DALLAPA this is fair ?

[jetflier]

OK, I've thought I've seen it all, but DAL ALPA is trying to push a Pan Am type of SLI on NWA.



NWA and DAL HAD AN AGREEMENT--

DAL wanted "credit" for 1000 people NOT ON THE PROPERTY,
putting OUR 1000 guys at the bottom!

"Yaall godda be kiddin', ..."



(DAL is pushing a "deal" worth 4 % less than what was

negotiated with NWAALPA ,... taking less pay, and less equity.)

 

[ACL65PILOT]

IF this is true, it is because now they are playing hard ball.
We will now negotiate from a normal position, not the relative seniority position we previously had. This gives it a better chance to end up where we offered.

 

[~~~^~~~]

OK, I've thought I've seen it all, but DAL ALPA is trying to push a Pan Am type of SLI on NWA.

NWA and DAL HAD AN AGREEMENT--

DAL wanted "credit" for 1000 people NOT ON THE PROPERTY, putting OUR 1000 guys at the bottom!

(DAL is pushing a "deal" worth 4 % less than what was negotiated with NWAALPA ,... taking less pay, and less equity.)

Was this in response to NWA demanding "dynamic seniority" credit for 2,500 pilots who have not left the property? Was this the ratio proposed by the NWA team which they did not understand until Delta provided them with an analysis of the NWA position?

Relative seniority had no 1,000 pilot holes in it. You have been misinformed.

There never was an agreement, because the NWA pilots' Reps did not agree. There was an offer, which was refused and subsequently withdrawn.

Now there is not as much on the table. The Delta pilots saw the writing on the wall and accepted less. Still DALPA's "less" is a whole lot more than NWA's negotiating with cursing, rediculous demands and threats achieved.

Are the NWA pilots now having to negotiate with Ford and Harrison?

Remember what I wrote.... Intransigence=Irrelevance

Your side wants arbitration. I do not think arbitration will result in a SLI as good as what the NWA pilots were offered, but nobody really knows. There is little point talking about what might have been, because that train has left the station.

There is still opportunity to work together to achieve a better result, but I've seen nothing from the NWA side indicating they have a desire to do anything but rally the troops for a battle, that:
(1) Results in less, not more
(2) Has a highly uncertain SLI outcome
(2a) Based on prior awards would be something like "relative seniority by equipment," which is more favorable to DAL than DAL's own concessionary offer to get the deal done.
(3) Has the troops aggravated to do nothing more than achieve short term political gain for NWA MEC politicians. At the end of the day the NWA pilots will be Delta pilots and be part of D ALPA. Getting mad just destroys your own team.
(4) More than what was fair was on the table and recieved the response of, "F.U." From what we hear the goal remains "fair" but obviously the viewpoints have changed. They were looking a "fair" from a 360 perspective, now I am sure "fair" for D ALPA will be what is considered "fair" from a Delta pilot's perspective, just like the NWA MEC has been doing all along.

We all need this new airline to make money.

This entire post is JMHO. I've heard nothing about any subsequent negotiations, just scheduling. Seems like both sides have went to their corners.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Help me out here fins? Went to a roadshow and feel better about our guys as I am sure y'all feel the same about yours. However please tell me what they are telling y'all about what y'alls relative seniority concept was? We are being told that if for example someone is 39% on our current list of 5000+ they would be about 50% on the combined list. How is that fair or relative? I am around 58-60% on our current list, would that put me around 69-71% on the combined? If so, that does not seem fair or relative. If y'alls posistion is 58-60% today = 58-60% manana, then maybe I am missing something about what our side is claiming unfair. Please enlighten me. I think both mec chairs Stevens/Moak are extremly arrogant (have to be to want that posistion) and want to look like a hero for their group, because they both still have lots of years left to toil here. And they both know that whoever is the perceived loser in this will be despised by their former constituents for the remainder of their careers, right or wrong. An example would be our previous mec chair, lead negotiator, and several former base reps from the ch 11 days. I am sure it is the same at Dal and other raped companies.

 

[nwaredtail]

Help me out here fins? Went to a roadshow and feel better about our guys as I am sure y'all feel the same about yours. However please tell me what they are telling y'all about what y'alls relative seniority concept was? We are being told that if for example someone is 39% on our current list of 5000+ they would be about 50% on the combined list. How is that fair or relative? I am around 58-60% on our current list, would that put me around 69-71% on the combined? If so, that does not seem fair or relative. If y'alls posistion is 58-60% today = 58-60% manana, then maybe I am missing something about what our side is claiming unfair. Please enlighten me. I think both mec chairs Stevens/Moak are extremly arrogant (have to be to want that posistion) and want to look like a hero for their group, because they both still have lots of years left to toil here. And they both know that whoever is the perceived loser in this will be despised by their former constituents for the remainder of their careers, right or wrong. An example would be our previous mec chair, lead negotiator, and several former base reps from the ch 11 days. I am sure it is the same at Dal and other raped companies.

