DALLAPA this is fair ?

[FDJ2]

nwaredtail quote: "Well, aren't we full of ourselves, imagine that. We are your only hope tiger, better start sweet talking a bit."

Give it a rest, no one is trying to date you. Over playing your hand, pretending time lines don't exist and being so full of yourselves that you think you ought to be courted has netted you zero. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

On a positive note, I expect the negotiators will be meeting soon. So let's hope they can work out a mutually beneficial deal for both pilot groups.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Superpilot:

Delta negotiated with Delta management Delta scope that permitted flying performed by NWA, which will be operated under Delta Air Lines. I think your side intended to send a message by going on vacation....

Still, LOA 19 takes nothing from you and provides you with whipsaw protection while we try to work together on a joint agreement. Would you prefer that Delta management just do the merger and tell us to file a grievance over Section 1?

You want to negotiate with your management? Go right ahead.

You are better off with LOA 19 than without it. We all are. We built a floor, not a ceiling. Waiting on you to come over and help put the rafters on this place.

IMHO we did not exclude you, but remember what I wrote about intransigence = irrelevance. Your MEC did get outmanuevered, but given the demand for arbitration there had to be some point where the Delta MEC took a defensive position. As things continue I expect that aggresiveness will be met with well planned & effective defenses.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I can't explain the greedy windfall comment,

Exactly imp:

 

[Schwanker]

Waiting on you to come over and help put the rafters on this place.

Are they flame retardant?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Are they flame retardant?

:laugh: :laugh:

LOL

 

[JohnQ]

Actually they did tell us all about the money Delta MEC gets from management too.

They must have been talking about section 24J of our contract, which stipulates that the flight pay loss for about 10 or so senior MEC positions will be paid by the company without reimbursement due from ALPA.

Or they might have been talking about the blurb in our LOA 19 that stated something like "the company will reimburse ALPA for all reasonable costs associated with the merger, etc."

In any case, it looks to me like our negotiators have done a pretty good job getting the company to pay some of our union expenses! Why don't you prod your side to negotiate better?

By the way I think the red/green/blue book is now over. I think we are united against the widgets now.

Well unity by any means is a good thing, I suppose. I still haven't figured out why you are mad at the DAL boys. Still, I wonder how "unified" the first 747-400 crew will be when there is a two captain, two FO pairing (which the DAL work rules will provide for, by the way) and one of the captains is a new "green book" who just got the position due to the DAL rules. I would love to hear the chatter in that crew briefing!

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot:

Delta negotiated with Delta management Delta scope that permitted flying performed by NWA, which will be operated under Delta Air Lines. I understand that part of it but you are leaving out the parts that are whats causing alot of the issues. I think your side intended to send a message by going on vacation....

Still, LOA 19 takes nothing from you and provides you with whipsaw protection while we try to work together on a joint agreement. It provides NWA no incentive and no furlough protection during a merger all while our company (nwa) helps build a stronger DAL. Meanwhile DAL pilots get protection and pay increases while we reap no rewards. Basically DALALPA got theirs leaving NWA pilots out until we give in to your "offer". Needless to say that doesnt go over well. Wonder why? Would you prefer that Delta management just do the merger and tell us to file a grievance over Section 1?

You want to negotiate with your management? Go right ahead. you know that wont do any good.

You are better off with LOA 19 than without it. What do we NWA pilots get out of LOA 19. If its for us to then why did we have no say in it? We all are. We built a floor, not a ceiling. Waiting on you to come over and help put the rafters on this place.

IMHO we did not exclude you, but remember what I wrote about intransigence = irrelevance. Your MEC did get outmaneuvered, but given the demand for arbitration there had to be some point where the Delta MEC took a defensive position. As things continue I expect that aggresiveness will be met with well planned & effective defenses.

You forgot to mention that it would give DAL pilots add pay and furlough protection in the event that a combined contract and SLI dont get worked out.(i dont think it will get to that point however) If it is was in everyone's best interest than why didnt DALALPA incorporate language in it that also protected NWA pilots in the interim? Your MEC knew by working directly with mgmt and agreeing to a LOA without ANY input from the NWA MEC that it would cause problems yet did it anyway. Even if it was just to set a floor it did cause animosity and an impression of deceit between DALALPA and the NWA pilots which isnt the best way to start off a marriage.

 

[DTW320]

Well unity by any means is a good thing, I suppose. I still haven't figured out why you are mad at the DAL boys. Still, I wonder how "unified" the first 747-400 crew will be when there is a two captain, two FO pairing (which the DAL work rules will provide for, by the way) and one of the captains is a new "green book" who just got the position due to the DAL rules. I would love to hear the chatter in that crew briefing!

