DAL, Why Vote No???

[JoeMerchant]

Looks like things are going well.....Kumbaya.....:laugh:

 

[DTW320]

Tell you what Bill, I have given my opinion that the JPWA TA is probably the best that can be achieved given the current environment we are in. Having said that, I would be first in line to agree that more is better. So, if you have a plan that has a high probability of allowing US to ALL achieve more, let's hear it. If it seems plausible, hey, I will support you 120%. Heck, I will volunteer to be your campaign manager and do all I can to get you elected negotiating committee chairman. Seriously, even though I think the current TA is a safe bet GIVEN THE SITUATION in the airline industry, I am VERY interested in getting even more. Just tell me how we accomplish it, factoring in the possible(likely?) response by management to us voting this down, and I'll be all for it if it seems reasonable. Just tell us the plan, give us the word, and I'll print up the flight kit stickers and go to town. Heck, I'll raise some cash and rent some billboards on Virginia Ave and over by the employee lot on Camp Creek to rally the troops.

I already understand your step #1: Vote NO. Now, what's step #2?

 

[nwaredtail]

Not that Junior here.....but could you blame them??

Lots of old NWA jets ready to park and the expedited arbitration plan makes the Delta junior people eat them.....but lets not go round and round like in other threads about what's going to be parked when.....simple economics show those DC-9's are as good as gone......heck, those 10's that NWA bought in 2000 were supposed to be around for decades right???

The new overtime scheme means more pickups by us greedy senior guys which then eliminates the need to
carry as many bodies.....The airline will furlough while the union looks the other way while people pick up trips with guys on the street.

Do I need to go on???

Expedited Arbitration....exactly what "Doctor" Stephens ordered...

So ask again?? Why should a junior Delta guy be worried???

Uhhh, the question was asked in jest. Pretty quick there huh Kyle Petty?

The only reason that more DC-9's would be parked is because of the merger, and if that happens, then the possible furloughs should be distributed by the SLI, or both sides. (heard rumor that this has already been discussed) Sucks to be junior.

Don't forget, DAL md-88 and 767-200 aren't exactly spring chickens. The DC-9 makes money the way NWA uses them.

 

[Superpilot92]

Tell you what Bill, I have given my opinion that the JPWA TA is probably the best that can be achieved given the current environment we are in. Having said that, I would be first in line to agree that more is better. So, if you have a plan that has a high probability of allowing US to ALL achieve more, let's hear it. If it seems plausible, hey, I will support you 120%. Heck, I will volunteer to be your campaign manager and do all I can to get you elected negotiating committee chairman. Seriously, even though I think the current TA is a safe bet GIVEN THE SITUATION in the airline industry, I am VERY interested in getting even more. Just tell me how we accomplish it, factoring in the possible(likely?) response by management to us voting this down, and I'll be all for it if it seems reasonable. Just tell us the plan, give us the word, and I'll print up the flight kit stickers and go to town. Heck, I'll raise some cash and rent some billboards on Virginia Ave and over by the employee lot on Camp Creek to rally the troops.

I already understand your step #1: Vote NO. Now, what's step #2?

Exactly, me too! Lets hear it Bill

 

[Noserider76]

The only reason that more DC-9's would be parked is because of the merger, and if that happens, then the possible furloughs should be distributed by the SLI, or both sides. (heard rumor that this has already been discussed) Sucks to be junior.

Don't forget, DAL md-88 and 767-200 aren't exactly spring chickens. The DC-9 makes money the way NWA uses them.

The -88s are 15 years newer than the newest -9 and the 767-200s were retired several years ago.

 

[jetjockey#1]

THANK YOU FOR PROVING TO EVERYONE YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHATS GOING ON AROUND YOU. EVIDENTLY YOU HAVE NO DESIRE TO GET INFORMED EITHER. PRETTY BIG WORDS FROM A GUY WHO JUST LEFT PINCHANICKLE AND YET IS TOO GOOD TO FLY AT A REGIONAL NOW . ALSO YOU SUCCESSFULLY PROVED THAT YOU HAVE NO CONCEPT ON HOW THE FLOWBACK WORKS. GET INFORMED, TALK WITH YOUR REPS AND AT LEAST GET EDUCATED BEFORE YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK LIKE A BUFFOON.

BY ALL MEANS HAVE A DIFFERNCE OF OPINION BUT AT LEAST GET INFORMED.

I tell you what; they better start “growing”….. Compass a whole a lot to accommodate 1200-1500 “captains”. You are a fool if you think that furloughs will be in the hundreds, if they happen at all.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Exactly, me too! Lets hear it Bill

Ok....Leverage is what we have. You used your leverage last year when nobody flew extra and acted like a union.

Aww shucks, we're poor.....aww shucks, oil is high.....not our problem.....

On the Delta side, all we hear about is "Let's get more money when we get healthy...." Just as things got healthy, management gets stupid (outside of oil prices), and announces a merger with an airline who's only value (before you get offended...to the merger and not as a whole) is the routes and the A330's and 320's.....

