DALLAPA this is fair ?

[737 Pylt]

NWA and DAL HAD AN AGREEMENT--

DAL wanted "credit" for 1000 people NOT ON THE PROPERTY,
putting OUR 1000 guys at the bottom!

"Yaall godda be kiddin', ..."

Geeeee..........didn't Lee & Co. promised to agree on an arbitrated settlement. Now that the deal is going forward, it kinda looks like they........uh, well...............LIED.

DLAPA Lie ?


Naaaahhhhhhhh.

I'm not sure what's funnier, eagledoosh claiming to know facts from of all places, ehem, FI.......or the fact that he spent 20 years at eagle!:laugh:

Eaglefly, your village called, they've been looking all over for you!:laugh:

737

 

[9DRIVER]

NWA wants credit for "options" on airplanes that never be excercised.

Your opinion?


They seem to forget that they would probably get raises totalling 25-30% (their current scales to our current scale plus our LOA 19 scale which gives DAL bubbas raises of 17% by 2012).

You can't buy seniority.

They also forget that NWA management is planning to park their entire DC-9 fleet and 747-200 fleet. Delta will only park the older DC-9s for the time being.

Do you know something we don't? Pure speculation on your part. Anderson and Steenland made it clear in their Merger webcast that the 9's would remain for the forseeable future as there is a need in the 100 seat market. You need to give up the DC9 arguement.


Whine all you want but w/o DAL, you'll ber working for much less and furlough a bunch of pilots when the 9s and -200 go to Arizona.

Not whining here. We are negotiating to create an equitable solution for all DAL and NWA pilots. Mr Moaks take it or leave it stance is a non starter.

 

[Who Dey]

Where is it stated that NWA was parking those planes? I have never seen or heard that. I heard we were getting rid of some of them until the replacement comes around 2013.

Our MEC and P2p guys told me that those phantom pilots are future new hires. So someone not even hired yet will be placed ahead of me. Yeah great idea.

The NWA roadshows were great I wish Delta pilots could see what we saw. It make Moak look like a ... well I can't use that word on here. Also we were told Delta MEC never looked at what the seniority list will look like in 10 or 15 years from now. The final take it or leave it offer had 0 NWA pilots getting an early CA because of the merger while over 3100 Delta pilots would make CA early because of the merger. Another great idea.

Maybe there needs to be some other people on the Delta side besides Moak trying to work this thing out. Just my 2 cents.

 

[JohnQ]

The NWA roadshows were great I wish Delta pilots could see what we saw.

Did your leaders at your road shows tell you that your Merger Committee chair openly bragged about the fact that in 26 sets of arbitrations subsequent to the original 1986 NWA/Republic merger, that there had NEVER been an agreement reached?

Did your road shows tell you that your merger committee proposed a dynamic seniority list...that OUR merger committee concluded benefited the DAL guys more even than our own proposal?...(your guys then pulled their OWN proposal)

Did your road shows tell you your merger committee's opener? You should ask that question some time. You might be amazed at the answer (in a bad way).

Did your road shows tell you that while the DAL merger committee was comprised of three members (paid by a $1 million assessment that the DAL pilots wisely paid for two years ago in anticipation of just such a scenario as now) yours was three members, two alternates, and ten "observers" who just...sat there...observing...and getting back to their red/green book camps?

I think you haven't heard the entire story.

Nevertheless, believe what you wish. Ultimately this will all be forgotten, and we will all be working and making lots of $$ for one COMBINED kick-tail pilot group and airline.

 

[Noserider76]

The biggest hurdle in coming up with a SLI agreement, in my opinion, will be the fact that NW feels they have more near term retirements and want to take advantage of them. Fair enough. The problem lies in the fact that if they alone are allowed to take advantage of them they will also be the ones to take advantage of:

- the much larger numbers of DL retirements a few years down the road
- the much higher numbers of larger (higher paying aircraft) DL brings to the table
- a much higher percentage of the increased compensation to the combined group

All while exposing DL pilots to a fleet of aircraft that DL retired over 16 years ago, in a period of record fuel prices and a poor economy.

In my mind straight relative seniority disproportionately benefits the NW pilots as they now have access to many more higher paying positions at the expense of the DL pilots who would have held them. The last arbitrated settlement, the infamous Nic, would benefit DL much more as he grouped fleet types into widebody, 757, and narrowbody and based it on a current snapshot of both companies. However, the only way we will come to an agreement is if both sides are willing to compromise and give up some of what they believe they bring to the table. That means sharing future retirements, fleets, and possible furloughs. If one side chooses to make a stand over one issue and ignores the benefits they would receive in other areas, we are looking at no choice but arbitration, tall fences covered with razor wire and KY jelly, and years of the bad karma that will come with them.

 

[Superpilot92]

The problem is that alot of DAL guys feel that everything they are told by their MEC is FACT and everything the NWA MEC is false. It should be understood that BOTH groups have room for improvement in regards to making this work. Both Groups need to be putting ideas together and present them together that way BOTH sides know Exactly whats going on.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Yes, it seems the NWA guys are completely ignoring prior precedent.

