker be fired over their "failure to act responsibly for hundreds of deaths." Tancredo became interested in the MU-2 after back-to-back crashes of the speedy twin at Centennial Airport, which is in his district. Two crashes in Florida in recent weeks prompted his latest tirade. In December 2005, the FAA performed a safety review of the aircraft, and earlier this year, the FAA said it would require enhanced training for MU-2 pilots but stopped short of requiring a type rating. A Mitsubishi official says the extra training will help. "We've seen overseas, when these training programs go into effect, the accident rates plummet," Scott Sobel told the Walton Sun. Sobel was commenting to reporters about a crash near DeFuniak Springs, Fla., which killed pilot Hardy "Buddy" Head, who family and friends say was a very experienced MU-2 pilot who had trained others on the airplane for Mitsubishi. His daughter, Alexus Purdy, told the Sun that no one in her family believes pilot error caused the crash. Sobel insisted the aircraft is safe but its widespread use as a cargo hauler might be increasing its accident rate because, according to the paper, "cargo pilots have a tendency to fly when they're tired -- at night or in bad weather."


Discuss........
 
My low-time thoughts are:

From everything I've ever read about the MU-2, it certainly seems like a widow maker....basically it sounds like an airplane that is very Japanese in that it is fine as long as everything is going as planned, but as soon as something happens out of the ordinary (like losing an engine), all hell breaks loose.

Now, every time I see an MU-2 on the ground or in the air, I wonder....who in their right mind would purchase such an airplane when there are so many alternatives???

I also wonder about the role of insurance companies in this whole situation. If the airplane is truly as dangerous as what we read, why do insurance companies still underwrite the thing? It would seem that if the accident rate is as bad as we think it is, that no one in their right mind would be able to afford to insure the bloody thing. In theory, the market should control itself.....but it hasn't. What gives?
 
have patience, the truth will come.....

All will be clear when you are >100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Fearless Tower said:
It would seem that if the accident rate is as bad as we think it is, that no one in their right mind would be able to afford to insure the bloody thing. In theory, the market should control itself.....but it hasn't. What gives?

The idea of a purely "free market", like communism, only works in theory. History has shown that market forces alone cannot regulate or control itself. It must be regulated by government.
 
TimsKeeper said:
All will be clear when you are >100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wonderfull response! Arogance and totally thought free!
Well done!!

CE
 
There is a very good write up about the MU-2 in this month's Twin & Turbine magazine. It talks a lot about how if you try and use light piston twin engine-out procedures in an MU-2, things can get real bad real fast.

I have sat right seat on a couple of MU-2 rides, and it was an absolute blast. But the one thing that amazed me was the fact that someone with a brand spankin' new multi ticket (me at the time) can just hop into the left seat and fly that beast.
 
Most of my right mind tells me that the MU-2 requires alternative procedures then any other twin engine aircraft when the ***t hits the fan.

The other side of mind says that maybe there is something wierd happening that we don't know about? There just seems to be way to many wierd crashes because of a simple engine failure. Many of these people did this EVERY day probably practiced it MANY times yes still a somewhat routine emergency causes the airplane to go out of control from even recoverable altitudes. I'm not saying its not a safe airplane, I don't know however maybe, just maybe the current training does'nt plan for the worst case scenerio.
 
My 2 cents is that Mitsubishi officials should not use the word "accident" and "plummet" in the same sentence when discussing the MU-2, although I imagine it is hard not to.
 
cargo pilots have a tendency to fly when they're tired -- at night or in bad weather."

Yup, they got that one right: Seems all my flying is at night and in bad weather, Freightdoggiestyle tired.
 
Learsforsale said:
But the one thing that amazed me was the fact that someone with a brand spankin' new multi ticket (me at the time) can just hop into the left seat and fly that beast.

That's exactly what I don't understand about insurance companies and the MU-2. Look at a plane like the Beech 18. The average pilot these days would have a hell of a time finding any company to insure the thing. If a guy like me (assuming I was multi) wanted to buy a BE18 and called up my insurance company, they'd probably hang up the phone laughing at me thinking it was a joke (I can't say that I would blame them). If someone with 1000-2000 hours and say 500 tailwheel called them, they'd probably tell them 'sorry, but we just can't insure you.' If a pilot with say 5000 hours and 1000 tailwheel calls 'em, they'll probably be able to get the insurance, but they best have DEEP pockets.

So why does it seem like they'll let just anybody with a wet ticket fly the MU-2? I agree that the free market doesn't always govern itself properly, but in this case it seems like the insurance companies must be taking a huge risk to insure these things.
 
The article recomends a crack maintenance team, top notch training,
and sharp pilots. Will you find these in the cargo industry? You may
find one, MABIE 2 at a time. The MU-2 requires the pilot to be on the
top of his/her game 24/7.

Also, haven't there been a couple of wing seperation in the past year?

25% of the fleet has been in an accident.