YET, prices are still in the cellar, and they are back to the same old playbook of staring around the table at all the other airlines at a party waiting to see who is going to pass out first. This cycle has been going on for at least the last decade and will continue. So we "give them time" Until 2013, which means 2015 until we see a new section 6 which will include backpay negotiated down to about 25 percent of what is owed.

You and I do not know what EXACTLY the airline is up to. I went to the LOA 19 roadshows and saw the economics. Fear is what runs the Moak administration. Plain and simple. Speak out and you are with the terrorists and I'm not buying into it. Run for the hills, the sky is falling crowd reigns supreme in the Moak propaganda scheme. Remember, this is the same guy who goes to the CFO's birthday party last year.

We are enabling a drunk by driving him to the liquor store for more booze. We give the company leeway to give pay raises to non-contract employees and buy out those who won't remain after the merger and all the while, they use excuses......See above. We have taken it in the shorts (all of us) and payback is due. If a concessionary contract with a bunch of "what-if" promises is what you strive for then, have at it. I am convinced these clowns running the show are just going to pi$$ away the one billion merger costs when it could be used for fuel as a standalone.

Remember who always ALWAYS killed a fare hike 5 years ago. It was Steenland. He put you into BK on purpose. NWA was and is a money making freight train on it's own and he did everything to derail it. They have the power to do it again...

Pay me NOW, that's my motto, no more stock options, no promises of rigged raises, no more "large airplane orders"...

Solutions?? I'm out of them. I don't have the Hahvahd pedigree but it's time for us to use some leverage. They need us, ever wonder why they apporached us on day one about this merger?? Was it because they were nice guys?? Or maybe they knew they'd better make us happy.....

But 320, I can't change oil prices and neither can you but I'm just curious why a "YES" vote will save the world. (Ball meet court)

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Looks like things are going well.....Kumbaya.....:laugh:

Hey, how'd that lawsuit work out for ya?:laugh:

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Looks like things are going well.....Kumbaya.....:laugh:

Joe, you just know your role and keep feeding the hub OK??

 

[DTW320]

The -88s are 15 years newer than the newest -9 and the 767-200s were retired several years ago.

Try again Nose.....quite of few of the DC9-50's were made in 1980. 15 years newer would be 1995. You maybe have 10 or 15 88's made in 1995 or later.

 

[Noserider76]

Try again Nose.....quite of few of the DC9-50's were made in 1980. 15 years newer would be 1995. You maybe have 10 or 15 88's made in 1995 or later.

I saw quite a few 1975 dates on those -50s when I was there (-30s much older) and was using a 1990 average (1987-1993) for the -88s. The -90s are 1995.

It really doesn't matter except for the fact that there is no doubt in my mind that the company will sh*t-can the -9s as fast as possible after they get a combined certificate. The technology between -9 and -88 is much different whether you want to admit it or not. We at DL have lost the jobs associated with 100 seat aircraft already (737-200/300s) and are now being asked to share the burden of job losses coming from another aircraft retirement. I've seen this company go from 10500 pilots to a low of around 6500. I hope I never see that again.

Main point coming up: We need to find a way to ensure that category of flying and those jobs remain on mainline this time and I don't think we've asked for enough protections in that regard with this joint contract.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Try again Nose.....quite of few of the DC9-50's were made in 1980. 15 years newer would be 1995. You maybe have 10 or 15 88's made in 1995 or later.

This link may clear things up....

http://www.planespotters.net/Produc...field_testreg=1&field_fate=1&rpp=150&search=1

MD90's were later....

http://www.planespotters.net/Produc...field_testreg=1&field_fate=1&rpp=150&search=1

 

[DTW320]

I saw quite a few 1975 dates on those -50s when I was there (-30s much older) and was using a 1990 average (1987-1993) for the -88s. The -90s are 1995.

It really doesn't matter except for the fact that there is no doubt in my mind that the company will sh*t-can the -9s as fast as possible after they get a combined certificate. The technology between -9 and -88 is much different whether you want to admit it or not. We at DL have lost the jobs associated with 100 seat aircraft already (737-200/300s) and are now being asked to share the burden of job losses coming from another aircraft retirement.

Main point coming up: We need to find a way to ensure that category of flying and those jobs remain on mainline this time and I don't think we've asked for enough protections in that regard with this joint contract.

Hey Nose,

I know, I know, I'm just giving you some grief about the specifics of your post. Hey, as for the technology, I'm not sure if there have been other NWA guys here disputing the differences, but I sure won't.....I've jumpseated up front on both many, many times, never flown either one (yes, there ARE NWA pilots that have never flown the -9) and the -88 is a lot nicer up front than our 9's (I like the newer interiors/bigger overheads on the -9 better than the -88....A LOT easier to get my purdy neat in the -9 overhead). Your 88's leather seats are nicer. Row # last on either is a windowless house of pain.