Why?

 

[Who Dey]

Actually they did tell us all about the money Delta MEC gets from management too. All of our MEC money comes from pilots. Thought that was interesting. Also yes they did show us the dynamic list and yes they did show us that it was still abetter deal for the Delta pilots. But they said it was rejected by Moak. We actually saw several proposals. We even saw them 5 to 10 years down the road not on Day 2 like Moak liked to see. How many proposals did they show you? We saw several and saw what they would like like years down the road. I say lets use Dynamic and let the arbitrator decide the ratio. Because Moak will never agree to anything. Dynamic takes care of retirement concerns for both sides and arbitrator will determine if guys not hired yet get infront of me on the list.

Did Moak tell you guys that we were not allowed to even share our opinion on the cantract until Feb?

By the way I think the red/green/blue book is now over. I think we are united against the widgets now.

 

[Freight Dog]

Is it any wonder this profession has gone to absolute sh*t? This entire profession needs some serious awakening... Obviously 9/11 and most recent fuel crunch haven't been loud enough.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Everything the Delta pilots are told by their MEC is FACT and everything the NWA MEC is false.

Exactly :beer:

The NWA MEC doesn't lie about everything. There are enough facts in there to make the creative exercise credible. I'm surprised the NWA pilots are not ready to hang them by the highest tree in town after letting relative seniority, equity, and raises get away... and amigo to amigo, I'm entirely sincere about that.

I just do not know how we line pilots who want to work together accomplish our mutual goal with leadership that gets its power by making the other side out to be the bogeyman.

 

[Superpilot92]

Exactly :beer:

The NWA MEC doesn't lie about anything. There are enough facts in there to make the creative exercise credible. I'm surprised we DAL pilots are not ready to hang our MEC by the highest tree in town after stepping on the NWA pilots back... and amigo to amigo, I'm entirely sincere about that.

I just do not know how we line pilots who want to work together accomplish our mutual goal with leadership that gets its power by making the other side out to be the bogeyman.

Exactly :beer: Well said

Change my post did ya, Stop trying to be a bogeyman Fins

 

[~~~^~~~]

We even saw them 5 to 10 years down the road not on Day 2 like Moak liked to see. How many proposals did they show you? We saw several and saw what they would like like years down the road. I say lets use Dynamic and let the arbitrator decide the ratio.

Has any arbitrator EVER awarded a DYNAMIC RATIO in the history of all human existence? It has never happened before and is not likely to happen now.

Nobody knows where DAL, or NWA, would be 15 years from now if they were not merged. There are more Delta retirements which start three years after the NWA retirements. A dynamic list would put a preferred group of pilots at the top, then allow them to benefit from the other side's retirements too. There is no way that is fair.

My fair plan, which I posted here, would have preserved NWA's retirement stovepipe. However, in separate communications NWA and management both indicated they not want the resulting fences due to reallocation of aircraft and opportunities. NWA does not want to be fenced off Delta equipment, they just want their "premium international flying" protected.

Why does anyone think an arbitrator would award a unique preferential dynamic seniority system that disadvantaged the other side? It is the very essence of the kind of windfall they try to avoid.

As we say here - That Dog won't hunt. What I do not understand is how any rational pilot thinks that an arbitrator would consider such a thing.

~~~^~~~, former Arbitration Panelist who has heard in excess of 400 ADR cases....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Exactly :beer: Well said

yo be da' man Fins

Oh, such praise, stop, you're embarrassing me :blush:

 

[Superpilot92]

Has any arbitrator EVER awarded a DYNAMIC RATIO in the history of all human existence? It has never happened before and is not likely to happen now.

Nobody knows where DAL, or NWA, would be 15 years from now if they were not merged. There are more Delta retirements which start three years after the NWA retirements. A dynamic list would put a preferred group of pilots at the top, then allow them to benefit from the other side's retirements too. There is no way that is fair.

My fair plan, which I posted here, would have preserved NWA's retirement stovepipe. However, in separate communications NWA and management both indicated they not want the resulting fences due to reallocation of aircraft and opportunities. NWA does not want to be fenced off Delta equipment, they just want their "premium international flying" protected.

Why does anyone think an arbitrator would award a unique preferential dynamic seniority system that disadvantaged the other side? It is the very essence of the kind of windfall they try to avoid.

As we say here - That Dog won't hunt. What I do not understand is how any rational pilot thinks that an arbitrator would consider such a thing.

~~~^~~~, former Arbitration Panelist who has heard in excess of 400 ADR cases....

By pretending 10 years down the road doesn't count you are taking advantage of the issue. You know good and well 10-15 years ahead is just as important as tomorrow. however since it benefits the nwa pilots to think in those terms you try and discredit it. yeah thats fair

 

[Superpilot92]

Hey SP Lee Moak and I have been dating on and off for a year now, he would never lie to me :blush:

Sorry fins, i didnt realize you had such a credible source! LMAO