DALLAPA this is fair ?

[737 Pylt]

NWA and DAL HAD AN AGREEMENT--

DAL wanted "credit" for 1000 people NOT ON THE PROPERTY,
putting OUR 1000 guys at the bottom!

"Yaall godda be kiddin', ..."

Geeeee..........didn't Lee & Co. promised to agree on an arbitrated settlement. Now that the deal is going forward, it kinda looks like they........uh, well...............LIED.

DLAPA Lie ?


Naaaahhhhhhhh.

I'm not sure what's funnier, eagledoosh claiming to know facts from of all places, ehem, FI.......or the fact that he spent 20 years at eagle!:laugh:

Eaglefly, your village called, they've been looking all over for you!:laugh:

737

 

[9DRIVER]

NWA wants credit for "options" on airplanes that never be excercised.

Your opinion?


They seem to forget that they would probably get raises totalling 25-30% (their current scales to our current scale plus our LOA 19 scale which gives DAL bubbas raises of 17% by 2012).

You can't buy seniority.

They also forget that NWA management is planning to park their entire DC-9 fleet and 747-200 fleet. Delta will only park the older DC-9s for the time being.

Do you know something we don't? Pure speculation on your part. Anderson and Steenland made it clear in their Merger webcast that the 9's would remain for the forseeable future as there is a need in the 100 seat market. You need to give up the DC9 arguement.


Whine all you want but w/o DAL, you'll ber working for much less and furlough a bunch of pilots when the 9s and -200 go to Arizona.

Not whining here. We are negotiating to create an equitable solution for all DAL and NWA pilots. Mr Moaks take it or leave it stance is a non starter.

 

[Who Dey]

Where is it stated that NWA was parking those planes? I have never seen or heard that. I heard we were getting rid of some of them until the replacement comes around 2013.

Our MEC and P2p guys told me that those phantom pilots are future new hires. So someone not even hired yet will be placed ahead of me. Yeah great idea.

The NWA roadshows were great I wish Delta pilots could see what we saw. It make Moak look like a ... well I can't use that word on here. Also we were told Delta MEC never looked at what the seniority list will look like in 10 or 15 years from now. The final take it or leave it offer had 0 NWA pilots getting an early CA because of the merger while over 3100 Delta pilots would make CA early because of the merger. Another great idea.

Maybe there needs to be some other people on the Delta side besides Moak trying to work this thing out. Just my 2 cents.

 

[JohnQ]

The NWA roadshows were great I wish Delta pilots could see what we saw.

Did your leaders at your road shows tell you that your Merger Committee chair openly bragged about the fact that in 26 sets of arbitrations subsequent to the original 1986 NWA/Republic merger, that there had NEVER been an agreement reached?

Did your road shows tell you that your merger committee proposed a dynamic seniority list...that OUR merger committee concluded benefited the DAL guys more even than our own proposal?...(your guys then pulled their OWN proposal)

Did your road shows tell you your merger committee's opener? You should ask that question some time. You might be amazed at the answer (in a bad way).

Did your road shows tell you that while the DAL merger committee was comprised of three members (paid by a $1 million assessment that the DAL pilots wisely paid for two years ago in anticipation of just such a scenario as now) yours was three members, two alternates, and ten "observers" who just...sat there...observing...and getting back to their red/green book camps?

I think you haven't heard the entire story.

Nevertheless, believe what you wish. Ultimately this will all be forgotten, and we will all be working and making lots of $$ for one COMBINED kick-tail pilot group and airline.

 

[Noserider76]

The biggest hurdle in coming up with a SLI agreement, in my opinion, will be the fact that NW feels they have more near term retirements and want to take advantage of them. Fair enough. The problem lies in the fact that if they alone are allowed to take advantage of them they will also be the ones to take advantage of:

- the much larger numbers of DL retirements a few years down the road
- the much higher numbers of larger (higher paying aircraft) DL brings to the table
- a much higher percentage of the increased compensation to the combined group

All while exposing DL pilots to a fleet of aircraft that DL retired over 16 years ago, in a period of record fuel prices and a poor economy.

