DALLAPA this is fair ?

[Fly4hire]

While it is pretty common knowledge that NW were too aggressive back in Feb, and really screwed up by not making a deal happen, I think the DAL MEC has gone too far in this round.

Common knowledge as propagated by DAL talking points to leverage their position. If you saw their proposals I think you would not so easily buy that urban myth.

It seems to me that pretty much everyone feels the NW pilots have little to no leverage.

Everyone except the NWA MEC and pilots. You sure are buying a lot of that spin without questioning the source and motive.

IMO, DALPA's intergrity has been compromised and almost any offer from them will be met with suspicion and will be assumed to be in collaboration with mgmt.

Concur. We'll have to see some real movement on Moaks part, and it has to be verifiable and sustainable. SLI will NOT be sold off for some transitory contract improvement.

What is most tragic about all this is how both pilot groups buy into the whole "super-carrier" dream that mgmt has put out.

The synergies are real if the labor portion can be resolved in the next few months.

 

[Jet Wash]

OK, I've thought I've seen it all, but DAL ALPA is trying to push a Pan Am type of SLI on NWA.



NWA and DAL HAD AN AGREEMENT--

DAL wanted "credit" for 1000 people NOT ON THE PROPERTY,
putting OUR 1000 guys at the bottom!

"Yaall godda be kiddin', ..."



(DAL is pushing a "deal" worth 4 % less than what was

negotiated with NWAALPA ,... taking less pay, and less equity.)

I think the 1,000 guys you are referring to that aren't on property are the guys that are out on MLOA and furlough bypass. If that is the case, then that seems completely fair.

 

[whyfly]

FACT.....
Delta has roughly 6300 active pilots and roughly a thousand who are on MIl leave,sick leave,personal leave etc making a TOTAL seniority list of approx 7300+.
There is no conspiracy to insert "phantom" pilots on top of Northwest pilots

 

[General Lee]

NWA will have 1000 PHANTOM retirements that WILL all retire at exactly age 60. Yep. They will all go, with smiles on their faces. Let's get that in writing....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

There you go again, thinking someone is courting you and needs to make themselves worthy of you. This is business, not a date. Moak doesn't have to make any movement to win over NWA pilots. DALPA doesn't represent the NWA pilots, NWALPA does. [/COLOR]

DALPA made the DAL pilots relevant prior to the announcement, NWALPA was unable to do the same for the NWA pilots. That doesn't mean NWALPA doesn't have a post announcement strategy for success, it just means they weren't able to execute one prior to the announcement. Perhaps because they thought all timelines were false, I don't know, but eventually time did run out.

Regardless, there is plenty of work to be done by both MECs. The path towards SLI is well defined, we'll get there, the path towards a joint contract is not. It's in everyones interest to start working on the joint contract, the SLI will work itself out over time.

 

[800Dog]

Relative seniority and hats are optional. See how easy this is!!

 

[JAM-BRO]

DALPA made the DAL pilots relevant prior to the announcement, NWALPA was unable to do the same for the NWA pilots. That doesn't mean NWALPA doesn't have a post announcement strategy for success, it just means they weren't able to execute one prior to the announcement. Perhaps because they thought all timelines were false, I don't know, but eventually time did run out.

Regardless, there is plenty of work to be done by both MECs. The path towards SLI is well defined, we'll get there, the path towards a joint contract is not. It's in everyones interest to start working on the joint contract, the SLI will work itself out over time.

What I heard was that we were invited to attend but with the condition that we accept a "Harmonization Period" in which we would come up to DAL payrates in 3 yrs. Oh yeah, we'll take that!!!!!

 

[Gorditas]

NWA will have 1000 PHANTOM retirements that WILL all retire at exactly age 60. Yep. They will all go, with smiles on their faces. Let's get that in writing....


Bye Bye--General Lee

I get tired of hearing this remark. Over 50% of our pilots are 50 or OLDER. Regardless if they leave at 60 or 65, this is a HUGE group from the NWA side that will be leaving en-mass. 10 years or 15 years - it doesn't matter, they will ALL be gone. DAL already had a large group leave to keep a portion of their pension. Those guys got the $ benefit, and the guys who stayed moved up quickly. What percentage of the DAL pilots are 50 or older? Please answer with the number, maybe I'm mistaken on how many are around. I'm sure that if we could have fast-forwarded 15 years we would have new hires on the 757, 747FO, and A-330 just like DAL has been hiring into comparable equipment.

I would be happy to get an instant pay raise. However, the possibly short term pay raise pales in comparison to the seniority bump and associated position/pay bumps that brought me here in the first place. It might surprise some DAL pilots, but some of us that already live in Da' ATL don't want to live there permanently. I don't expect a big windfall from the merger, and I don't believe that most of the NWA pilots do either. But on the other hand, I don't want Lee Moak urinating on me and getting code-a-phone message telling me that it is raining. In no later than 15 years I was on pace to be at 50% on the list because of mandatory retirements - that was a huge factor in coming to NWA. I may be new, but I wasn't born yesterday. I don't expect to be in the exact same position with the combined carrier. But to end up at say 75% or lower at the same point in the future because I was put behind guys from DAL that had nowhere near the same seniority expectations - just because their double-breasted feces doesn't stink - doesn't sit well. Maybe that is not the really the case, but it sure seems like that is what is expected of us.

I hope that all of the negative rhetoric can end soon and we can come to an agreement that will result in a long and successful career for all involved. The truth of what has happened up until now probably lies between what both pilot groups are being told. Maybe we should apply some of that good old CRM - "It's not who is right, it's what is right."

 

[FDJ2]

What I heard was that we were invited to attend but with the condition that we accept a "Harmonization Period" in which we would come up to DAL payrates in 3 yrs. Oh yeah, we'll take that!!!!!

You were invited to attend, what you make of that invitation is up to you. Just saying "no thanks" without engaging in the process until it was way too late will get you exactly what you got.

BTW, what's your "harmonization" schedule now?

You can't negotiate in the rear view mirror. Offers that were on the table in February were not on the table in April, my guess is that April's offer will not be on the table in June. Back in March, when the original deal fell through, I said get ready to hear "that was then, this is now." That still holds true.

 

[FDJ2]

I get tired of hearing this remark. Over 50% of our pilots are 50 or OLDER.

Reality check, the difference between the average age of both pilot groups is only 2 years.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Reality check, the difference between the average age of both pilot groups is only 2 years.

I was told by someone (can't remember who) that the average Delta pilot is 46 and the average NWA pilot is 54. I have no source so my information is not credible, but neither is yours.

 

[Gorditas]

Reality check, the difference between the average age of both pilot groups is only 2 years.

I'm cool with facts and reality, we need more of that, less of the "my Widget is bigger than your pointer." My specific question was how many are 50 or older? Do we have an updated spreadsheet for both airlines that break it down? Since both groups are not the same size, it would seem to me that average age would not give the whole picture.

 

[FDJ2]

I was told by someone (can't remember who) that the average Delta pilot is 46 and the average NWA pilot is 54. I have no source so my information is not credible, but neither is yours.

By your own admission your information has no source and is not credible, so how is it that you can judge the credibility of mine?

 

[hockeypilot44]

By your own admission your information has no source and is not credible, so how is it that you can judge the credibility of mine?

I did not intentionally judge your credibility. I would like to know the truth because I have heard and read different numbers from different people.

 

[FDJ2]

I did not intentionally judge your credibility. I would like to know the truth because I have heard and read different numbers from different people.

If I provid it you probably still wouldn't believe it, so I recommend you write your merger committee chairman and ask him. I'm sure he'll give you what he's got. Personally, I think it is and will be moot point at the end of the day.