Dealing With Teenage Students

[SharkBait]

Sounds like the typical case of "Dad wants me to get this certificate..." He (they) obviously are not that concerned about completing the course and have nothing to loose by having "fun" at the expense of those to take safety seroiusly. You did the right thing by revoking the privleges, but both should have been removed at the same time. Thankfully I have only had to revoke one student's privleges for not following the rules. At my old FBO we had a small list of rules for the students to sign (which outlined the FAR's for students and for safety around the local practice area if they didn't already know them) and stuck fast too them.

The few hours you loose are not worth you certificate, and the rapport you gain with those around you will grow.

 

[plunger]

i just threaten to beat the sh!t out of my students if they don't do what i want.

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

"Part of my dilemma is also that I'm not that much older than these guys and yet I have to come across as almost parental, and I must admit I'm not comfortable with it."



I always wondered why older guys looked kind of grouchy and stiff collared when I was in my teens. I know why now!.

Mark

 

[lymanm]

...

Thanks for the support. Here is what's happened in the past few days:

My student called the airport manager to apologize and to kiss up so that there is no call for the FAA. I didn't officially "endorse" in his logbook indicating his solo suspension, but rather asked my FBO to refuse aircraft rental to him. The thing is, I do think he's a good kid, he definitely is not the type to do this kind of thing. I told him this - that I believed that he wasn't trying to break the rules to be a rebel or something of that nature, but rather out of sheer ignorance. I continued however by saying that regardless of why the rules were broken, they were still broken. I'm going to continue his training because I sincerely believe this was an anomaly.

The other kid, however, is a different story. His father flies for a major airline, and has trained this kid unofficially for years. The kid is a darn good pilot, there's no question. But like his father, he has a cocky attitude (both father and son have been repremanded for doing touch and go's at a field that prohibits them due to a short runway). The father routinely engages in formation flying, so this kid sees this as within a normal frame of reference. This kid and my student go to the same highschool together, so there's no doubt there is peer pressure here. Unfortunately, the other CFI has bought into this kid's above-average flying ability, and believes he is a "god" and possesses way above average fllying skill. So, both father and CFI lead this kid to believe he's as good as he thinks he is, leading to this latest stunt. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about it, and the other CFI doesn't share my view that this is a serious issue. He told the kid that this is not allowed, but nothing more. To me, this kid is a lost cause from my point of view, he's not my student and his CFI is unwilling to take a harsh stance, and his father certainly doesn't care.

The most frustrating thing about this is that the other CFI's decision to do very little about his student affects my credibility with my student, so I'm going to have to watch him carefully and make sure he knows his friend, the other CFI and his friend's father do NOT represent the accepted norm in the aviation community. Thankfully, the reactions I've gotten from friends of mine mirror those that have been posted here. Some of you have suggested terminating my student's training, but I think that is too harsh in this situation. Hopefully, he learns from this and becomes the better pilot for it. If he pulls another stunt like this again, I'm giving him the boot.

Once again, thanks for hearing me out.

Edited for censoring....(d@mn is a cuss word these days?)

 

[ThomasR]

I am not a CFI but I have a certificate to teach in other non aviation areas.

You have a responsibility to your job and both students were involved in an unacceptable activity. You might not be able to directly restrict the other student but you can still get in his face and tell him what effect both their behaviors has caused and what the results might have been. They are not only jeopardizing their own privileges but are misrepresenting your integrity, the other instructors and the company.

 

[nosehair]

One Little Thing.

I just want to jump in here to try to "squelch" a common misunderstanding in this CFI business. The Student is NOT - repeat - NOT "flying on your ticket".
He is if you didn't properly train him. If you just get him proficient enough to fly around the pattern solo with insufficient training to handle the unusual stuff, then he is on your ticket. And I'm not saying I haven't done that - I think we all have - but if it is documented, by way of a presolo knowledge test or other documentation, that he knows not to fly formation, then HE IS RESPONSIBLE.
That is the main point I want to share. When you endorse a student for solo, you are saying he has all the skill and knowledge to fly around within a 25 mile radius any time without your permission. Students who are required to get permission or authorization for each flight don't develop a sense of command authority. They, and the instructor, develop this attitude that the student's mistakes become the instructors. Not so, unless the instructor is not teaching all the required knowledge and skill.
I always tell new instructors, when they sign off a student for solo, they should treat it exactly like the student has his own airplane and can go fly whenever he wants, with no furthur supervision. That is what the FAR's say.
Sure, the FAA will ask some questions of a CFI when a student violates an FAR, but only to determine that the required training did occur. As long as all training listed in 61.87 has been done, the FAA has no reason or authority to initiate action on a CFI.