I think the immediate parking of the -9's post DCC is debateable, mainly because of RA's own comments about them, but it is certainly a strong possibility. I think the important part here is that any such parking will occur after the SLI. Any job losses associated with that will simply be a function of seniority. You are free to lament the fact that your airline is buying an airline that has some aircraft that your airline may want to park after the deal is done. It would obviously have been better for your side if NWA did the parking and furloughing before the DCC, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen and that is not something sinister orchestrated by NWAALPA. IF neither pilot group is able to control the timing of these fleet decisions then we are left with the simple reality that seniority, as determined by the SLI, either negotiated or arbitrated, will determine who gets hit by the parking of any aircraft in the NEW DELTA fleet.

Regarding your main point, I totally agree that if they park the, basically, 100 seat category that the -9 represents, we need to do all we can to keep the flying done by that on the mainline. I'm not entirely sure how the new # limit on 76 seat RJ's pans out for replacing all the 100-125 seat flying currently done by the -9's. Is your solution to change the 76 seat limit in the JPWA to a lower #? Like I've said to Lumberg about his concerns: That would be great. How, specifically, do we accomplish it after we vote down this TA?

You guys are preaching to the choir with most of this......i.e. we are basically on the same page as to "wants". The vote will be upon us very soon. Just like we needed in Iraq, we need a follow on plan for AFTER the shock-and-awe of a vote down of this TA.

 

[Superpilot92]

RA likes the -9 and i just dont see the 61 remaining going away anytime soon, especially since RA is actively attempting to cut out a lot of 50 seaters. That Lift has to be done 1 way or the other and with our new scope language that should help keep flying at mainline.

We all want more money
we all want stricter scope
we all want a "fair" SLI
we all want a strong viable company to work for.

Our wants are probably very similar, no need to divide the pilot group. It definitely wont help achieving these common goals. Just a thought.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

RA likes the -9 and i just dont see the 61 remaining going away anytime soon, especially since RA is actively attempting to cut out a lot of 50 seaters. That Lift has to be done 1 way or the other and with our new scope language that should help keep flying at mainline.

We all want more money
we all want stricter scope
we all want a "fair" SLI
we all want a strong viable company to work for.

Our wants are probably very similar, no need to divide the pilot group. It definitely wont help achieving these common goals. Just a thought.

Amen brother.....

That's our REAL threat. What will replace ANYTHING that gets parked....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Those 9's will not be parked because of the merger. It will be fuel prices people. That way they can furlough until their hearts content.

 

[Superpilot92]

Those 9's will not be parked because of the merger. It will be fuel prices people. That way they can furlough until their hearts content.

the feed has to be done by something and it wont be 50 seaters. The 50 seaters are on the chopping block. Our scope will limit the number of regional jets so something at Mainline will have to be flown. The -9s will be used until we get a replacement. 2 crjs arent any cheaper to operate than a DC9-40/50.

The feed has to come from somewhere. This is why its so important to make sure that flying is at mainline. IMHO the DC9s will be a filler until OUR replacement is found.

 

[Fly4hire]

Those 9's will not be parked because of the merger. It will be fuel prices people. That way they can furlough until their hearts content.

The DC9-50 is only marginally less fuel efficient than a DC9-80. Factor in the cost of the leases on the Mad Dogs and the DC9 costs less to operate.

It doesn't matter that they are old or lack automation, it's about total cost of ownership vs. the revenue they generate.

If the former NWA DC9's are on the chopping block I'd be real concerned about the DAL DC9-80/88 as well.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fly4Hire:

That just is not true. Each 9 replaced by an RJ adds ~ 4.1 million yearly to the bottom line INCLUDING ACQUISITION COSTS. The only restraint is the lact of a common operating certificate, which will act as a short term fence.

The 76 seat RJ brings in nearly as much revenue, costs much less to operate and is more capable.

I do not understand why you NWA guys are so protective of the DC9. Can anyone explain this irrational behavior?

We all wish that it was sticking around and that our union had not allowed management to outsource the replacement jets, but it is what it is and we have to be realistic.

AND YES, the MD88 is also on the block. Our MD88 fleet is shrinking. The numbers and capabilities of the MD88 give it a little breathing room, as well as a greater likelyhood of beig replaced by a mainline sized airplane, but YES the MD88 is next.

 

[~~~^~~~]

the feed has to be done by something and it wont be 50 seaters. The 50 seaters are on the chopping block. Our scope will limit the number of regional jets so something at Mainline will have to be flown. The -9s will be used until we get a replacement. 2 crjs arent any cheaper to operate than a DC9-40/50.

The feed has to come from somewhere. This is why its so important to make sure that flying is at mainline. IMHO the DC9s will be a filler until OUR replacement is found.

255 Large RJ's. Yes, 2 RJ's can be cheaper while producing greater revenue.

PLEASE don't make me search those quotes again from your President and CFO on the replacement for the DC9's, this is getting so old. Every two weeks you guys get back on the DC9 junk again and I've got to find Steenland's posts. Lets just skip this round - OK?