In my mind straight relative seniority disproportionately benefits the NW pilots as they now have access to many more higher paying positions at the expense of the DL pilots who would have held them. The last arbitrated settlement, the infamous Nic, would benefit DL much more as he grouped fleet types into widebody, 757, and narrowbody and based it on a current snapshot of both companies. However, the only way we will come to an agreement is if both sides are willing to compromise and give up some of what they believe they bring to the table. That means sharing future retirements, fleets, and possible furloughs. If one side chooses to make a stand over one issue and ignores the benefits they would receive in other areas, we are looking at no choice but arbitration, tall fences covered with razor wire and KY jelly, and years of the bad karma that will come with them.

 

[Superpilot92]

The problem is that alot of DAL guys feel that everything they are told by their MEC is FACT and everything the NWA MEC is false. It should be understood that BOTH groups have room for improvement in regards to making this work. Both Groups need to be putting ideas together and present them together that way BOTH sides know Exactly whats going on.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yes, it seems the NWA guys are completely ignoring prior precedent.

Why?

 

[Who Dey]

Actually they did tell us all about the money Delta MEC gets from management too. All of our MEC money comes from pilots. Thought that was interesting. Also yes they did show us the dynamic list and yes they did show us that it was still abetter deal for the Delta pilots. But they said it was rejected by Moak. We actually saw several proposals. We even saw them 5 to 10 years down the road not on Day 2 like Moak liked to see. How many proposals did they show you? We saw several and saw what they would like like years down the road. I say lets use Dynamic and let the arbitrator decide the ratio. Because Moak will never agree to anything. Dynamic takes care of retirement concerns for both sides and arbitrator will determine if guys not hired yet get infront of me on the list.

Did Moak tell you guys that we were not allowed to even share our opinion on the cantract until Feb?

By the way I think the red/green/blue book is now over. I think we are united against the widgets now.

 

[Freight Dog]

Is it any wonder this profession has gone to absolute sh*t? This entire profession needs some serious awakening... Obviously 9/11 and most recent fuel crunch haven't been loud enough.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Everything the Delta pilots are told by their MEC is FACT and everything the NWA MEC is false.

Exactly :beer:

The NWA MEC doesn't lie about everything. There are enough facts in there to make the creative exercise credible. I'm surprised the NWA pilots are not ready to hang them by the highest tree in town after letting relative seniority, equity, and raises get away... and amigo to amigo, I'm entirely sincere about that.

I just do not know how we line pilots who want to work together accomplish our mutual goal with leadership that gets its power by making the other side out to be the bogeyman.

 

[Superpilot92]

Exactly :beer:

The NWA MEC doesn't lie about anything. There are enough facts in there to make the creative exercise credible. I'm surprised we DAL pilots are not ready to hang our MEC by the highest tree in town after stepping on the NWA pilots back... and amigo to amigo, I'm entirely sincere about that.

I just do not know how we line pilots who want to work together accomplish our mutual goal with leadership that gets its power by making the other side out to be the bogeyman.

Exactly :beer: Well said

Change my post did ya, Stop trying to be a bogeyman Fins

 

[~~~^~~~]

We even saw them 5 to 10 years down the road not on Day 2 like Moak liked to see. How many proposals did they show you? We saw several and saw what they would like like years down the road. I say lets use Dynamic and let the arbitrator decide the ratio.

Has any arbitrator EVER awarded a DYNAMIC RATIO in the history of all human existence? It has never happened before and is not likely to happen now.

Nobody knows where DAL, or NWA, would be 15 years from now if they were not merged. There are more Delta retirements which start three years after the NWA retirements. A dynamic list would put a preferred group of pilots at the top, then allow them to benefit from the other side's retirements too. There is no way that is fair.

My fair plan, which I posted here, would have preserved NWA's retirement stovepipe. However, in separate communications NWA and management both indicated they not want the resulting fences due to reallocation of aircraft and opportunities. NWA does not want to be fenced off Delta equipment, they just want their "premium international flying" protected.

