Dealing With Teenage Students

[lymanm]

I'm just posting this to have you guys dissect a situation...I have zero support at work from another CFI for reasonsI'll get into.

I'm 23 and instructing at a lazy Part 61 school, 99% PPL students. There is another instructor here my age, doing the same thing. We both have a variety of students, and this tale is to do with 2 16 y/o students we each have. My student only has about 3 hours of solo time, and the other CFI's student has about 30 (dad owns a plane). My fellow CFI lets his teenage student take the plane up whenever he wants, with or without endorsement. He's also extraordinarily "casual" with regards to many other habits (flying VFR into IMC, using his cell phone while teaching), but that is another story.

Anyway, so my teenage student and the other CFI's teenage student decide to do formation flying on a 50ft low approach at an uncontrolled field. The airport manager called us and warned us he was going to get them violated if I didn't talk to them. When my student returned, I confronted him and forcefully told him off ("I'm disappointed at your decions making process" etc etc etc) and subsequently suspended his solo endorsement. The other CFI talked to his student and casually scolded him, but nothing further. His reaction to his student ruins my credibility and makes me look way too anal. Part of my dilemma is also that I'm not that much older than these guys and yet I have to come across as almost parental, and I must admit I'm not comfortable with it.

Part of this problem is also dealing the fact that these 2 guys are 16 and are inexplicably cocky with their whole 35 hours of PIC between them.

I'm not even sure what I'm looking for here, but these questions come to mind...Did I overract? Is it my place to scold the other CFI's student? Should I confront this other CFI (he's a good friend away from the airport)? Has anyone had to deal with renegade teenage students (who own their own plane)?

Thanks for hearing me rant. Happy 4th.

 

[flytheblue]

Don't feel bad about suspending your student's solo endorsement. What he did with the amount of time he has could easily be considered careless and reckless....all you need is for that airport manager to call the FAA and paint a really bad picture about what happened. Pissed off people always make things sound worse than they actually were. Remember that solo students are on YOUR ticket...so you are considered to be almost directly responsible for what they do as far as the FAA is concerned. I would definately talk to the other CFI...letting a student fly w/o an endorsement isn't legal. Wonder why he would do that? They only need one recurring endorsement and it's good for 90 days. You should probably mention the pissed off airport manager that was threatening to call the FAA. If that doesn't change his too casual attitude a bit, I'm not sure what will. Were they just flying low or doing anything else?

 

[propilot1983]

I'm not even sure what I'm looking for here, but these questions come to mind...Did I overract? Is it my place to scold the other CFI's student? Should I confront this other CFI (he's a good friend away from the airport)? Has anyone had to deal with renegade teenage students (who own their own plane)?

I don't think you overreacted. My students get handed a Flight Training Operations Handbook when they buy their CPC Kit that has some basic rules to follow as well as some limitations. First off, formation flight is not allowed while operating on a student pilot certificate. I do not think that it is your place to scold the other CFI's student because it is his responsibility. As for approaching your friend, that is up to you. It could bring friction between you two or he may respect your advice. As for suspending your student's solo privledges, is that just for the flight school or did you do something to his certificate/logbook? If you did something to his logbook/certificate, you could be opening yourself up to legal issues because those documents are his even though you have your name in it and can be considered destruction of property (this bit of info came from an FAA ops guy when I was getting ready for my CFI practical). Just a word of caution. Keep your chin up, you are doing the right thing IMO.

 

[propilot1983]

I would definately talk to the other CFI...letting a student fly w/o an endorsement isn't legal. Wonder why he would do that? They only need one recurring endorsement and it's good for 90 days.

If the student has been signed off for solo and is within his 90 day currency endorsement, the student can legally take the aircraft up w/o the instructor being there, correct? I've seen this situation occur before. However, almost every FBO's requires an instructor to be there when the student is up soloing. Not much you can do but calm the student pilot down if something does go wrong or he/she gets scared.

Andrew

 

[FracCapt]

Both students exhibited extremely poor judgement. If you have any further problems with your student, you need to terminate his training immediately. If he goes to another school/instructor, so be it - but warn that instructor and your local FSDO. It may seem harsh, but it's necessary IMO. Don't let this guy kill himself or somebody else due to lack of respect for the rules, lack of supervision, or lack of common sense.

You were 100% right to do what you did....although I, personally, would have terminated his training and revoked his endorsement immediately - and notified the local FSDO. If the other instructor is not doing his job in reprimanding his student, you need to talk to him first - and if that gets you nowhere, talk to the student. If he is not receptive, notify the FSDO.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

While not a CFI (and thus I can't get into punishments and revoking the endorsement), I would support your decision as a fellow pilot sharing the same airspace. It's bad enough that he decided to do a formation flight, but at 50' AGL?