Don't even get them started, it's futile. 1000 phantom pilots for options, yet NWA gets no credit for options, DAL 757's credited as widebodies, yet NWA's 757's don't count. No negotiations, just Moak's offers, take it or leave it. We shouldn't have expectations, yet DALPA wants to give their guys a boost with our retirements. Has any DAL pilot actually seen the DALPA SLI proposals or have they just heard? We have seen them, thanks for unifying the NWA pilot group.

Basically, they want to prosper at our expense, just look at all of Puffdrivr's arrogant post. The good thing about expedited arbitration is Moak will have to back down from his 2 unrealistic proposals because any rational arbitrator would see what a windfall it would mean for every DAL pilot. So the questions is, how will he spin the new proposals?

I love how they make fun of our "future" retirements, yet in 2008, 82% of available 60 year olds retired. Those pesky facts again.

 

[nwaredtail]

(3) Has the troops aggravated to do nothing more than achieve short term political gain for NWA MEC politicians. At the end of the day the NWA pilots will be Delta pilots and be part of D ALPA. Getting mad just destroys your own team.

Our team? GMAFB, vote LOA 19 down, tell Anderson no deal without the NWA pilots, then we will talk about "Team".

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I also like how they keep insisting the train has left and we better get aboard. Guess what the train is still in the station until we board. Period. Anderson knows the train will leave the station with only 25% of the billion a year in cost savings with out us. I expect he will put pressure on BOTH moak/stevens to bend to capture that other 75% asap. Loa 19 is a prod to try to scare us into a quick deal. They thought they could buy us with a onetime upgrade and a career of coach. Our leadership did not bite, even the senior guys. Now its back to the table for some real negotiations and hammer out a deal. This will be a ass kickin global airline once we get past this because we will be strong in every corner of the world. Read something funny on our alpa webboard the other day though. Dal wanted to offer us $400 for uniform replacement ( our contract states if uniforms are changed the company pays) and that would not cover the whole uniform. Our guys said okeedokie we won't buy the hats. Apparantly the other side did not see any humor in that. Not sure if that was true, but sound funny.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Red Tail, you gotta remember: Pilot unions based east of the Mississippi have a tendency to be somewhat delusional about what constitutes a "fair" integration....

I'm just glad the better half hung up the Air Mail wings.

 

[PuffDriver]

I also like how they keep insisting the train has left and we better get aboard. Guess what the train is still in the station until we board. Period. Anderson knows the train will leave the station with only 25% of the billion a year in cost savings with out us. I expect he will put pressure on BOTH moak/stevens to bend to capture that other 75% asap. Loa 19 is a prod to try to scare us into a quick deal. They thought they could buy us with a onetime upgrade and a career of coach. Our leadership did not bite, even the senior guys. Now its back to the table for some real negotiations and hammer out a deal. This will be a ass kickin global airline once we get past this because we will be strong in every corner of the world. Read something funny on our alpa webboard the other day though. Dal wanted to offer us $400 for uniform replacement ( our contract states if uniforms are changed the company pays) and that would not cover the whole uniform. Our guys said okeedokie we won't buy the hats. Apparantly the other side did not see any humor in that. Not sure if that was true, but sound funny.

Chalk this up as 1 Delta guy who would love to get rid of the hat. I can find you a bunch more as well.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We are being told that if for example someone is 39% on our current list of 5000+ they would be about 50% on the combined list. How is that fair or relative? I am around 58-60% on our current list, would that put me around 69-71% on the combined? If so, that does not seem fair or relative. If y'alls posistion is 58-60% today = 58-60% manana, then maybe I am missing something about what our side is claiming unfair. Please enlighten me.

It was 58% = 58% with a one half of one percent degree of error so at most 58% = 57.5 to 58.5, of course into a bigget fleet with more pay.

My understanding is that this relative seniority was unacceptable because it failed to consider future NWA retirements and the stovepipe effect on NWA career progression. So, the NWA side wanted dynamic seniority where 58% today = 30% in several years. To adjust for the NWA slots they proposed a ratio integration to balance things out with the effect being 58% = ~~% today, but 40% in the future. Of course everything hinges on where the cut marks are for the ratios and that's as far as I know. Other folks know where the ratio lines are, I don't.

I'm not a big believer in future assumptions in this business. People can assume almost anything.

