DALPA Conflict of Interest

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed, but would a DOH integration be fair to the VA pilot? These things are complicated, and one-size-fits-all policies don't work. That's why we have ALPA merger policy.

Well then you didn't read the original point that I responded to.....Michael said you should be in the same percentage that you are currently. In other words he said the bottom 5% should stay in the bottom 5%, regardless of DOH/longevity.....Using that logic, a senior Virgin America pilot with a year would be a B777 Capt. at Delta.....Not realistic is it?

The current ALPA merger policy is flawed because it is too subjective.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Don't you have someone to sue? Don't worry joey, you'll get the memo when DL starts to talk of scope again!

No....I don't have this mess to deal with....I work for a profitable company and I don't have to deal with egomaniacs like you......

 

[Scope out RJ's]

No....I don't have this mess to deal with....I work for a profitable company and I don't have to deal with egomaniacs like you......

Egomaniacs? :laugh: Who's the one with who tried to steal a $billion from his union?
You didn't go spending all that money did you?
Don't worry though, all those former co workers of yours aren't laughing with you, they're laughing at you! After all it will only take them 3 years to get to the same pay it took you to get in 15 years!:laugh:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I do not like the idea of fences but it does appear that there might be some.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No....I don't have this mess to deal with....I work for a profitable company and I don't have to deal with egomaniacs like you......

Joe, that you do, but be careful. Lots of things are going to change in the RJ world in the next year or so.

And Joe, Egomaniacs? I sat with you in ground school a few times. That is the pot calling the kettle black. By virtue of what we do and who we are we are all guilty of that.

 

[michael707767]

Actually in the case I used.....DOH would be better for the Delta pilots than any ratio with Virgin....Their senior pilot only has a little over a year....

Back to your "career expectations" BS.....Did the 1999 Northwest hire have less "expectations" then the 2007 Delta hire? How about the NWA pilot who hired into a Southern Metroliner with 19 seats and props? What was his career expectations?

Just stirring the pot and challenging conventional wisdom....

In the case of VA merging with DL, I dont know exactly where they would fit, but a VA captain should do better than DOH. No matter how you slice it, they are bringing a captain seat to the table. But you have to look at everything, no just when someone was hired. And it's not just about what is better for the Delta pilots.

Lets challenge conventional wisdom some more. Would you advocate DOH if DL or NWA was merging with ASA or Pinnacle? Do you really thing an ASA pilot hired one day has the same job, career expectation, etc as a DL pilot hired the next day?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The answer is no, and that is why over 70 ASA pilots came to Delta in the last two years.

 

[ASA_DFW]

Most of us who left ASA for DL were in the top 25 percent of the company. We knew our career expectations would be different at Delta. That is why we left.

The number of RJ's in the Delta system will change. There is a downward trend from the non-wholly owned. Does ASA have any future RJ orders on the books? The ATR is gone. The 50 seat is next.

 

[vprMatrix]

Well then you didn't read the original point that I responded to.....Michael said you should be in the same percentage that you are currently. In other words he said the bottom 5% should stay in the bottom 5%, regardless of DOH/longevity.....Using that logic, a senior Virgin America pilot with a year would be a B777 Capt. at Delta.....Not realistic is it?

The current ALPA merger policy is flawed because it is too subjective.....

I don't know about Michael's statement but I think you will find the goal is to be "fair." You mentioned fairness above, which is not a fact but rather in the eye of the beholder.

With that in mind you must look at equipment, pay, carrier progression, type of flying (int, domestic, etc.) in order to make a fair integration. A DOH list would not be fair for a VA DAL merger just as a pure ratio would not be. A relative position on equipment type ratio weighted for pay and expectations would be "fair" to everyone. In the case of a DL VA merger it would likely be a heavy weight in Delta's favor however a Captain at VA should maintain a similar schedule and pay as a result of the combined list.

What's your version of "fair?"

 

[ACL65PILOT]

He posts!

Do you really want to know what Joe thinks?

 

[michael707767]

In other words he said the bottom 5% should stay in the bottom 5%, regardless of DOH/longevity.....Using that logic, a senior Virgin America pilot with a year would be a B777 Capt. at Delta........

you are taking things way out of context. In a DL/NW merger, after looking at the aircraft we fly, the aircraft that are going away, aircraft coming in, retirements, pay rates, etc, I think this merger should go pretty much along the lines of relative position.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Michael. You must put relative position, by EQUIPMENT. NWA would be happy with a relative position on the seniority list, it is a windfall by many means.

 

[michael707767]

Michael. You must put relative position, by EQUIPMENT. NWA would be happy with a relative position on the seniority list, it is a windfall by many means.