My question would be is the other student a bad example that your student is immitating or is your student stupid enough to go and do this on his own? If the other student is pressuring your student to do this stuff, you need to get it through your students head that HE is the one making the decisions in the aircraft, not his friends or his ego. It is your job to keep your student out of trouble (up to and including stopping his training). Everyone makes mistakes, the student may learn something valuable from this one and where to draw the line on who is PIC.

You will need to talk to your fellow CFI. If he is reasonable, ask him if he would fly a formation flight down to 50' with a student pilot in the other aircraft? If he says no, ask him why he would allow one of his students to do it? (just one way to go at the situation but something does need to be said, if not for a professional duty but also from a personal one)

The other student isn't your problem and if he does create a problem (buzzing the field or other unsafe practices that needlessly endanger people or property), a call to FSDO can take care of it if nothing else. Also, remember that flying without an endorsement (or certificate) is illegal and that they could fail a checkride if the examiner looks at everything and works out the numbers (but since the kid has his own aircraft, your friend really doesn't have any way to stop this short of reporting the kid to the FAA).

Remember, it isn't the age that you are that counts. It's how many hours that you have flown compared to these students. A 69 year old man is STILL a student pilot even though he is three times your age.

 

[bobbysamd]

Punk students

Anyway, so my teenage student and the other CFI's teenage student decide to do formation flying on a 50ft low approach at an uncontrolled field. The airport manager called us and warned us he was going to get them violated if I didn't talk to them. When my student returned, I confronted him and forcefully told him off ("I'm disappointed at your decions making process" etc etc etc) and subsequently suspended his solo endorsement. The other CFI talked to his student and casually scolded him, but nothing further. His reaction to his student ruins my credibility and makes me look way too anal. Part of my dilemma is also that I'm not that much older than these guys and yet I have to come across as almost parental, and I must admit I'm not comfortable with it . . . . I'm not even sure what I'm looking for here, but these questions come to mind...Did I overract?

Several points come to mind.

No, in no way did you overreact. The long and short of it is that students are tied to you until they earn a pilot certificate. Until that time, you bear ultimate responsibility for their actions. If they get violated, guess who the FAA will look to? It will be Y-O-U. Your tickets are on the line and you must protect them.

I've told this story before, so I will try to be brief. At MAPD, I had a student who twice disregarded my instructions for his cross-countries. The second time, he landed at an airport at which I had not endorsed him to land and which was prohibited by our school. I was furious. I could not renege his endorsements, but I could and did send in a NASA report to cover my ass. Maybe you should, too. He really was a good student, but I knocked him down a grade because he did not follow my directions.

Although you might be only a little older than your students, as a flight instructor you represent authority, precisely as as a teacher would in school, which very much makes you "parental." That does not mean that you should rule with an iron hand, but it does mean you cannot be their bud and pal. You are in charge. You must deal with your students at arms' length. Unfortunately, your authority is undermined by your FBO's lackadaisical attitude and your co-worker.

I've seen it happen so many times. You tell your student how you want something done. He talks to his friend who has a different instructor. Your student comes back to you and says, "But (other instructor) said you don't have do it that way." Your response can be, "That's fine. We can always arrange to have (other instructor's name) be your instructor."

Maybe that's the solution. Let your colleague have this other kid. Once again, ultimately, you will be dragged down along with this kid and your certificates will be at risk.

Until a student earns his/her Private, you are the boss. Do not ever compromise your integrity or your certificates. Good luck.

 

[de727ups]

Terminate

If your student is cocky and did formation flying at 50 feet, you are risking your career by continuing to work with him. Give him to the other guy. The one exception would be if he has a complete change of heart after you spoke with him and proves to you in the future that he's taking flight safety more seriously.

If this kid bites it doing something stupid, it won't look good on your resume. I hope you have CFI insurance.....

 

[JetBlast2000]

I would echo everything that has been said!

Regardless of the age discrepancy, you need to set an example. Not just for the other students, but for the reckless guy. If he wants to be a professional, you need to make sure he understands the consequences. 23 is not a lot older in age, but in maturity it is significantly older.



If all else fails, and you don't get the response you need. Pass him along to another instructor with fair warning. Loosing one student will not affect your flight hours adversely. Best of luck.


JB2k

 

[Timebuilder]

Both students exhibited extremely poor judgement. If you have any further problems with your student, you need to terminate his training immediately. If he goes to another school/instructor, so be it - but warn that instructor and your local FSDO. It may seem harsh, but it's necessary IMO. Don't let this guy kill himself or somebody else due to lack of respect for the rules, lack of supervision, or lack of common sense.