I wish the MECs had put relative seniority out there for a vote. I think it would have been popular.

Maybe it is true that NWA pilots would stagnate before the larger Delta retirements kick in three years later, but the effect of the larger fleet and more pay would seem (to me) to balance things out.

At least this isn't a merge and flush.... It is a lot easier if we are growing and doing well.

 

[Fly4hire]

I also like how they keep insisting the train has left and we better get aboard.

Another standard talking point. The latest is we are costing them money. What's this, a pretext for grabbing more? After seeing the roadshows I think they are costing themselves money with unrealistic proposals that will go nowhere

Anderson knows the train will leave the station with only 25% of the billion a year in cost savings with out us. I expect he will put pressure on BOTH Moak/Stevens to bend to capture that other 75% asap.

I think very quickly you will see both MEC's placed into a very small box of available options to get this deal done so as to capitalize on the synergies. From what I can tell, Moak (and I say Moak vs. the DAL MEC as it appears he is now running the show solo) has a lot further to move to a compromise than the NWA MEC does.

Loa 19 is a prod to try to scare us into a quick deal. They thought they could buy us with a onetime upgrade and a career of coach.

Well it worked on Moak.

Is it true that any dissenting opinions on the DALPA web board have been deleted? You guys need to bone up on your rights of free speech as union members - call National legal to see where the case law already stands on censorship of ALPA web boards. Your rights are being violated if messages are being removed for expressing a dissenting opinion.

Our leadership did not bite, even the senior guys. Now its back to the table for some real negotiations and hammer out a deal.

I am hopeful we can reach an SLI where everyone is a little PO'd. The sooner we reach a fair deal that works for everyone the sooner DAL/NWA start kicking some serious @ss.

 

[Noserider76]

I am hopeful we can reach an SLI where everyone is a little PO'd. The sooner we reach a fair deal that works for everyone the sooner DAL/NWA start kicking some serious @ss.

You guys are picking and choosing info from a road show that makes it sound like we want to put 1000 future hires above the guys on your list already. Come on, give me a break. I'm more convinced than ever the only deal we'll get is through arbitration and we'll see some major conditions and restrictions. Fine by me, I guess. Hopefully we can all move on from there.

 

[whymeworry?]

As an outsider to the whole deal, I think the problem now is Moak. He fraternized with mgmt on a level unbecoming a labor union officer. Then, as a result of said behavior, Lee inked a deal with mgmt that, at least on the surface, appears to throw the NW pilots under the bus. Meanwhile, he and other DAL pilots make the suggestion that NW pilots fall in line as part of the new "team". While it is pretty common knowledge that NW were too aggressive back in Feb, and really screwed up by not making a deal happen, I think the DAL MEC has gone too far in this round.

It seems to me that pretty much everyone feels the NW pilots have little to no leverage. That a national labor union created this predicament is egregious at best. I expect mgmt to play these kinds of tactics. But from a labor leader? IMO, DALPA's intergrity has been compromised and almost any offer from them will be met with suspicion and will be assumed to be in collaboration with mgmt.

What is most tragic about all this is how both pilot groups buy into the whole "super-carrier" dream that mgmt has put out. Just because your mgmt team puts together a glossy website and makes claims of 100% success, doesn't mean it's going to happen. Each one of us can tell story after story of mgmt decisions that just didn't pan out in the end. Past history makes one wonder whether this deal will really be as successful as mgmt claims. One thing is for sure, they will have long cashed out their stock options by the time anyone can make that call.

I'm glad we dodged the merger bullet... for now anyway.

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

NWA wants credit for "options" on airplanes that never be excercised.

They seem to forget that they would probably get raises totalling 25-30% (their current scales to our current scale plus our LOA 19 scale which gives DAL bubbas raises of 17% by 2012).

They also forget that NWA management is planning to park their entire DC-9 fleet and 747-200 fleet. Delta will only park the older DC-9s for the time being.

Whine all you want but w/o DAL, you'll ber working for much less and furlough a bunch of pilots when the 9s and -200 go to Arizona.

 

[PuffDriver]

Another standard talking point. The latest is we are costing them money. What's this, a pretext for grabbing more? After seeing the roadshows I think they are costing themselves money with unrealistic proposals that will go nowhere

Now you finally realize one of the purposes of LOA19. You can now take your time and use all of your available tools. Just don't bitch about us grabbing a dollar while the money jar was open.


I think very quickly you will see both MEC's placed into a very small box of available options to get this deal done so as to capitalize on the synergies. From what I can tell, Moak (and I say Moak vs. the DAL MEC as it appears he is now running the show solo) has a lot further to move to a compromise than the NWA MEC does.


