Dealing With Teenage Students

[nosehair]

One Little Thing.

I just want to jump in here to try to "squelch" a common misunderstanding in this CFI business. The Student is NOT - repeat - NOT "flying on your ticket".
He is if you didn't properly train him. If you just get him proficient enough to fly around the pattern solo with insufficient training to handle the unusual stuff, then he is on your ticket. And I'm not saying I haven't done that - I think we all have - but if it is documented, by way of a presolo knowledge test or other documentation, that he knows not to fly formation, then HE IS RESPONSIBLE.
That is the main point I want to share. When you endorse a student for solo, you are saying he has all the skill and knowledge to fly around within a 25 mile radius any time without your permission. Students who are required to get permission or authorization for each flight don't develop a sense of command authority. They, and the instructor, develop this attitude that the student's mistakes become the instructors. Not so, unless the instructor is not teaching all the required knowledge and skill.
I always tell new instructors, when they sign off a student for solo, they should treat it exactly like the student has his own airplane and can go fly whenever he wants, with no furthur supervision. That is what the FAR's say.
Sure, the FAA will ask some questions of a CFI when a student violates an FAR, but only to determine that the required training did occur. As long as all training listed in 61.87 has been done, the FAA has no reason or authority to initiate action on a CFI.

 

[ThomasR]

nosehair

Good point from an instructors position, however, from a company view point it does not bode well when students from your school are violating reg's and becoming a problem with neighboring facilities.

My point is that there is a business standard that is unwritten but is just as harmful when not appreciated. I could see someone licensed renting an aircraft and using it in a troubling manner, but my understanding was that these were students learning to behave like aviators from your school.

If one of those students were driving your company car with a neon sign on its side and got stopped for driving in a reckless manner, drag racing or pulling wheelies in front of your neighbors house I bet your reaction might be different than saying its not my responsibility.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying on one's tickets . . . .

I just want to jump in here to try to "squelch" a common misunderstanding in this CFI business. The Student is NOT - repeat - NOT "flying on your ticket" . . . .

. . . . but, guaranteed, FSDO will haul the instructor's ass into its office and give him/her the third degree if his/her student is caught doing anything untoward. Penalties against the instructor may not accrue, but an ASI with a hair up his rear could make life terribly difficult for the instructor. Better be sure all paperwork, signoffs, presolo exams and the like are absolutely in order and you have sized up the student properly before you let him/her loose.

At ERAU, there was an individual denominated as the "flight supervisor" who ensured that all certificates, signoffs and flight planning were in order before students were let loose on flight. Even students with their Privates had to submit to the flight supervisor's scrutiny. It might seem like Riddle overprotective overkill, and it was at times, but still not a bad idea to prevent cowboy students slip through the cracks.

 

[Tired Soul]

Did my CFI at a school where ALL students were required to have their Navlog

checked and signed by an instructor. Did not matter if you were timebuilding for your commercial or what.
Personally I can't deal with teenage students anymore.
They just annoy me too much. Sure I'm stereo typing here...
My favorite student is the mature 40+ who appreciates the effort you put into their training. I'm the most senior CFI where I work so I can pass all the teenies along to people that still have the patience.
I've pulled somebody's solo priviliges once.
Not literally ripped it out of his logbook but told him he would not fly solo anymore till further notice. He acted against my instructions and against the limitations I put on his solo XC endorsement. How do I know?
I'm the eye in the sky baby and I happened to be on the same approach frequency as him and heard him request what I absolutely forbid him, fly at 4500' above the clouds. He denied it after he came back.
What a total pain this guy...
Was into bodybuilding also and taking all these supplements that made him bounce of the wall at 2AM. I had a spy in the house with him who kept me in the loop on Mr Superpilot.
Actually called the feds in Oklahoma to see if they could make him take another medical since he had told me he had stopped taking this stuff to pass it the first time. How dumb to you have to be...

 

[nosehair]

The Learning Process

If one of those students were driving your company car with a neon sign on its side and got stopped for driving in a reckless manner, drag racing or pulling wheelies in front of your neighbors house I bet your reaction might be different than saying its not my responsibility.

