Dear Duane Woerth from Allegheny MEC

[AAflyer]

Skydiverdriver,

That is what I am talking about. Who would have guessed 12-15 years ago when scope clauses and commuter supplements were incorporated into contracts that 10 years later "commuters" would become all jet airlines flying coast to coast and anywhere in between.

The sad fact of all this, we are fighting each other. RJDC wants a fair shake and a chance to grow, mainliners want to preserve their routes (yes, I have been on both sides). This is summary. I am sure both sides could expand and expalin much more to wieght their sides, and I am not here to argue that.

I find irony in the way many of the reigonal pilots have been treated, and looked upon as inferior, yet now mainliners would be more than happy to fly those jets (rjs) at "regional" pay and working conditions.

Looking at the pay of the quasi-majors (my new term) ie. Comair,Eagle etc, there should be a way to bring up the pay even more to be more inline with the majors (atleast on a weighted basis) and bring these companies together. Only then would you have both groups truly represented by a union, both pilot groups truly working towards a plan that benefits the whole.

We are in slump, but when the going was good we were paid our high mainline rates and the companies still made billions in revenue and in some cases profits. The quasi-majors are making money, and could still afford to pay more.

Please do not take these comments as greedy, but merely what we are ALL worth. Any management team would like nothing more in the end to fly jets of all sizes paying little in wages. Regardless what you fly (EMB-120 to a 777) you are worth what you negiotate.

AAflyer

 

[V-1]

I respectfully disagree with the statement "you are worth what you negotiate". Perhaps I'm not reading it in the same context as you wrote it, AA flyer. How does anyone arrive at what is "fair value" for their labor? How is a surgeon (who can only kill one person at a time) earning $500k/yr. worth more than a SF-340 pilot who can kill 34 passengers, three crewmembers, and perhaps a few people on the ground as well. Perhaps it's because the pilot has a little more at stake personally than the surgeon?

I'd love to fly a 50 seat CRJ and earn $200k/yr. I don't forsee this happening in our society until inflation becomes rampant. Let's face it, the average American is more willing to pay Shaquille O'neil millions of dollars every year to throw a ball through a hoop and net (60% successful on free-throws, if he's lucky) than to pay what a pilot would be worth based on that logic.

Aviation is subject to the law of supply and demand. So are pilot compensation/quality of life packages. If a pilot group negotiates a compensation package for itself that cannot be supported by current supply and demand conditions, that pilot group should expect to suffer a little until conditions improve.

Too many companies growing too much will lead to failure of the weak.

"The quasi-majors are making money and can still afford to pay more."

The W.O. quasi-majors are part of a team. To use an anology, imagine you had a sled pulled by a team of horses. The sled is full of shareholders who expect performance from the team. If the performance is not there, the shareholders will jump onto another sled. Not all the horses pull at the same rate. At any given time some of the horses are expected to drag some of the other horses that have become bloated from excess. Sometimes its the old horses that lead the charge (when the economy is booming) sometimes it's the younger horses (particularly suited to when the economy is bad).

If you hitch all the horses one after another you still have a chance to pull the sled along through both good and bad times. (Seems CoEX and Continental pilots aren't particularly vocal on these boards about scope issues) If you hitch all the horses next to one another, you're going to have problems. The young horses get bitter about carrying the old ones. The old horses fear being replaced. The sled moves forward, if at all, going sideways in an inefficient manner. The horses concentrate on their differences and their individual goals, not the task of pulling the sled.

The point is, the quasi-majors are part of a team. The money they make is not going to go to their respective pilot groups when the company as a whole is bleeding. Profits from one division must be siphoned off to support another division that isn't performing (perhaps through no fault of their own). Management is in a good position because there will always be strife when pilot groups start talking about merging seniority lists. Junior mainline pilots and senior regional pilots will work against any such proposals.

Thanks for your input, AAflyer. It's nice to see some moderation (on either side of the issue) on here from time to time.

Respectfully,
V-1

 

[AAflyer]

V-1,

You are right, current economics could not pay a CRJ capatain $200k per year,and it could not pay a 777 captain $500k. It is difficult to write a statement and and a have an idea in your head,and not always express it the way you would like too.

I enjoy a very comfortable salary. I would like a little more however I am not going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg (my airline) to get it. I also feel the job you perform DEMANDS more money. I am not asking for brain surgeon salaries (because very frankly you can not compare the two). But when a 3 year 70seat CRJ FO at Eagle makes around $32 bucks an hour (I believe the pay is around that) and a 3 year FO on an F100 is making about a $100 an hour there is a serious problem. The company can afford to pay the fokker rates, and CAN afford to pay the RJ FO more,but are coming up with reasons not too.