Actually, Moak has the full support of the MEC. The MEC has been more united now than I have ever seen in the past. They have their differences, but hash them out and remain a united frontto be reckoned with.
Well it worked on Moak.

Is it true that any dissenting opinions on the DALPA web board have been deleted? You guys need to bone up on your rights of free speech as union members - call National legal to see where the case law already stands on censorship of ALPA web boards. Your rights are being violated if messages are being removed for expressing a dissenting opinion.

Actually, free speech is often misunderstood. These are ALPA boards. paid for by ALPA and subject to ALPA rules. If a post violates rules, then it is pulled. Dissenting opinions are not pulled unless they violate terms and conditions, assenting opinions are also pulled if they violate terms and conditions. We kind of got burnt by that back during contract 2000 when a group a our pilots were sued by the corporation for trying to organize non-sanctioned concerted union activity during section 6 outside of self-help--a violation of law.

I am hopeful we can reach an SLI where everyone is a little PO'd. The sooner we reach a fair deal that works for everyone the sooner DAL/NWA start kicking some serious @ss.

"Fair deal" is relative. I think relative seniority is fair. I do not think a dynamic list is fair. I do not think that 1000 phantom slots are fair--that IS out of context BTW. The bottom line is that you guys have been stagnated for a while, and that will continue. You don't get advantaged from our early outs--that was pre-merger. You don't get credit for your retirees that happen post-merger. Fairness is in the eye of the beholder--and eventually the arbitrator

 

[Fly4hire]

While it is pretty common knowledge that NW were too aggressive back in Feb, and really screwed up by not making a deal happen, I think the DAL MEC has gone too far in this round.

Common knowledge as propagated by DAL talking points to leverage their position. If you saw their proposals I think you would not so easily buy that urban myth.

It seems to me that pretty much everyone feels the NW pilots have little to no leverage.

Everyone except the NWA MEC and pilots. You sure are buying a lot of that spin without questioning the source and motive.

IMO, DALPA's intergrity has been compromised and almost any offer from them will be met with suspicion and will be assumed to be in collaboration with mgmt.

Concur. We'll have to see some real movement on Moaks part, and it has to be verifiable and sustainable. SLI will NOT be sold off for some transitory contract improvement.

What is most tragic about all this is how both pilot groups buy into the whole "super-carrier" dream that mgmt has put out.

The synergies are real if the labor portion can be resolved in the next few months.

 

[Jet Wash]

OK, I've thought I've seen it all, but DAL ALPA is trying to push a Pan Am type of SLI on NWA.



NWA and DAL HAD AN AGREEMENT--

DAL wanted "credit" for 1000 people NOT ON THE PROPERTY,
putting OUR 1000 guys at the bottom!

"Yaall godda be kiddin', ..."



(DAL is pushing a "deal" worth 4 % less than what was

negotiated with NWAALPA ,... taking less pay, and less equity.)

I think the 1,000 guys you are referring to that aren't on property are the guys that are out on MLOA and furlough bypass. If that is the case, then that seems completely fair.

 

[whyfly]

FACT.....
Delta has roughly 6300 active pilots and roughly a thousand who are on MIl leave,sick leave,personal leave etc making a TOTAL seniority list of approx 7300+.
There is no conspiracy to insert "phantom" pilots on top of Northwest pilots

 

[General Lee]

NWA will have 1000 PHANTOM retirements that WILL all retire at exactly age 60. Yep. They will all go, with smiles on their faces. Let's get that in writing....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

There you go again, thinking someone is courting you and needs to make themselves worthy of you. This is business, not a date. Moak doesn't have to make any movement to win over NWA pilots. DALPA doesn't represent the NWA pilots, NWALPA does. [/COLOR]

DALPA made the DAL pilots relevant prior to the announcement, NWALPA was unable to do the same for the NWA pilots. That doesn't mean NWALPA doesn't have a post announcement strategy for success, it just means they weren't able to execute one prior to the announcement. Perhaps because they thought all timelines were false, I don't know, but eventually time did run out.

Regardless, there is plenty of work to be done by both MECs. The path towards SLI is well defined, we'll get there, the path towards a joint contract is not. It's in everyones interest to start working on the joint contract, the SLI will work itself out over time.

 

[800Dog]

Relative seniority and hats are optional. See how easy this is!!

 

[JAM-BRO]

DALPA made the DAL pilots relevant prior to the announcement, NWALPA was unable to do the same for the NWA pilots. That doesn't mean NWALPA doesn't have a post announcement strategy for success, it just means they weren't able to execute one prior to the announcement. Perhaps because they thought all timelines were false, I don't know, but eventually time did run out.