Is it a good plane? I can be in its own way.

From a liability standpoint, Would I want it in my fleet?
Hell no!

When is someone going to put a couple of Williams jets on this thing?!
If it flys like a jet, why not MAKE it a jet.

CE

Just sayin'
 
CrimsonEclipse said:
The article recomends a crack maintenance team, top notch training,
and sharp pilots. Will you find these in the cargo industry? You may
find one, MABIE 2 at a time. The MU-2 requires the pilot to be on the
top of his/her game 24/7.

Also, haven't there been a couple of wing seperation in the past year?

25% of the fleet has been in an accident.

Is it a good plane? I can be in its own way.

From a liability standpoint, Would I want it in my fleet?
Hell no!

When is someone going to put a couple of Williams jets on this thing?!
If it flys like a jet, why not MAKE it a jet.

CE

Just sayin'


Very interesting idea about the jets, it would make a hella cool VLJ.

I was riding passenger in an MU2B at altitude in clear air and had a very loud bang and considerable shuddering. It was only momentary (2-3 seconds) but it felt alot longer. The pilots had no idea what it was, I thought we canned an engine at first but that was not it, no damage to the fuselage, leading edges or anything found. It was a weird experience to say the least. I had the chance to own one but chose the Conquest instead. Very quarky aircraft, those MU2's
 
A Squared said:
heheh, not really, I'm just stirring the pot.


http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/717-full.html#193170






Discuss........
What would this be... the 3rd or 4th certification review? The airplane has shown that it meets the certification requirements. It's not the airplane, it's the half-trained pilots flying them. What MU-2 pilots need is adequate and proper training. (Something that can be shown to be missing in the vast majority of MU-2 accidents.)

LS
 
The MU-2 seems fine to me, just pilots that are not trained properly.
 
Oh, and a jet conversion would be easier since there would be no
sudden loss of induced lift (from the prop wash) from an engine
failure.

I haven't really researched the structural requirement yet.

It'd look like a mini-328Jet!!

CE
 
The MU-2 seems fine to me, just pilots that are not trained properly.
And... you've flown HOW MANY hours in the MU-2 to substantiate this claim??
I'll second his claim. It's been my contention since 1986 when I first flew the MU-2. It's what they told us back then at FlightSafety and it's what they're telling us now. Oh by the way, I don't have as much MU-2 time as many MU-2 guys lurking around here, but I do have 1,000 hours in it - single-pilot, air ambulance; 98% of it at night and in the mountains.

LS
 
agpilot34 said:
And... you've flown HOW MANY hours in the MU-2 to substantiate this claim??
About 800 hrs, is that enough?
 
siucavflight said:
About 800 hrs, is that enough?

Yup, that's plenty for me. Just makin' sure you weren't another one of the armchair experts that always seem to chime in discussions like this one, giving their pearls of wisdom when they've never even set in the d@mn thing, much less flown it.
 
agpilot34 said:
Yup, that's plenty for me. Just makin' sure you weren't another one of the armchair experts that always seem to chime in discussions like this one, giving their pearls of wisdom when they've never even set in the d@mn thing, much less flown it.
Like I said, the plane is a handful if the engine quits, but with the right kind of training, and a lot of vigilance it is not a death sentence.
 
siucavflight said:
Like I said, the plane is a handful if the engine quits, but with the right kind of training, and a lot of vigilance it is not a death sentence.
Couldn't that be said of nearly every twin-engine in the fleet?

LS
 
Im asking this because i seriously dont know, why is the MU2 different in its engine out procedures, and what does a pilot do procedure wise to correct for a failed engine?
 
agpilot34 said:
Yup, that's plenty for me. Just makin' sure you weren't another one of the armchair experts that always seem to chime in discussions like this one, giving their pearls of wisdom when they've never even set in the d@mn thing, much less flown it.


That would be Mr. Cadwalader.
From what I understand, he's an expert witness and has testified in court as an expert witness!

Hey, Cadwalader, or whatever your name is, my son's got more time in the MU2 than you do. And that's hands-on, sticktime, not just having sat in one.
 
Flysher said:
Im asking this because i seriously dont know, why is the MU2 different in its engine out procedures, and what does a pilot do procedure wise to correct for a failed engine?
You ask a legitimate question and it deserves an answer. The MU-2 has been a controversial airplane from almost day one. I flew the MU-2B-60 (Marquise) single-pilot for 3 years for an air ambulance outfit. I liked the airplane, but it definitely demands a professional approach and proper initial and recurrent training. Its wing loading gives it flight characteristics more akin to a turbojet aircraft than a propeller-driven aircraft and it demands to be flown like a jet.

These “quirks” aren’t dangerous, but they need to be fully understood and considered in the day-to-day operation of the aircraft. For example, in practically every other propeller-driven aircraft you go for "blue line" in the event of an engine failure. In the MU-2 you fly a profile and clean up the aircraft sequentially as you accelerate - just as you would in a jet. If you attempt to handle an engine failure in the MU-2 they way you were taught in a King Air or light twin and you'll turn yourself into a lawn dart. Period.