Why does anyone think an arbitrator would award a unique preferential dynamic seniority system that disadvantaged the other side? It is the very essence of the kind of windfall they try to avoid.

As we say here - That Dog won't hunt. What I do not understand is how any rational pilot thinks that an arbitrator would consider such a thing.

~~~^~~~, former Arbitration Panelist who has heard in excess of 400 ADR cases....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Exactly :beer: Well said

yo be da' man Fins

Oh, such praise, stop, you're embarrassing me :blush:

 

[Superpilot92]

Has any arbitrator EVER awarded a DYNAMIC RATIO in the history of all human existence? It has never happened before and is not likely to happen now.

Nobody knows where DAL, or NWA, would be 15 years from now if they were not merged. There are more Delta retirements which start three years after the NWA retirements. A dynamic list would put a preferred group of pilots at the top, then allow them to benefit from the other side's retirements too. There is no way that is fair.

My fair plan, which I posted here, would have preserved NWA's retirement stovepipe. However, in separate communications NWA and management both indicated they not want the resulting fences due to reallocation of aircraft and opportunities. NWA does not want to be fenced off Delta equipment, they just want their "premium international flying" protected.

Why does anyone think an arbitrator would award a unique preferential dynamic seniority system that disadvantaged the other side? It is the very essence of the kind of windfall they try to avoid.

As we say here - That Dog won't hunt. What I do not understand is how any rational pilot thinks that an arbitrator would consider such a thing.

~~~^~~~, former Arbitration Panelist who has heard in excess of 400 ADR cases....

By pretending 10 years down the road doesn't count you are taking advantage of the issue. You know good and well 10-15 years ahead is just as important as tomorrow. however since it benefits the nwa pilots to think in those terms you try and discredit it. yeah thats fair

 

[Superpilot92]

Hey SP Lee Moak and I have been dating on and off for a year now, he would never lie to me :blush:

Sorry fins, i didnt realize you had such a credible source! LMAO

 

[~~~^~~~]

Superpilot - OK, fine. Let us ignore opinions and just evaluate known facts. What are your comments on these considerations in light of the history of SLI awards?

• Has an Arbitrator EVER awarded a Dynamic Seniority solution?
• What have Arbitrators written regarding future assumptions?
• What was the basis for the seniority awards in FedEx and US Air?
• Comment on Status Quo.

If you look at history, it is likely that an Arbitrator will award status quo. Status Quo is relative seniority by equipment.

So when that happens, what do you think the NWA pilots are going to do?

What are they going to do in light of the fact that after the merger NWA pilots will be performing permitted flying under DALPA scope? What's the next move after that?

If you like arbitration, yours are bigger than mine.

 

[Noserider76]

Actually they did tell us all about the money Delta MEC gets from management too. All of our MEC money comes from pilots. Thought that was interesting. Also yes they did show us the dynamic list and yes they did show us that it was still abetter deal for the Delta pilots. But they said it was rejected by Moak. We actually saw several proposals. We even saw them 5 to 10 years down the road not on Day 2 like Moak liked to see. How many proposals did they show you? We saw several and saw what they would like like years down the road. I say lets use Dynamic and let the arbitrator decide the ratio. Because Moak will never agree to anything. Dynamic takes care of retirement concerns for both sides and arbitrator will determine if guys not hired yet get infront of me on the list.

Did Moak tell you guys that we were not allowed to even share our opinion on the cantract until Feb?

By the way I think the red/green/blue book is now over. I think we are united against the widgets now.

Your MEC didn't negotiate expense reimbursement and paid trip drops? Whose fault is that? The fact that your guys are out there doing road shows and pointing fingers should raise some serious concerns in your mind. Are they trying to cover their asses or actually move forward and get something accomplished for your benefit? What good does it do to whip up a frenzy with half truths and numbers taken way out of context? The DL MEC remained very upbeat and forward looking at the roadshows even though it was apparent they were amazed at some of what they encountered. Does it tell you anything when one of your committee is replaced in the middle of negotiations? There was no doubt in my mind the DL guys wanted, and still want, as fair as possible an outcome for the entire combined group. Your guys?