Yes, for the most part I do. Relative position to me means just as you say. A junior narrowbody captain gets merged in with a junior narrowbody captain. Percentages come into play too, if the fleets are closely enough aligned.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly, and as this exhaustive argument continues to be played out, we all know that we have more "wide body" positions that they do. Hence the reason for DOH disparity amongst the ranks.
Furthermore, if you look at the DALPA proposed list, people are merged in on like equipment using the stovepipe effect.
I am a 73N FO under this method, and guess what, I am merged in with 320 guys. Using the MOA's the respective MEC' signed with the JPWA and not using those payrates et al, it is where I would expect to be. NO Bump no flush.

 

[vprMatrix]

He posts!

Do you really want to know what Joe thinks?

No, but it would be entertaining to see.:beer:

For someone who puts the following in all his post:
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner"
Joe sure doesn't seem to get that a lot of factors must be considered and a responsible decision must be made by people (DAL/NW Merger Representatives or an Arbitration Panel) that must try to represent the best interest of all of the pilots.

 

[michael707767]

I am a 73N FO under this method, and guess what, I am merged in with 320 guys. Using the MOA's the respective MEC' signed with the JPWA and not using those payrates et al, it is where I would expect to be. NO Bump no flush.

yep same here. I can hold junior 767 captain, 73N captain, 88 captain and on down. Most guys my seniority are junior narrowbody captains or fairly senior widebody FOs. On the list that I have seen (don't know if it's accurate) that is where I end up on the combined list with NW. Junior 320 and DC-9 captains or fairly senior 747 or 330 FO's. Which I think is exactly where I should go relative to the NW list.

 

[FBN0223]

yep same here. I can hold junior 767 captain, 73N captain, 88 captain and on down. Most guys my seniority are junior narrowbody captains or fairly senior widebody FOs. On the list that I have seen (don't know if it's accurate) that is where I end up on the combined list with NW. Junior 320 and DC-9 captains or fairly senior 747 or 330 FO's. Which I think is exactly where I should go relative to the NW list.

There's our problem. In your mind, the solution revolves solely around you and keeping some sort of your fictional seniority contrived by unreasonable ideas. I understand how you don't want to be shoved in DC-9 or be a junior widebody FO but to make all of the planets align and your seniority dreams come true, you are willing to completely throw another group under the bus. Newsflash: It's not all about you.

Things for you to consider:
1) It's not just where you are NOW, but where you will be in on the seniority list in five, ten, or twenty years from now. In my case, I would be retiring in the top 4% of NWA pilots. I would be willing to sacrifice a few percentage points, but when you drop 1500 Delta guys in front of me who are junior, I'd be lucky to retire in the top 20%.
You, Sir, talk about career expectations. Mine were to retire a B747-400 Captain not a B767ER FO.

2) Hitting a home run on the SLI for either group is disastrous. Want to see a "happy" place go to a not so "happy" place. DALPA's proposal would accomplish that quite well.

3) We are retiring more pilots than you. Once again you get to move up the list on retirements that should have been solely ours. And once again you're welcome.

Strictly DOH may not be the best. I'll sacrifice 100 numbers or so, sort of throwing you guys a bone, but not 1500.

good luck

 

[MCDU]

FBN0223 you sound like a whining USAIR East pilot.
Seniority has nothing to do with longevity. The snap shot now counts and not what you could hold. You will be junior, because you are junior at this present time. I do not care if you were senior or will be senior. What counts is now. Its all about a snap shot. I love ALPA merger policy. Thats one of the many reasons why we voted them out. NWA should have done the same. Its to late. You will not have the numbers.

M

 

[~~~^~~~]

There's our problem. In your mind, the solution revolves solely around you and keeping some sort of your fictional seniority contrived by unreasonable ideas. I understand how you don't want to be shoved in DC-9 or be a junior widebody FO but to make all of the planets align and your seniority dreams come true, you are willing to completely throw another group under the bus. Newsflash: It's not all about you.

Things for you to consider:
1) It's not just where you are NOW, but where you will be in on the seniority list in five, ten, or twenty years from now.

good luck

Sir,

You call this "contrived by unreasonable ideas" yet, today, he holds this position. His position is reality and in a few days there will be an advanced entitlement for more open seats at DAL.

I do not see how 20 years from now trumps the "here and now." He should get no less than status quo.

 

[FBN0223]

Seniority has nothing to do with longevity.

M

Funny, I did not know NWA was the only airline that practiced such nonsense. How do you do seniority at Delta? Last four of your SS# perhaps?