DALLAPA this is fair ?

[~~~^~~~]

Superpilot - OK, fine. Let us ignore opinions and just evaluate known facts. What are your comments on these considerations in light of the history of SLI awards?

• Has an Arbitrator EVER awarded a Dynamic Seniority solution?
• What have Arbitrators written regarding future assumptions?
• What was the basis for the seniority awards in FedEx and US Air?
• Comment on Status Quo.

If you look at history, it is likely that an Arbitrator will award status quo. Status Quo is relative seniority by equipment.

So when that happens, what do you think the NWA pilots are going to do?

What are they going to do in light of the fact that after the merger NWA pilots will be performing permitted flying under DALPA scope? What's the next move after that?

If you like arbitration, yours are bigger than mine.

 

[Noserider76]

Actually they did tell us all about the money Delta MEC gets from management too. All of our MEC money comes from pilots. Thought that was interesting. Also yes they did show us the dynamic list and yes they did show us that it was still abetter deal for the Delta pilots. But they said it was rejected by Moak. We actually saw several proposals. We even saw them 5 to 10 years down the road not on Day 2 like Moak liked to see. How many proposals did they show you? We saw several and saw what they would like like years down the road. I say lets use Dynamic and let the arbitrator decide the ratio. Because Moak will never agree to anything. Dynamic takes care of retirement concerns for both sides and arbitrator will determine if guys not hired yet get infront of me on the list.

Did Moak tell you guys that we were not allowed to even share our opinion on the cantract until Feb?

By the way I think the red/green/blue book is now over. I think we are united against the widgets now.

Your MEC didn't negotiate expense reimbursement and paid trip drops? Whose fault is that? The fact that your guys are out there doing road shows and pointing fingers should raise some serious concerns in your mind. Are they trying to cover their asses or actually move forward and get something accomplished for your benefit? What good does it do to whip up a frenzy with half truths and numbers taken way out of context? The DL MEC remained very upbeat and forward looking at the roadshows even though it was apparent they were amazed at some of what they encountered. Does it tell you anything when one of your committee is replaced in the middle of negotiations? There was no doubt in my mind the DL guys wanted, and still want, as fair as possible an outcome for the entire combined group. Your guys?

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot - OK, fine. Let us ignore opinions and just evaluate known facts. What are your comments on these considerations in light of the history of SLI awards?

• Has an Arbitrator EVER awarded a Dynamic Seniority solution?
• What have Arbitrators written regarding future assumptions?
• What was the basis for the seniority awards in FedEx and US Air?
• Comment on Status Quo.

If you look at history, it is likely that an Arbitrator will award status quo. Status Quo is relative seniority by equipment.

So when that happens, what do you think the NWA pilots are going to do? Going to be Counsel 2 in the USAPA? Where will that be in 15 years? Hopefully not performing permitted flying as negotiated by Delta pilots' scope.

Although I write that in jest, there is some truth to the path your MEC has chosen by going to arbitration. You are not going to like he most likely answer = status quo... What then?

I will be the first to tell you i dont know what WILL happen. I take the info i get from both sides and try to follow where things are at or where they are going. What i do know is you DAL guys say your MEC wants a "fair" deal yet my mec tells us Moak wanted credit for phantom pilots and options while saying we could couldnt have credit for our options. Also it wasnt taken into consideration that DAL staffs with more pilots per aircraft then NWA does. Why dont we nwa guys get to use the same staffing model you DAL guys do when negotiating the SLI. Would that be fair?

Relative seniority by equipment isnt fair either because Alot of people dont bid for the "big" airplanes or money yet they are senior enough to hold it. I can hold the airbus but i dont bid it because right now i dont want it even though it pays more. For instance the junior DAL position being the 767, if that was so good why does it go junior? JFK would be my guess.

I think we can both agree, "fair" all depends on who you ask. I sincerely hope this gets figured out asap and BOTH sides figure out a way to be "FAIR"

 

[Noserider76]

What i do know is you DAL guys say your MEC wants a "fair" deal yet my mec tells us Moak wanted credit for phantom pilots and options while saying we could couldnt have credit for our options. Also it wasnt taken into consideration that DAL staffs with more pilots per aircraft then NWA does. Why dont we nwa guys get to use the same staffing model you DAL guys do when negotiating the SLI. Would that be fair?

Why would you get credit for the staffing DL negotiated in our contract?

Relative seniority by equipment isnt fair either because Alot of people dont bid for the "big" airplanes or money yet they are senior enough to hold it. I can hold the airbus but i dont bid it because right now i dont want it even though it pays more. For instance the junior DAL position being the 767, if that was so good why does it go junior? JFK would be my guess.

It puts everyone in the highest paying position they could hold if everyone above them was in their highest paying position. ie., the new hire DL 767 guy is still below the senior guy that bid -88 for quality of life.