 

[ThomasR]

nosehair

Good point from an instructors position, however, from a company view point it does not bode well when students from your school are violating reg's and becoming a problem with neighboring facilities.

My point is that there is a business standard that is unwritten but is just as harmful when not appreciated. I could see someone licensed renting an aircraft and using it in a troubling manner, but my understanding was that these were students learning to behave like aviators from your school.

If one of those students were driving your company car with a neon sign on its side and got stopped for driving in a reckless manner, drag racing or pulling wheelies in front of your neighbors house I bet your reaction might be different than saying its not my responsibility.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying on one's tickets . . . .

I just want to jump in here to try to "squelch" a common misunderstanding in this CFI business. The Student is NOT - repeat - NOT "flying on your ticket" . . . .

. . . . but, guaranteed, FSDO will haul the instructor's ass into its office and give him/her the third degree if his/her student is caught doing anything untoward. Penalties against the instructor may not accrue, but an ASI with a hair up his rear could make life terribly difficult for the instructor. Better be sure all paperwork, signoffs, presolo exams and the like are absolutely in order and you have sized up the student properly before you let him/her loose.

At ERAU, there was an individual denominated as the "flight supervisor" who ensured that all certificates, signoffs and flight planning were in order before students were let loose on flight. Even students with their Privates had to submit to the flight supervisor's scrutiny. It might seem like Riddle overprotective overkill, and it was at times, but still not a bad idea to prevent cowboy students slip through the cracks.

 

[Tired Soul]

Did my CFI at a school where ALL students were required to have their Navlog

checked and signed by an instructor. Did not matter if you were timebuilding for your commercial or what.
Personally I can't deal with teenage students anymore.
They just annoy me too much. Sure I'm stereo typing here...
My favorite student is the mature 40+ who appreciates the effort you put into their training. I'm the most senior CFI where I work so I can pass all the teenies along to people that still have the patience.
I've pulled somebody's solo priviliges once.
Not literally ripped it out of his logbook but told him he would not fly solo anymore till further notice. He acted against my instructions and against the limitations I put on his solo XC endorsement. How do I know?
I'm the eye in the sky baby and I happened to be on the same approach frequency as him and heard him request what I absolutely forbid him, fly at 4500' above the clouds. He denied it after he came back.
What a total pain this guy...
Was into bodybuilding also and taking all these supplements that made him bounce of the wall at 2AM. I had a spy in the house with him who kept me in the loop on Mr Superpilot.
Actually called the feds in Oklahoma to see if they could make him take another medical since he had told me he had stopped taking this stuff to pass it the first time. How dumb to you have to be...

 

[nosehair]

The Learning Process

If one of those students were driving your company car with a neon sign on its side and got stopped for driving in a reckless manner, drag racing or pulling wheelies in front of your neighbors house I bet your reaction might be different than saying its not my responsibility.

You bet your sweet hiney it is my resposibility to supervise, correct, and control my student's progress in training. Doesn't matter if it is a pre-solo learning to solo, or a solo working on a private, or a private working on commercial, or whatever, it is my moral responsibilty to do what everyone here is agreeing on - that we are responsible for our student's actions - to the degree that we teach them proper community behavior.
And yes, you will have to answer to the FAA for your student's misconduct, but only to the point of assuring that sufficient training was done.
Now, proving that may be a problem, but that is what we all are guilty of: insufficient documentation, myself included.
But my TRAINING POINT is, that we are bringing up a bunch of babies who discover if they can whine and point a finger at someone else (the school, the instructor, the FAA,..yatta,yatta,yatta), they will NEVER develop the sense of command and control that you get when you take on FULL AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY for your actions.
Hey!...a student is supposed to KNOW all of 61.Sub Part C Student Pilots, and applicable parts of 91 before he solo's. And that INCLUDES (and should be emphasized) 91.3 PIC Authority and Responsibility as well as 91.103 Having All The Facts and Data to make Command Decisions.