You bet your sweet hiney it is my resposibility to supervise, correct, and control my student's progress in training. Doesn't matter if it is a pre-solo learning to solo, or a solo working on a private, or a private working on commercial, or whatever, it is my moral responsibilty to do what everyone here is agreeing on - that we are responsible for our student's actions - to the degree that we teach them proper community behavior.
And yes, you will have to answer to the FAA for your student's misconduct, but only to the point of assuring that sufficient training was done.
Now, proving that may be a problem, but that is what we all are guilty of: insufficient documentation, myself included.
But my TRAINING POINT is, that we are bringing up a bunch of babies who discover if they can whine and point a finger at someone else (the school, the instructor, the FAA,..yatta,yatta,yatta), they will NEVER develop the sense of command and control that you get when you take on FULL AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY for your actions.
Hey!...a student is supposed to KNOW all of 61.Sub Part C Student Pilots, and applicable parts of 91 before he solo's. And that INCLUDES (and should be emphasized) 91.3 PIC Authority and Responsibility as well as 91.103 Having All The Facts and Data to make Command Decisions.

 

[pilotman2105]

...They are not only jeopardizing their own privileges but are misrepresenting your integrity, the other instructors and the company.

And aviation as a whole.

Airplanes and the like have gotten a bad reputation from the media and various other public misconceptions. These/This arrogant student(s) are simply perpetuating those thoughts.

Hopefully things smooth out for you. I would pay a bunch not to be in your shoes some day.

 

[bobbysamd]

Not all teenage students are bad . . .

I stand by everything I wrote above. But I feel some counterpoint is in order.

There is always a danger in generalizations. Not all teenage flight students are cowboy punks. Example: In the late '80s, Oklahoma Wing CAP put on flight encampments for cadets. I was an instructor in the program one year and Project Officer for the program the next year. The program provided ten hours of flight instruction to selected cadets in the wing's 172s leading to solo. The cadets had to go before a selection board (compare to an airline interview board) and a flight screening with a CAP instructor (compare to a sim ride) to determine if they had potential. Most of them soloed.

These cadets were outstanding, motivated young people who took the program and their flying seriously. I picked up one cadet who had soloed with another instructor and finished him for his Private. He was my first signoff. I'm sure he learned a few things from me but I probably learned more by training him.

My point is not all teenage students are irresponsible. For that matter, quite a few adult students can be dangerous. Our job as instructors is to astutely separate the responsible from the irresponsible and deal with the latter group appropriately. You'll be surprised, as I was, how readily young people pick up flying. They really can be fun to instruct, and by foreclosing on young people you will foreclose on some of the joy of instructing good students. Just beware of the bad apples.

 

[ThomasR]

I learned to fly in the Army. Instructors were in your face all the time. They got physical if you made a mistake. They taught to keep your focus on flying no matter what was going on outside the aircraft or inside. So my perspective is skewed in that direction.

There are many types of flying also: beside passenger airlines, there is cargo, sport flying, racing, site seeing, advertising & movies, power line inspections, etc. Each takes a certain skill and attitude to enjoy that particular aspect of the industry. I think we might all have strayed from time to time and I think where we stray becomes part of where we realy want to go.

Airline pilots are probably the safest pilots in the industry, that is they fly by the numbers with everything in order. Crop dusting takes another type of attitude. I think as an instructor part of your job is to see the kind of pilot your students want to become but do not have the knowledge yet to see it in themselves.

Everyone says they want to be airline pilots because they are the super stars. But many realy would not be happy doing that kind of flying. One thing is for sure; rules and regs are there for a reason and to fly in any industry requires we learn to reason through the temptation to exceed the limits.

 

[Tired Soul]

Bobbysamd, as usual you have something intelligent to say.

Just my point is I can't be bothered anymore teaching people with the attention span of a goldfish. Sure I 've had excellent teenage students, but in my opinion they're more the exception then the rule. To be frank I've pretty much had it with PPL- training. In my first couple of years as a CFI I enjoyed having as many full time PPL students as I could fit in a day...after 4 years I'm just out of patience.
I prefer instrument and commercial now. More my problem than theirs I agree but still. I truly care about my students but "Tired Soul" is my cranky alter ego..
I'm surprised I managed to stay sane as long as I have. So while I'm in the postion now I'll pass on most of the teenies thank you.
But like you said there are bad apples in every age group.