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot - OK, fine. Let us ignore opinions and just evaluate known facts. What are your comments on these considerations in light of the history of SLI awards?

• Has an Arbitrator EVER awarded a Dynamic Seniority solution?
• What have Arbitrators written regarding future assumptions?
• What was the basis for the seniority awards in FedEx and US Air?
• Comment on Status Quo.

If you look at history, it is likely that an Arbitrator will award status quo. Status Quo is relative seniority by equipment.

So when that happens, what do you think the NWA pilots are going to do? Going to be Counsel 2 in the USAPA? Where will that be in 15 years? Hopefully not performing permitted flying as negotiated by Delta pilots' scope.

Although I write that in jest, there is some truth to the path your MEC has chosen by going to arbitration. You are not going to like he most likely answer = status quo... What then?

I will be the first to tell you i dont know what WILL happen. I take the info i get from both sides and try to follow where things are at or where they are going. What i do know is you DAL guys say your MEC wants a "fair" deal yet my mec tells us Moak wanted credit for phantom pilots and options while saying we could couldnt have credit for our options. Also it wasnt taken into consideration that DAL staffs with more pilots per aircraft then NWA does. Why dont we nwa guys get to use the same staffing model you DAL guys do when negotiating the SLI. Would that be fair?

Relative seniority by equipment isnt fair either because Alot of people dont bid for the "big" airplanes or money yet they are senior enough to hold it. I can hold the airbus but i dont bid it because right now i dont want it even though it pays more. For instance the junior DAL position being the 767, if that was so good why does it go junior? JFK would be my guess.

I think we can both agree, "fair" all depends on who you ask. I sincerely hope this gets figured out asap and BOTH sides figure out a way to be "FAIR"

 

[Noserider76]

What i do know is you DAL guys say your MEC wants a "fair" deal yet my mec tells us Moak wanted credit for phantom pilots and options while saying we could couldnt have credit for our options. Also it wasnt taken into consideration that DAL staffs with more pilots per aircraft then NWA does. Why dont we nwa guys get to use the same staffing model you DAL guys do when negotiating the SLI. Would that be fair?

Why would you get credit for the staffing DL negotiated in our contract?

Relative seniority by equipment isnt fair either because Alot of people dont bid for the "big" airplanes or money yet they are senior enough to hold it. I can hold the airbus but i dont bid it because right now i dont want it even though it pays more. For instance the junior DAL position being the 767, if that was so good why does it go junior? JFK would be my guess.

It puts everyone in the highest paying position they could hold if everyone above them was in their highest paying position. ie., the new hire DL 767 guy is still below the senior guy that bid -88 for quality of life.

I think we can both agree, "fair" all depends on who you ask. I sincerely hope this gets figured out asap and BOTH sides figure out a way to be "FAIR"

The last part is what makes this so difficult and highly likely to go to arbitration. To paraphrase Moak at one of our roadshows, "guys would cut each others throats over a hundred numbers. The number 1 guy will be a NW guy and the number 2 guy will be a DL guy and that DL guy will hate me for the rest of his life."

 

[jetflier]

What makes a NWA/DAL combination attractive is the ability to redeploy NWA's large jets where there are hubs which are better able to support them. Delta wants to grow using its' Pacific route authority, but it lacks the airplanes and pilots to achieve the mission in the near term. Getting NWA's aircraft allows them to gain an advantage on competition by being a "first mover."

I have to disagree with your fantasy.

NWA is very able to support the "big" jets in our hubs, they don't need to be redeployed to your hubs... why NWA makes more revenue per dollar than DAL in our existing hubs. ...and we've been doing it for over 80 years. We've been operating in Asia since WWII. (we felt bad after the war and helped Japan create JAL)

It's sad that a such a great mega carrier like DAL could not create it's own Pacific operation.