You were 100% right to do what you did....although I, personally, would have terminated his training and revoked his endorsement immediately - and notified the local FSDO. If the other instructor is not doing his job in reprimanding his student, you need to talk to him first - and if that gets you nowhere, talk to the student. If he is not receptive, notify the FSDO.

Bingo.

Lose a friend, make an enemy or two, and change schools if it comes down to it. Don't get caught up in letting this kind of thing, which could have been on the evening news all over America if it had gone ka-ka, to go by.

You could also ask for the safety progam manager to stop by under the guise of talking about a report he had about planes in the area performing unsafe maneuvers, and talk about santions for pilots and standards of instruction for CFI's.

Just an idea.

 

[SharkBait]

Sounds like the typical case of "Dad wants me to get this certificate..." He (they) obviously are not that concerned about completing the course and have nothing to loose by having "fun" at the expense of those to take safety seroiusly. You did the right thing by revoking the privleges, but both should have been removed at the same time. Thankfully I have only had to revoke one student's privleges for not following the rules. At my old FBO we had a small list of rules for the students to sign (which outlined the FAR's for students and for safety around the local practice area if they didn't already know them) and stuck fast too them.

The few hours you loose are not worth you certificate, and the rapport you gain with those around you will grow.

 

[plunger]

i just threaten to beat the sh!t out of my students if they don't do what i want.

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

"Part of my dilemma is also that I'm not that much older than these guys and yet I have to come across as almost parental, and I must admit I'm not comfortable with it."



I always wondered why older guys looked kind of grouchy and stiff collared when I was in my teens. I know why now!.

Mark

 

[lymanm]

...

Thanks for the support. Here is what's happened in the past few days:

My student called the airport manager to apologize and to kiss up so that there is no call for the FAA. I didn't officially "endorse" in his logbook indicating his solo suspension, but rather asked my FBO to refuse aircraft rental to him. The thing is, I do think he's a good kid, he definitely is not the type to do this kind of thing. I told him this - that I believed that he wasn't trying to break the rules to be a rebel or something of that nature, but rather out of sheer ignorance. I continued however by saying that regardless of why the rules were broken, they were still broken. I'm going to continue his training because I sincerely believe this was an anomaly.

The other kid, however, is a different story. His father flies for a major airline, and has trained this kid unofficially for years. The kid is a darn good pilot, there's no question. But like his father, he has a cocky attitude (both father and son have been repremanded for doing touch and go's at a field that prohibits them due to a short runway). The father routinely engages in formation flying, so this kid sees this as within a normal frame of reference. This kid and my student go to the same highschool together, so there's no doubt there is peer pressure here. Unfortunately, the other CFI has bought into this kid's above-average flying ability, and believes he is a "god" and possesses way above average fllying skill. So, both father and CFI lead this kid to believe he's as good as he thinks he is, leading to this latest stunt. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about it, and the other CFI doesn't share my view that this is a serious issue. He told the kid that this is not allowed, but nothing more. To me, this kid is a lost cause from my point of view, he's not my student and his CFI is unwilling to take a harsh stance, and his father certainly doesn't care.

The most frustrating thing about this is that the other CFI's decision to do very little about his student affects my credibility with my student, so I'm going to have to watch him carefully and make sure he knows his friend, the other CFI and his friend's father do NOT represent the accepted norm in the aviation community. Thankfully, the reactions I've gotten from friends of mine mirror those that have been posted here. Some of you have suggested terminating my student's training, but I think that is too harsh in this situation. Hopefully, he learns from this and becomes the better pilot for it. If he pulls another stunt like this again, I'm giving him the boot.

Once again, thanks for hearing me out.

Edited for censoring....(d@mn is a cuss word these days?)

 

[ThomasR]

I am not a CFI but I have a certificate to teach in other non aviation areas.

You have a responsibility to your job and both students were involved in an unacceptable activity. You might not be able to directly restrict the other student but you can still get in his face and tell him what effect both their behaviors has caused and what the results might have been. They are not only jeopardizing their own privileges but are misrepresenting your integrity, the other instructors and the company.

 

[nosehair]

One Little Thing.