Old news. You apparently are not aware that you did not invent the 2 crew concept. That was how NWA operated for years and years right up until our BK contract where we conceded the 2 crew concept and went with the cruise FO concept. Those green/red crew briefings on the 747-400 have happened many many times until recently.

 

[JohnQ]

Old news. You apparently are not aware that you did not invent the 2 crew concept. That was how NWA operated for years and years right up until our BK contract where we conceded the 2 crew concept and went with the cruise FO concept. Those green/red crew briefings on the 747-400 have happened many many times until recently.

I stand corrected. What happened to the "greenbook" guys who were already on the -400? Were they bumped out of the category, or were there enough retirements to absorb the lower captain requirement?

And in any case, I thought the 20 year fence just came down in 2006, and until then there were no "green book" guys on the -400. If you had greenbook captains on the -400, but then conceded the extra capt position in your BK contract, they couldn't have been there for long. What is the real story?

These are actual real questions (for a change!) and not any editorial commentary.

 

[DTW320]

I stand corrected. What happened to the "greenbook" guys who were already on the -400? Were they bumped out of the category, or were there enough retirements to absorb the lower captain requirement?

And in any case, I thought the 20 year fence just came down in 2006, and until then there were no "green book" guys on the -400. If you had greenbook captains on the -400, but then conceded the extra capt position in your BK contract, they couldn't have been there for long. What is the real story?

These are actual real questions (for a change!) and not any editorial commentary.

I don't think there were any displacements. I think it was all done by attrition. If there had been displacements it would not have been green guys. With the Roberts award over, it would have been displacements in reverse seniority order just like anything else. Also, the Roberts award was not a fence. There have been green guys on the -400 for years. During the 20 year period of the Roberts award, vacancies on widebodies were filled with a ratio that favored redbook pilots but did not flatly deny, or "fence" greenbook guys from the positions. And since they got DOH in the merger, when the Roberts ratios allowed a greenbook pilot to go to the 747 they were almost always senior to all the redbook guys on the airplane.

 

[ugasucks]

your new hires go to the dc-9or so 747 ours go to the 76er, enough said

 

[jetflier]

your new hires go to the dc-9or so 747 ours go to the 76er, enough said

Not true,

NWA new hires mostly go to the DC-9. Some S/O positions on the 747-200F in ANK were awarded to new hires, but usually the ANK S/O are ropes.

 

[jetflier]

your new hires go to the dc-9or so 747 ours go to the 76er, enough said

Why do DAL newhires go to the 767er and not the MD80(DC-9) ?

 

[Fly4hire]

Why do DAL newhires go to the 767er and not the MD80(DC-9) ?

Because 76ER is considered undesirable duty due to it only paying a small difference in pay over domestic flying that keeps you within 3 time zones of home. (Probably 0 on probation except for the per diem). Been their done that, have the passport stamps - I like the occasional EU trip, but not as my bread and butter. I'll take NB Captain over WB F/O any day.

If I want to go see EU or Asia I'll go on vacation, not a sleep deprived 24hr lay over.

Of course all the DAL newbies coming from their CRJ or EMB think they are s**t hot international pilots, while those who have been around a while bid domestic which goes senior. I bet many bid back domestic in short order.

THIS is part of the disconnect in determining the WB factor between the two carriers - NWA's International flying is a premium pay difference (on our relative scales) making it a more senior position.

I guarantee you that if the pay scales were within a few dollars the 757 at NWA with domestic, Hawaii, AK, international, and Asia intra-port would be the senior position - sort of like the DAL 76 Intl/domestic.

DALPA's disingenuous attempt to devalue that flying by putting our 330 and 744 in LOA 19 at less than the 777 and 767ER so they can say ours is not premium WB is transparent.

The real question is how to realistically meld and integrate the two different types of WB flying to preserve the truly premium fly for both sides while not devaluing it or other categories simply for the exercise of saying NW brings less to the table.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Hey if I was a NWA guy I would be upset too. I would feel like I am getting the shaft. Fact is that your fingers are pointed the wrong way.
Look no further than your leadership. Of course ours in not without fault, but in this case I fell that LEE and co. have gotten it correct.
I personally did not want to leave our NWA brothers and sisters out in the cold, but after hearing it from the horses mouth I have to echo what Fin states.
Be careful what you wish for....you might just get it.
Having a complicated SLI that changes allows for screw ups and factors in unknown variables. Your group tried that at the first go at this. When we ran the numbers and gave them back you with drew the offer. That should tell you something.