 

[Superpilot92]

Why would you get credit for the staffing DL negotiated in our contract?"

Because the SLI is unfair because of an over inflated DAL pilot list. Thats like saying why should you get credit for our retirements? Comparing payscales and contracts in regards to SLI is pointless because the contracts were both negotiated on different terms. SLI should be based on seniority not contractual BS. Ones seniority should either represent seniority now or future seniority, preferably a mixture of the two. Seniority is the only thing in this industry that stays constant for the most part. Pay and contractual stuff can and will be yanked by mgmt any and every chance they can get.

 

[Noserider76]

Because the SLI is unfair because of an over inflated DAL pilot list. Thats like saying why should you get credit for our retirements? Comparing payscales and contracts in regards to SLI is pointless because the contracts were both negotiated on different terms. SLI should be based on seniority not contractual BS. Ones seniority should either represent seniority now or future seniority, preferably a mixture of the two. Seniority is the only thing in this industry that stays constant for the most part. Pay and contractual stuff can and will be yanked by mgmt any and every chance they can get.

These items like staffing formula and options etc was an attempt to avoid a total windfall to NW and still accomodate their request for a dynamic relative position list.

 

[Superpilot92]

These items like staffing formula and options etc was an attempt to avoid a total windfall to NW and still accommodate their request for a dynamic relative position list.

What about the DAL "offer" of NWA pilots get credit for 18 787 orders but not the 50 options yet DAL gets credit for all options and orders and 1000 phantom pilots not even hired yet? Is that "fair"?

In order to get this done there has to be reasonable expectations by BOTH groups. Your MEC and my MEC need to come down to reality and figure this out. Unreasonableness wont be excepted by either group we all know that. In order for the new Delta to capitalize on this merger we need to get this done ASAP.

 

[slapstick]

i heard from a rep today that progress is being made. Sounds like the two sides are working together. of course, they probably haven't even begun the SLI part...

 

[Who Dey]

I was told by a P2P that Prater talked to both MEC Chairs and they came up with a timeline. June 1st a joint contract must be done and 1 week later the SLI is to be done and if not it will go to the third party fun. I don't know what happens if they don't make the June 1 deadline but I heard Uncle BOB was in the NWA crew room. With a joint contract done first niether side will be able to pull a Usair and avoid the SLI.

 

[Superpilot92]

i heard from a rep today that progress is being made. Sounds like the two sides are working together. of course, they probably haven't even begun the SLI part...

:beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

I was told by a P2P that Prater talked to both MEC Chairs and they came up with a timeline. June 1st a joint contract must be done and 1 week later the SLI is to be done and if not it will go to the third party fun. I don't know what happens if they don't make the June 1 deadline but I heard Uncle BOB was in the NWA crew room. With a joint contract done first niether side will be able to pull a Usair and avoid the SLI.

After the influx of emails to Prater from NWA and other ALPA pilots he probably said he wouldn't sign off on LOA 19 since both groups werent included and to get a joint agreement figured out ASAP

lets hope this gets done by the timeline.

 

[Schwanker]

I was told by a P2P that Prater talked to both MEC Chairs and they came up with a timeline. June 1st a joint contract must be done and 1 week later the SLI is to be done and if not it will go to the third party fun. I don't know what happens if they don't make the June 1 deadline but I heard Uncle BOB was in the NWA crew room. With a joint contract done first niether side will be able to pull a Usair and avoid the SLI.

Uncle BOB could be quite ill, even worse than last summer. From what I've been told, he can't fart with confidence. Now that's scary!

Schwanker

 

[f15boomer]

After the influx of emails to Prater from NWA and other ALPA pilots he probably said he wouldn't sign off on LOA 19 since both groups werent included and to get a joint agreement figured out ASAP

lets hope this gets done by the timeline.

This is so much fun watching the DALALPA F... over the NWALPA boys.

Now you will findout why we now have USAPA as our new UNION.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Never mind...