Dear Duane Woerth from Allegheny MEC

[skydiverdriver]

If anyone things that the rjdc fight is only between Delta and Comair/ASA, I believe you are sadly mistaken. And, all of the people who claim they don't have a dog in this fight, well, that's true if you're not a pilot, and have no connection to the airlines whatsoever. For everyone that flies for a living, the rjdc lawsuit will have an effect on you. I was told the other day that someone who works for Bombardier is sending money to the rjdc, as he believes in their goals, and is a private pilot hoping to be a professional pilot someday. I think if we all do a little, nobody will have to do a lot.

And, for those people who tell us to leave ALPA, well, that's just what you would like us to do, wouldn't you?!! What, do you think we are stupid or something??!!! Try using some actual arguements, and we will respond with the same.

 

[sabreliner]

ALPA is in a corner with no good way out. The latest article in the ALPA magazine(Cathay Pacific) mentions ALPA's guiding priciples. One look at the Jets for Jobs, the RJDC, and current scope in the Majors contracts shows that ALPA is unable to fairly represent all the pilots in the industry. Oh, for those of you that have yet to read Flying the Line, part 2 - start now and get an idea where the current line of thinking started. It's tough to get the regional viewpoint across to guys who have no concept of what we do. Alter ego of the mainline carriers.. yup. Major Pay and Benefits? not likely. And with the current environment of transferring flying to the "B" carriers (ASA,Comair, Skywest, COEX, etc) the big boys lower their costs to compete but also eliminate the 'good paying jobs' we all strive for.
I just don't see where the current leadership at ALPA has what it takes to come up with a satisfactory solution.

Gotta go make my latest contribution to the RJDC.....

 

[AAflyer]

I think another problem is how you are viewed. Here comes the paridgm shift. Stop calling yourself regionals. Eagle, Comair are classified as majors (over 1 Billion in revenue yearly) I am sure others are soon to follow. Use that as leverage.

AAflyer

 

[skydiverdriver]

Hey, AA flyer, I totally agree with you. Delta Airlines is a major, and we at Comair/ASA are a part of them. You are correct that we shouldn't call ourselves a regional, as we are a part of the whole. Of course, I'm not sure what calling ourselves something different is going to do, but we are the only "regional" so far that has been willing to fight for our rights. I hope nobody else has to go out of business before they find out the same thing we did. Good luck to you.

 

[Captain X]

Easy for you to say....

Regional pilots ought to dump ALPA, stop carping, and start their own union.

Judging by your types flown, I gather you've never sat on the "Regional" side of the fence.

 

[AAflyer]

Skydiverdriver,

That is what I am talking about. Who would have guessed 12-15 years ago when scope clauses and commuter supplements were incorporated into contracts that 10 years later "commuters" would become all jet airlines flying coast to coast and anywhere in between.

The sad fact of all this, we are fighting each other. RJDC wants a fair shake and a chance to grow, mainliners want to preserve their routes (yes, I have been on both sides). This is summary. I am sure both sides could expand and expalin much more to wieght their sides, and I am not here to argue that.

I find irony in the way many of the reigonal pilots have been treated, and looked upon as inferior, yet now mainliners would be more than happy to fly those jets (rjs) at "regional" pay and working conditions.

Looking at the pay of the quasi-majors (my new term) ie. Comair,Eagle etc, there should be a way to bring up the pay even more to be more inline with the majors (atleast on a weighted basis) and bring these companies together. Only then would you have both groups truly represented by a union, both pilot groups truly working towards a plan that benefits the whole.

We are in slump, but when the going was good we were paid our high mainline rates and the companies still made billions in revenue and in some cases profits. The quasi-majors are making money, and could still afford to pay more.

Please do not take these comments as greedy, but merely what we are ALL worth. Any management team would like nothing more in the end to fly jets of all sizes paying little in wages. Regardless what you fly (EMB-120 to a 777) you are worth what you negiotate.

AAflyer

 

[V-1]

I respectfully disagree with the statement "you are worth what you negotiate". Perhaps I'm not reading it in the same context as you wrote it, AA flyer. How does anyone arrive at what is "fair value" for their labor? How is a surgeon (who can only kill one person at a time) earning $500k/yr. worth more than a SF-340 pilot who can kill 34 passengers, three crewmembers, and perhaps a few people on the ground as well. Perhaps it's because the pilot has a little more at stake personally than the surgeon?

I'd love to fly a 50 seat CRJ and earn $200k/yr. I don't forsee this happening in our society until inflation becomes rampant. Let's face it, the average American is more willing to pay Shaquille O'neil millions of dollars every year to throw a ball through a hoop and net (60% successful on free-throws, if he's lucky) than to pay what a pilot would be worth based on that logic.

Aviation is subject to the law of supply and demand. So are pilot compensation/quality of life packages. If a pilot group negotiates a compensation package for itself that cannot be supported by current supply and demand conditions, that pilot group should expect to suffer a little until conditions improve.

Too many companies growing too much will lead to failure of the weak.

"The quasi-majors are making money and can still afford to pay more."

The W.O. quasi-majors are part of a team. To use an anology, imagine you had a sled pulled by a team of horses. The sled is full of shareholders who expect performance from the team. If the performance is not there, the shareholders will jump onto another sled. Not all the horses pull at the same rate. At any given time some of the horses are expected to drag some of the other horses that have become bloated from excess. Sometimes its the old horses that lead the charge (when the economy is booming) sometimes it's the younger horses (particularly suited to when the economy is bad).