As for losses, I am sure we are losing money, but it makes you wonder if some of this is Enron accounting in the other direction. If the CEOs could show on paper massive losses, they could get labor cuts, and eliminate scope clasuses (currently what Carty is lobbying for on Capital Hill).

I agree with much you have said. I am only trying to bring up ideas, and foster thought. I am sure of one thing, we need to ban together now, regardless what airplane we fly..

Thanks for responding.

AAflyer

 

[surplus1]

I am sure of one thing, we need to ban together now, regardless what airplane we fly..
AAflyer

You are very right about this but unfortunately the reality is we are growing further apart by the minunte, not closer together.

I would much prefer not to go the "it's your fault" route, but truth is difficult to avoid. Those who "have" decided more than 10 years ago that the way to keep it was to eliminate those who had less (rather than join forces and raise up the low end) and have pursued that course consistently ever since. They are still doing it, even in the face of bankruptcy.

Meanwhile, those who "have" continue to demand more, and more, and more, seemingly without end. This further reduces what is available to those who never had, to less and less. The net effect is not an increase in available "wealth", but a lopsided distribution of that wealth. The "pie" didn't really get bigger. It's the same pie, with increasing percentages going to those who already have, at the expense of those who do not. The resulting imbalance motivates management to shift the work to the low side, with ever-increasing vigor. The flying, source of the wealth, is moving from the haves to the have nots.

The have nots are not "taking" from the haves, but are being "given" (by management) that which once was reserved only for the chosen few, at much lower cost to management. The balance of the equation is slowly changing, to the benefit of none (that fly).

This will continue until balance is restored by market forces. Continued pursuit of a policy of segregation by the "haves" will not restore the balance, it will simply accelerate the change from disagreement among ourselves, to outright civil war between pilots fighting over the flying. We are already on the brink. Fear not, management stands ready to reap the benefits of our civil strife.

It is true that the "regional" pilot could be paid more. It is equally true that many mainline pilots are paid too much. (Yes, I know I'll catch it for that). IMHO, 100,000 for a 3-yr copilot in an F-100 is excessive as much as 30,000 a year for the same pilot in a CL-700 is too little. Especially so when the productivity of the F-100 pilot is substantially less than that of the CL-700 pilot. Add to that the unmentioned burden (40%+) of the F-100 pilot's compensation package and the disparity widens exponentially.

It is only natural that mangement tries to obtain the services it needs for as little as possible, after all, that is their function. It is their responsibility to pursue profit by any legal means. They are doing that. It is not their fault that our willingness to descriminate against each other and thereby divide ourselves, has given them a decided advantage and a focus on labor costs.

We have created our own problem. Those among us who "have" are so dedicated to its protection and the pursuit of more, that they have in fact provided the tool that will ultimately lower ALL of us, if we do not join forces. The fable of the goose that laid the golden egg comes to mind. Mainline pilots are killing their own goose.

I wish that I could believe we will come together before there is too much damage to either "side" but candidly, I don't see it happening. I'm afraid there will be much more civil war between us, before there is peace and unity, followed by progress for all. It's sad.

This is not something that has happened because of 9/11. That sad event merely served to accelerate a process that was well under way, much before.

 

[AAflyer]

I am not sure the productivty of the f100 is that much less then CRJ-700 even if at all. Once again the airlines came to an agreement with these pay rates when times were good or bad, because they felt it was acceptable. Obviously it hurts now, but even if we were all to fly for free AMR according to it's numbers would still be losing money. NO I don't agree with we are paid to much, but that is for another thread.

I do fear you are right about unity. There are those who want, and those who have, there those that do not understand what is gong on if you put data in front of their face.

Maybe through channels such as this board, and when cool heads prevail each side can better understand the other, and in time we all end up with atleast something we can live with.

Wishing all pilots would unite,

AAflyer

 

[dondk]

.02

While this comment is getting slightly away from the orginal issue...

ALPA leaders are who? The Majority are from the Majors.

They are ALL on the top of the food chain in salary and senority.

Is this not a conflict of inteterst? I cannot see why (regardless of any UNION) our ALPA leaders would want to "lower" thier standards which they have fought for.

I stand behind Allegheny and thier initatives. IT took Comair to stand up to raise the standards for the rest of us, now hopefully Allegheny will help in raising that bar.

Regionals in general will have more aircraft then the majors will have in the next 5 or so years, then what? One day we may be recognized but at what cost?