I think we can both agree, "fair" all depends on who you ask. I sincerely hope this gets figured out asap and BOTH sides figure out a way to be "FAIR"

The last part is what makes this so difficult and highly likely to go to arbitration. To paraphrase Moak at one of our roadshows, "guys would cut each others throats over a hundred numbers. The number 1 guy will be a NW guy and the number 2 guy will be a DL guy and that DL guy will hate me for the rest of his life."

 

[jetflier]

What makes a NWA/DAL combination attractive is the ability to redeploy NWA's large jets where there are hubs which are better able to support them. Delta wants to grow using its' Pacific route authority, but it lacks the airplanes and pilots to achieve the mission in the near term. Getting NWA's aircraft allows them to gain an advantage on competition by being a "first mover."

I have to disagree with your fantasy.

NWA is very able to support the "big" jets in our hubs, they don't need to be redeployed to your hubs... why NWA makes more revenue per dollar than DAL in our existing hubs. ...and we've been doing it for over 80 years. We've been operating in Asia since WWII. (we felt bad after the war and helped Japan create JAL)

It's sad that a such a great mega carrier like DAL could not create it's own Pacific operation.

 

[Superpilot92]

Why would you get credit for the staffing DL negotiated in our contract?"

Because the SLI is unfair because of an over inflated DAL pilot list. Thats like saying why should you get credit for our retirements? Comparing payscales and contracts in regards to SLI is pointless because the contracts were both negotiated on different terms. SLI should be based on seniority not contractual BS. Ones seniority should either represent seniority now or future seniority, preferably a mixture of the two. Seniority is the only thing in this industry that stays constant for the most part. Pay and contractual stuff can and will be yanked by mgmt any and every chance they can get.

 

[Noserider76]

Because the SLI is unfair because of an over inflated DAL pilot list. Thats like saying why should you get credit for our retirements? Comparing payscales and contracts in regards to SLI is pointless because the contracts were both negotiated on different terms. SLI should be based on seniority not contractual BS. Ones seniority should either represent seniority now or future seniority, preferably a mixture of the two. Seniority is the only thing in this industry that stays constant for the most part. Pay and contractual stuff can and will be yanked by mgmt any and every chance they can get.

These items like staffing formula and options etc was an attempt to avoid a total windfall to NW and still accomodate their request for a dynamic relative position list.

 

[Superpilot92]

These items like staffing formula and options etc was an attempt to avoid a total windfall to NW and still accommodate their request for a dynamic relative position list.

What about the DAL "offer" of NWA pilots get credit for 18 787 orders but not the 50 options yet DAL gets credit for all options and orders and 1000 phantom pilots not even hired yet? Is that "fair"?

In order to get this done there has to be reasonable expectations by BOTH groups. Your MEC and my MEC need to come down to reality and figure this out. Unreasonableness wont be excepted by either group we all know that. In order for the new Delta to capitalize on this merger we need to get this done ASAP.

 

[slapstick]

i heard from a rep today that progress is being made. Sounds like the two sides are working together. of course, they probably haven't even begun the SLI part...

 

[Who Dey]

I was told by a P2P that Prater talked to both MEC Chairs and they came up with a timeline. June 1st a joint contract must be done and 1 week later the SLI is to be done and if not it will go to the third party fun. I don't know what happens if they don't make the June 1 deadline but I heard Uncle BOB was in the NWA crew room. With a joint contract done first niether side will be able to pull a Usair and avoid the SLI.

 

[Superpilot92]

i heard from a rep today that progress is being made. Sounds like the two sides are working together. of course, they probably haven't even begun the SLI part...

:beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

I was told by a P2P that Prater talked to both MEC Chairs and they came up with a timeline. June 1st a joint contract must be done and 1 week later the SLI is to be done and if not it will go to the third party fun. I don't know what happens if they don't make the June 1 deadline but I heard Uncle BOB was in the NWA crew room. With a joint contract done first niether side will be able to pull a Usair and avoid the SLI.

After the influx of emails to Prater from NWA and other ALPA pilots he probably said he wouldn't sign off on LOA 19 since both groups werent included and to get a joint agreement figured out ASAP

lets hope this gets done by the timeline.

 

[Schwanker]

I was told by a P2P that Prater talked to both MEC Chairs and they came up with a timeline. June 1st a joint contract must be done and 1 week later the SLI is to be done and if not it will go to the third party fun. I don't know what happens if they don't make the June 1 deadline but I heard Uncle BOB was in the NWA crew room. With a joint contract done first niether side will be able to pull a Usair and avoid the SLI.

Uncle BOB could be quite ill, even worse than last summer. From what I've been told, he can't fart with confidence. Now that's scary!

Schwanker

 

[f15boomer]

After the influx of emails to Prater from NWA and other ALPA pilots he probably said he wouldn't sign off on LOA 19 since both groups werent included and to get a joint agreement figured out ASAP

lets hope this gets done by the timeline.

This is so much fun watching the DALALPA F... over the NWALPA boys.

Now you will findout why we now have USAPA as our new UNION.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Never mind...