If you hitch all the horses one after another you still have a chance to pull the sled along through both good and bad times. (Seems CoEX and Continental pilots aren't particularly vocal on these boards about scope issues) If you hitch all the horses next to one another, you're going to have problems. The young horses get bitter about carrying the old ones. The old horses fear being replaced. The sled moves forward, if at all, going sideways in an inefficient manner. The horses concentrate on their differences and their individual goals, not the task of pulling the sled.

The point is, the quasi-majors are part of a team. The money they make is not going to go to their respective pilot groups when the company as a whole is bleeding. Profits from one division must be siphoned off to support another division that isn't performing (perhaps through no fault of their own). Management is in a good position because there will always be strife when pilot groups start talking about merging seniority lists. Junior mainline pilots and senior regional pilots will work against any such proposals.

Thanks for your input, AAflyer. It's nice to see some moderation (on either side of the issue) on here from time to time.

Respectfully,
V-1

 

[AAflyer]

V-1,

You are right, current economics could not pay a CRJ capatain $200k per year,and it could not pay a 777 captain $500k. It is difficult to write a statement and and a have an idea in your head,and not always express it the way you would like too.

I enjoy a very comfortable salary. I would like a little more however I am not going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg (my airline) to get it. I also feel the job you perform DEMANDS more money. I am not asking for brain surgeon salaries (because very frankly you can not compare the two). But when a 3 year 70seat CRJ FO at Eagle makes around $32 bucks an hour (I believe the pay is around that) and a 3 year FO on an F100 is making about a $100 an hour there is a serious problem. The company can afford to pay the fokker rates, and CAN afford to pay the RJ FO more,but are coming up with reasons not too.

As for losses, I am sure we are losing money, but it makes you wonder if some of this is Enron accounting in the other direction. If the CEOs could show on paper massive losses, they could get labor cuts, and eliminate scope clasuses (currently what Carty is lobbying for on Capital Hill).

I agree with much you have said. I am only trying to bring up ideas, and foster thought. I am sure of one thing, we need to ban together now, regardless what airplane we fly..

Thanks for responding.

AAflyer

 

[surplus1]

I am sure of one thing, we need to ban together now, regardless what airplane we fly..
AAflyer

You are very right about this but unfortunately the reality is we are growing further apart by the minunte, not closer together.

I would much prefer not to go the "it's your fault" route, but truth is difficult to avoid. Those who "have" decided more than 10 years ago that the way to keep it was to eliminate those who had less (rather than join forces and raise up the low end) and have pursued that course consistently ever since. They are still doing it, even in the face of bankruptcy.

Meanwhile, those who "have" continue to demand more, and more, and more, seemingly without end. This further reduces what is available to those who never had, to less and less. The net effect is not an increase in available "wealth", but a lopsided distribution of that wealth. The "pie" didn't really get bigger. It's the same pie, with increasing percentages going to those who already have, at the expense of those who do not. The resulting imbalance motivates management to shift the work to the low side, with ever-increasing vigor. The flying, source of the wealth, is moving from the haves to the have nots.

The have nots are not "taking" from the haves, but are being "given" (by management) that which once was reserved only for the chosen few, at much lower cost to management. The balance of the equation is slowly changing, to the benefit of none (that fly).

This will continue until balance is restored by market forces. Continued pursuit of a policy of segregation by the "haves" will not restore the balance, it will simply accelerate the change from disagreement among ourselves, to outright civil war between pilots fighting over the flying. We are already on the brink. Fear not, management stands ready to reap the benefits of our civil strife.

It is true that the "regional" pilot could be paid more. It is equally true that many mainline pilots are paid too much. (Yes, I know I'll catch it for that). IMHO, 100,000 for a 3-yr copilot in an F-100 is excessive as much as 30,000 a year for the same pilot in a CL-700 is too little. Especially so when the productivity of the F-100 pilot is substantially less than that of the CL-700 pilot. Add to that the unmentioned burden (40%+) of the F-100 pilot's compensation package and the disparity widens exponentially.

It is only natural that mangement tries to obtain the services it needs for as little as possible, after all, that is their function. It is their responsibility to pursue profit by any legal means. They are doing that. It is not their fault that our willingness to descriminate against each other and thereby divide ourselves, has given them a decided advantage and a focus on labor costs.

We have created our own problem. Those among us who "have" are so dedicated to its protection and the pursuit of more, that they have in fact provided the tool that will ultimately lower ALL of us, if we do not join forces. The fable of the goose that laid the golden egg comes to mind. Mainline pilots are killing their own goose.

I wish that I could believe we will come together before there is too much damage to either "side" but candidly, I don't see it happening. I'm afraid there will be much more civil war between us, before there is peace and unity, followed by progress for all. It's sad.

This is not something that has happened because of 9/11. That sad event merely served to accelerate a process that was well under way, much before.

 

[AAflyer]

I am not sure the productivty of the f100 is that much less then CRJ-700 even if at all. Once again the airlines came to an agreement with these pay rates when times were good or bad, because they felt it was acceptable. Obviously it hurts now, but even if we were all to fly for free AMR according to it's numbers would still be losing money. NO I don't agree with we are paid to much, but that is for another thread.

I do fear you are right about unity. There are those who want, and those who have, there those that do not understand what is gong on if you put data in front of their face.

Maybe through channels such as this board, and when cool heads prevail each side can better understand the other, and in time we all end up with atleast something we can live with.

Wishing all pilots would unite,

AAflyer