 

[lear24]

dondk - thanks for your support, we're likely facing some hard times. Either a mainline furloughee is going to flow down (nevermind that they wanted nothing to do with a flow through program for years!) and take our jobs, or they'll let us fade away to a minimal amount of airplanes. Whichever happens, many of us are hosed.

It is disgusting to me that Woerth can justify creating two classes of airline pilots, when it goes against everything ALPA was started upon. Is a mainline guy more important than me? Is it okay for him to just force himself into my company and tell me to take a hike? He counters our objections by saying mainline is taking such a massive cut. We should be so lucky to be able to take part in this beautiful Jets for Jobs arrangement, and that mainline has finally decided to let the choke hold that it has had on US Airways group loose. Anyway, less of a raise is not a massive cut. Where can we draw a moral line, can Allegheny guys now go tell flight instructors and charter pilots to pack their bags, we're taking over and flowing back?

Tell your friends and coworkers. ALPA is not representing Allegheny Airlines pilots' interests or protecting our jobs. They are allowing us to suffer to feed the mainline guys who led themselves into trouble.

 

[Pileit]

The net effect is not an increase in available "wealth", but a lopsided distribution of that wealth.

You are so right. Disparity in pay/compensation is the cancer of this industry. ALPA is the one to lead us out of the wilderness, but so far they are no where to be found.

 

[Tim47SIP]

That is because they are hiding behined that big tree over there in the wilderness!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Just a small point

Just a small point I would like to make.

You said, "Either a mainline furloughee is going to flow down (nevermind that they wanted nothing to do with a flow through program for years!)

I want to clarify the word "they". As a reminder every single one of the 1070 furloughed pilots from US Airways were hired after 1999. During the short time that they were on the property there were SEVERAL attempts made by that group to pursuade the MEC to pursue a flowthrough and keep additional RJ flying within group.

The vast majority of these men and women were at the regionals just 4 years ago -- they didnt forget, and they fought for you -- for all of us -- while they were there.

Your anger is understandable, but lets lay blame where it is deserved: at US Airways' ALPA leadership.

Fraternally,
Furloughed Mainline Guy
Current (but soon to be furloughed again) Wholly-Owned Guy

 

[surplus1]

Re: Just a small point

Just a small point I would like to make.

I want to clarify the word "they". As a reminder every single one of the 1070 furloughed pilots from US Airways were hired after 1999. During the short time that they were on the property there were SEVERAL attempts made by that group to pursuade the MEC to pursue a flowthrough and keep additional RJ flying within group.

The vast majority of these men and women were at the regionals just 4 years ago -- they didnt forget, and they fought for you -- for all of us -- while they were there.

Your anger is understandable, but lets lay blame where it is deserved: at US Airways' ALPA leadership.

Fraternally,
Furloughed Mainline Guy
Current (but soon to be furloughed again) Wholly-Owned Guy

Congratulations, sir. My hat's off to you. It took courage to say what you just did in a public forum, given your status as a USAirways pilot (furloughed or not). I admire men of principle.

I think however, that you omitted the principal culprit. Yes, the USAirways MEC is culpable but more importantly, the National union is responsible!

The USAirways MEC is not responsible to look after the welfare of pilots who are not on the USAirways seniority list. However, the UMEC is NOT and independent entity, it is a "unit" of the ALPA, International.

No agreement between the UMEC and anyone else can become a legally binding and enforceable contract, without the explicit consent of ALPA, Intenational as demonstrated by the signature of its President. ALPA and ALPA alone is the recognized bargaining agent and therefore, bares full legal responsibility for the actions of the UMEC in this matter.

The lack of leadership being demonstrated by the International union in this crisis is apalling. If the UMEC's TA is signed into a contract by the ALPA President, the repercussions will be heard far beyond the property of USAirways.

The pilots of USAirGroup's regional subsidiaries are not alone. I support them fully in the struggle for fair representation of their interests and I know that I am not alone either.

Like the Minutemen of yesterday they face a superior force and are out gunned on every quarter. However, thanks to the fortitude of those Minutemen, this country is a Republic and governed by law. The ALPA, International must either adhere to that law and honor its Duty of Fair Representation or be forced to do so by the courts. ALG/PDT and PSA pilots should stand together and fight for their rights. If ALPA will not voluntarily support them, then they must seek redress in the courts forthwith.

Regards,
Surplus1
CMR

 

[publisher]

boards

You certainly do not have to read these boards very long to understand that ALPA cannot represent all parties equally.

In many cases, ALPA has become the big business that they claim to be at odds with.