I just want to jump in here to try to "squelch" a common misunderstanding in this CFI business. The Student is NOT - repeat - NOT "flying on your ticket".
He is if you didn't properly train him. If you just get him proficient enough to fly around the pattern solo with insufficient training to handle the unusual stuff, then he is on your ticket. And I'm not saying I haven't done that - I think we all have - but if it is documented, by way of a presolo knowledge test or other documentation, that he knows not to fly formation, then HE IS RESPONSIBLE.
That is the main point I want to share. When you endorse a student for solo, you are saying he has all the skill and knowledge to fly around within a 25 mile radius any time without your permission. Students who are required to get permission or authorization for each flight don't develop a sense of command authority. They, and the instructor, develop this attitude that the student's mistakes become the instructors. Not so, unless the instructor is not teaching all the required knowledge and skill.
I always tell new instructors, when they sign off a student for solo, they should treat it exactly like the student has his own airplane and can go fly whenever he wants, with no furthur supervision. That is what the FAR's say.
Sure, the FAA will ask some questions of a CFI when a student violates an FAR, but only to determine that the required training did occur. As long as all training listed in 61.87 has been done, the FAA has no reason or authority to initiate action on a CFI.

 

[ThomasR]

nosehair

Good point from an instructors position, however, from a company view point it does not bode well when students from your school are violating reg's and becoming a problem with neighboring facilities.

My point is that there is a business standard that is unwritten but is just as harmful when not appreciated. I could see someone licensed renting an aircraft and using it in a troubling manner, but my understanding was that these were students learning to behave like aviators from your school.

If one of those students were driving your company car with a neon sign on its side and got stopped for driving in a reckless manner, drag racing or pulling wheelies in front of your neighbors house I bet your reaction might be different than saying its not my responsibility.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying on one's tickets . . . .

I just want to jump in here to try to "squelch" a common misunderstanding in this CFI business. The Student is NOT - repeat - NOT "flying on your ticket" . . . .

. . . . but, guaranteed, FSDO will haul the instructor's ass into its office and give him/her the third degree if his/her student is caught doing anything untoward. Penalties against the instructor may not accrue, but an ASI with a hair up his rear could make life terribly difficult for the instructor. Better be sure all paperwork, signoffs, presolo exams and the like are absolutely in order and you have sized up the student properly before you let him/her loose.

At ERAU, there was an individual denominated as the "flight supervisor" who ensured that all certificates, signoffs and flight planning were in order before students were let loose on flight. Even students with their Privates had to submit to the flight supervisor's scrutiny. It might seem like Riddle overprotective overkill, and it was at times, but still not a bad idea to prevent cowboy students slip through the cracks.

 

[Tired Soul]

Did my CFI at a school where ALL students were required to have their Navlog

checked and signed by an instructor. Did not matter if you were timebuilding for your commercial or what.
Personally I can't deal with teenage students anymore.
They just annoy me too much. Sure I'm stereo typing here...
My favorite student is the mature 40+ who appreciates the effort you put into their training. I'm the most senior CFI where I work so I can pass all the teenies along to people that still have the patience.
I've pulled somebody's solo priviliges once.
Not literally ripped it out of his logbook but told him he would not fly solo anymore till further notice. He acted against my instructions and against the limitations I put on his solo XC endorsement. How do I know?
I'm the eye in the sky baby and I happened to be on the same approach frequency as him and heard him request what I absolutely forbid him, fly at 4500' above the clouds. He denied it after he came back.
What a total pain this guy...
Was into bodybuilding also and taking all these supplements that made him bounce of the wall at 2AM. I had a spy in the house with him who kept me in the loop on Mr Superpilot.
Actually called the feds in Oklahoma to see if they could make him take another medical since he had told me he had stopped taking this stuff to pass it the first time. How dumb to you have to be...

 

[nosehair]

The Learning Process

If one of those students were driving your company car with a neon sign on its side and got stopped for driving in a reckless manner, drag racing or pulling wheelies in front of your neighbors house I bet your reaction might be different than saying its not my responsibility.

You bet your sweet hiney it is my resposibility to supervise, correct, and control my student's progress in training. Doesn't matter if it is a pre-solo learning to solo, or a solo working on a private, or a private working on commercial, or whatever, it is my moral responsibilty to do what everyone here is agreeing on - that we are responsible for our student's actions - to the degree that we teach them proper community behavior.
And yes, you will have to answer to the FAA for your student's misconduct, but only to the point of assuring that sufficient training was done.
Now, proving that may be a problem, but that is what we all are guilty of: insufficient documentation, myself included.
But my TRAINING POINT is, that we are bringing up a bunch of babies who discover if they can whine and point a finger at someone else (the school, the instructor, the FAA,..yatta,yatta,yatta), they will NEVER develop the sense of command and control that you get when you take on FULL AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY for your actions.
Hey!...a student is supposed to KNOW all of 61.Sub Part C Student Pilots, and applicable parts of 91 before he solo's. And that INCLUDES (and should be emphasized) 91.3 PIC Authority and Responsibility as well as 91.103 Having All The Facts and Data to make Command Decisions.