The MU-2 doesn’t handle ice particularly well, but neither do a lot of other airplanes. As I remember, it did have a minimum recommended ice speed of 160 TIAS. The minimum recommended speed in a King Air is 140 KIAS (As I remember, but it’s been a long time.) Let an MU-2 (or King Air) get slow while you’re packing ice and you will probably end up creating some memories for yourself. Keep the speed up and you'll have no problems.

As far as the safety record goes, a lot of it has to do with their low price on the used market. In years past, wealthy individuals could choose between a new single, used light twin, or an early MU-2. Let's see, a 170 knot Bonanza, a 200 knot twin or a 270+ knot MU-2 for the same price. Aircraft salesmen would tout turbine reliability and safety and make the sale. The insurance companies would ask for proper training, but there were enough guys out there that would fly without insurance and with out anything more than a rudimentary checkout. The airplane ate those kind of pilots for lunch. Nowadays, it’s the check hauling and freight outfits that have discovered the virtues of the MU-2. Fortunately, these are also the very same companies that are so well known for their thorough and extensive initial and recurrent training programs - yeah right.

I believe that the airplane is a good one, you absolutely need to get proper training and fly it according to the AFM. The Marquise had a 10% larger cabin, was 10% faster and burned 10% less fuel than the KA200. In order to get that kind of performance, Mitsubishi had to use a lot of aeronautical tricks. After all, the total wing area isn't that much greater than say a Cessna 210. As I remember, it had the same wing loading as the T-38, the B-727, and a Learjet. You have to fly it as you would any other highly wing loaded aircraft, a King Air it ain't.

It takes a little to get used to flying a wing with spoilers instead of ailerons; but once you do it handles pretty nice - no adverse aileron yaw since there are no ailerons. The spoilers induce roll by destroying lift as opposed to creating it. Control "feel" is created by springs attached to the system and is constant throughout the aircraft speed range. The spoilers are very effective at approach speeds; but, as you would imagine, they are more effective at higher speeds. From a pilot's point of view, it just means that, at approach speeds, you need more control movement to get the same response from the airplane that you would at cruise speed.

Finally, proper trim is very critical in the MU-2, especially when operating on a single engine. The trim ailerons are employed to keep the wings level without having a spoiler raised. This keeps the wing doing what it was designed to do - fly. You use the autopilot a lot in the MU-2. It's important to monitor the control wheel position frequently and adjust the trim as necessary during flight to make sure that it's level - indicating that the spoilers are flush. Other wise you're going to be cruising around with a spoiler up and a resultant loss of lift. (That’s why you don’t bank an MU-2 into the dead engine – you want to keep those spoilers down and the wing doing its thing.) These “quirks” don’t make it dangerous, just different. The differences, if not understood, are dangerous. An experienced MU-2 old timer told me that flying an MU-2 was like having a pet Doberman…

“You’ll really like it, and it will nuzzle you and eat out of your hand, but don’t do anything stupid around it or it will bite you.”

But that’s true in any airplane.

The MU-2 doesn't stand alone in this regard, other airplanes come to mind. I can remember, as a young kid back in the mid-1960’s, watching the smoke rise from the airport - a new United 727 had just landed short and burst into flames. Many people were killed in that accident. The captain, a highly experienced airline and military pilot, had misjudged the spool-up time of the engines. People died. That wasn't the only 727 lost under those particular circumstances. There were other examples where good, competent, experienced pilots weren't adequately trained when they transitioned into the new type. Coming from the big piston Douglas and Boeing transports they were used to having the practically instantaneous effect of power when they moved the throttles. They forgot about the response lag of turbine engines and many people died. Was it the airplane’s fault that people died? Was it the fault of the engines? Personally, I believe that it was a training issue. The crews that were flying those early jets weren't adequately trained. Sure they had all of the boxes check off on their training record, but like I said in an other threads - "what is legal isn't always safe."

LS
 
Hey Lead Sled thanks for the post. It was informative and an interesting read.

I have seen MU-2s when I used to fly out of PHL and I never realized that it was such a fast airplane. I would almost like to fly one someday, provided I could find a place that would train me properly.

Flysh'
 
hey lead nice post, and dead on.
 
Sled,

overall-acurate, except:

Icing: min speed 180; and it does handle ice fairly well-better than 400 Cessnas, in my opinion. But like any a/c, staying ahead and having a way out is always a good idea.
The icing related accidents, from what I can make out of the reports, were pilots forgetting to turn on anti-ice stuff.

Training: I'm sure there are outfits out there that want you to "have read the manual over the weekend to do a checkride by tuesday"!
Be careful about generelizing.

That's like me saying all asian carriers are unsafe.
 

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