In any case where leadership is elected by the majority, there will be an under-served minority. This holds true nationally and at the MEC and contract level.

In the end artificial constraints are severely pressed to work in a declining situation, only in a growth situation. Why, the people forced into situations by the constrraints are not done so by the factors that should control but artificial ones. This leads to resentment.

The disparity of pay in the industry is systemic. As example, if a big airplane was much harder to fly than a small one, one should logically be paid more to fly it. Most of us know that is not the case. We also hold to the notion that pay should always raise over time. A good many people have found that not to be true.

Let this time be remembered downstream so as not to repeat it.

 

[canadflyau]

Your about to enter, the SPIN zone

News Release

Release #02.70
August 5, 2002

PREPARED STATEMENT:
Allegheny Airlines Pilots Informational Picketing of ALPA

The Air Line Pilots Association represents 66,000 airline pilots at 43 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. The needs of pilots at each of these airlines will vary because of differences in markets, route structure, and financial condition. Therefore, within certain limits spelled out in its Constitution and By-Laws, ALPA gives each pilot group a great amount of latitude and autonomy in negotiating its own collective bargaining agreements.

ALPA respects the right of each pilot group to negotiate the best appropriate terms it can achieve with its employer. The union provides each pilot group with significant support in terms of money and staff resources toward reaching its negotiating goals. Such support is provided equitably and without favoritism.

Regarding the specific case of Allegheny and US Airways, because of market conditions and the post-9/11 fall-out, the US Airways pilots are considering measures to provide significant relief, including $465 million per year for 6-1/2 years (a one-third cut in unit operating costs), elimination of a no-furlough clause, reductions in the fleet of large airliners, and an increase in the ratio of small jets (SJs) in the fleet. The purpose of these concessions is to allow the airline to go forward with securing a government loan guarantee, without which neither US Airways nor its wholly owned express carriers, including Allegheny, have much prospect of surviving.

Furthermore, Allegheny pilots would have the option of participating in a process that would open up significant career and flying opportunities for them. The two other wholly owned express carriers, Piedmont and PSA, have agreed to participate.

Allegations that allowing US Air to start a new airline to operate a portion of the new SJs would violate ALPA’s "alter ego airline" policy are wrong, since that policy only applies to non-union carriers. The new MidAtlantic Airways would be operated under terms collectively bargained by ALPA. Pilots at the express carriers also would be given "flow-through" rights allowing them to move up to jobs at both the new airline and US Airways.

In summary, the US Airways agreement not only provides economic concessions necessary for all pilots in the US Airways Group to maintain job security, but also provides an equitable sharing of flying and career opportunities to express pilots that do not currently exist and probably would not exist without the agreement.

# # #

ALPA CONTACT: John Mazor (703) 481-4440

 

[canadflyau]

pick up the phone and call

ALPA CONTACT: John Mazor (703) 481-4440

If they give a number, then we should call and express are disgust with the extortion of J4J and the unfair treatment of Regional pilots aka "the non-preferred pilot group."

I could type for hours about the mountains of half truths and false statements in the ALPA press release... No mention that they, ALG, have pilots already on furlough (me) whom they will be replacing.. How about the history of, when times are good NO FLOW THROUGH, now times are bad the say WE WANT FLOW THROUGH. When times are bad JUST KEEP DOING YOUR MEASLY REGIONAL FLYING AND BE QUIET, when times are bad GIVE US CONCESSIONS..

ALPA NATIONAL and U MAINLINE MEC... THIS IS RIDICULOUS

by the way... when did PDT sign on and agree to J4J?

 

[dondk]

From the local Pittsburgh paper...

http://www.post-gazette.com/businessnews/20020806usair0806bnp2.asp

from canadflyau post...

Furthermore, Allegheny pilots would have the option of participating in a process that would open up significant career and flying opportunities for them. The two other wholly owned express carriers, Piedmont and PSA, have agreed to participate.

So... after all of Mid Atlantic positions are filled AND 1/2 of the positions at each of the WO's by furloughed mainline guys. The WO's will get "significant" career and flying opportunities? Is that because THOSE still left will be the ONLY one's left? I guess it is significant IF they still have a job!

I still support Allegheny, I have no clue why PDT would sign on to this crap.

canadflyau.... I use to work for PDT a while back.. As I remember back then, mainline WHEN they were interviewing rarely took a WO guy. I don't know how many WO guys got onboard with Mainline. My friend was turned down as mainline did not want to take WO's guys as it caused a financial burden on the WO's (at least that was the excuse, but who knows)