Regardless, there is plenty of work to be done by both MECs. The path towards SLI is well defined, we'll get there, the path towards a joint contract is not. It's in everyones interest to start working on the joint contract, the SLI will work itself out over time.

What I heard was that we were invited to attend but with the condition that we accept a "Harmonization Period" in which we would come up to DAL payrates in 3 yrs. Oh yeah, we'll take that!!!!!

 

[Gorditas]

NWA will have 1000 PHANTOM retirements that WILL all retire at exactly age 60. Yep. They will all go, with smiles on their faces. Let's get that in writing....


Bye Bye--General Lee

I get tired of hearing this remark. Over 50% of our pilots are 50 or OLDER. Regardless if they leave at 60 or 65, this is a HUGE group from the NWA side that will be leaving en-mass. 10 years or 15 years - it doesn't matter, they will ALL be gone. DAL already had a large group leave to keep a portion of their pension. Those guys got the $ benefit, and the guys who stayed moved up quickly. What percentage of the DAL pilots are 50 or older? Please answer with the number, maybe I'm mistaken on how many are around. I'm sure that if we could have fast-forwarded 15 years we would have new hires on the 757, 747FO, and A-330 just like DAL has been hiring into comparable equipment.

I would be happy to get an instant pay raise. However, the possibly short term pay raise pales in comparison to the seniority bump and associated position/pay bumps that brought me here in the first place. It might surprise some DAL pilots, but some of us that already live in Da' ATL don't want to live there permanently. I don't expect a big windfall from the merger, and I don't believe that most of the NWA pilots do either. But on the other hand, I don't want Lee Moak urinating on me and getting code-a-phone message telling me that it is raining. In no later than 15 years I was on pace to be at 50% on the list because of mandatory retirements - that was a huge factor in coming to NWA. I may be new, but I wasn't born yesterday. I don't expect to be in the exact same position with the combined carrier. But to end up at say 75% or lower at the same point in the future because I was put behind guys from DAL that had nowhere near the same seniority expectations - just because their double-breasted feces doesn't stink - doesn't sit well. Maybe that is not the really the case, but it sure seems like that is what is expected of us.

I hope that all of the negative rhetoric can end soon and we can come to an agreement that will result in a long and successful career for all involved. The truth of what has happened up until now probably lies between what both pilot groups are being told. Maybe we should apply some of that good old CRM - "It's not who is right, it's what is right."

 

[FDJ2]

What I heard was that we were invited to attend but with the condition that we accept a "Harmonization Period" in which we would come up to DAL payrates in 3 yrs. Oh yeah, we'll take that!!!!!

You were invited to attend, what you make of that invitation is up to you. Just saying "no thanks" without engaging in the process until it was way too late will get you exactly what you got.

BTW, what's your "harmonization" schedule now?

You can't negotiate in the rear view mirror. Offers that were on the table in February were not on the table in April, my guess is that April's offer will not be on the table in June. Back in March, when the original deal fell through, I said get ready to hear "that was then, this is now." That still holds true.

 

[FDJ2]

I get tired of hearing this remark. Over 50% of our pilots are 50 or OLDER.

Reality check, the difference between the average age of both pilot groups is only 2 years.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Reality check, the difference between the average age of both pilot groups is only 2 years.

I was told by someone (can't remember who) that the average Delta pilot is 46 and the average NWA pilot is 54. I have no source so my information is not credible, but neither is yours.

 

[Gorditas]

Reality check, the difference between the average age of both pilot groups is only 2 years.

I'm cool with facts and reality, we need more of that, less of the "my Widget is bigger than your pointer." My specific question was how many are 50 or older? Do we have an updated spreadsheet for both airlines that break it down? Since both groups are not the same size, it would seem to me that average age would not give the whole picture.

 

[FDJ2]

I was told by someone (can't remember who) that the average Delta pilot is 46 and the average NWA pilot is 54. I have no source so my information is not credible, but neither is yours.

By your own admission your information has no source and is not credible, so how is it that you can judge the credibility of mine?

 

[hockeypilot44]

By your own admission your information has no source and is not credible, so how is it that you can judge the credibility of mine?

I did not intentionally judge your credibility. I would like to know the truth because I have heard and read different numbers from different people.

 

[FDJ2]

I did not intentionally judge your credibility. I would like to know the truth because I have heard and read different numbers from different people.

If I provid it you probably still wouldn't believe it, so I recommend you write your merger committee chairman and ask him. I'm sure he'll give you what he's got. Personally, I think it is and will be moot point at the end of the day.