DAL to recall all furloughed pilots

[jarhead]

FDJ2

Taking your statements at face value, and for the sake of discussion, assume everything you state is valid.

The 'problem' being mainly caused by bad management, how does the company get rid of the inept management? Where would the company go to find management that makes good decisions? Is it the stockholders who have elected incompetent people to sit on the BOD? And has the BOD, who was put in place by the stock holders, put poor people on executive row?

My recollection of history shows me an awful large percentage of people who have run airlines (CEO's) have been scoundrels and opportunists. I am wondering why such a disproportionate percentage of airline executives seem to be such 'bad seeds' Any thoughts about that?

 

[SoBeFlyer]

"No one person is an airline. An airline is a team. It must be friendly, courteous, cooperative, efficient, and bound as closely as a devoted family."

"The quality of Delta's service...will determine who gets the business."

- C. E. Woolman, Delta Air Lines Founder, President, & Chairman




... of course he was management, and you're not supposed to trust management and what they say, right?

 

[bafanguy]

I doubt C. E. Woolman ever envisioned what has become of the airline industry in the last 20 years or so. His understanding and wisdom are more suited to a time we'll never see again. I wish it could be as simple as when he ran things.

P.S. Dave Garrett was the last one you could "trust".

 

[FDJ2]

Re: FDJ2

My recollection of history shows me an awful large percentage of people who have run airlines (CEO's) have been scoundrels and opportunists. I am wondering why such a disproportionate percentage of airline executives seem to be such 'bad seeds' Any thoughts about that?

Two quotes from the book "Hard Landings" the epic contest for power and profits that plunged the airlines into chaos might shed some light on the airline CEO.

" The men who run the airlines of America are an extreme type; calling them men of ego would be like calling Mount McKinley a rise in the landscape. Airlines demand a single strategic vision, lest the delicate choreography of airplanes, people, timetables, and finance breakdown. The airlines attract and promote executives obsessed with control, who flourish at the center of all decision making."

"the same overweening ambition that drives so many executives to the top also assures their failure; that when executives form emotional attachments in business, whether to people, markets, or machinery, they deprive themselves of their best business judgment; that those who know an an industry best are the most likely to take for granted, and ultimately ignore, its most inviolate principles; that although the rebuke may be slow in coming, greed , in the end, is almost always punished; that economics, in short, overpowers ego."

My take on this is that it takes a certain personality type to rise to the top of the executive suite of such a fiercely competitive industry. In an ironic twist, the ambition, greed, ego and singleminded determination to win that so many top executives possess in this industry both lead to their success and may ultimately lead to their failure.

 

[2auburn]

to jarhead and boilerup

we as pilots have almost no control over management..... to make smart business decisions i.e. yield control, marketing, executive bonus, etc.

all we can do is hold them to the contract we both signed, which will in turn motivate them to make smart business decisions, return to profitibilty, and please the shareholders

if we do not hold them to a set standard all accountabilty will be lost, and the profession will never be restored!!!!!

we are just trying to protect what others have worked hard to create for me, you, or anyone else who wants a career as a MAJOR airline pilot

 

[MedFlyer]

Re: to jarhead and boilerup

all we can do is hold them to the contract we both signed, which will in turn motivate them to make smart business decisions, return to profitibilty, and please the shareholders

The problem is that the DALPA contract does NOT encourage DL to make good decisions....in fact it has just the opposite effect.

DALPA's contract with DL encouraged management to go on the massive RJ buying binge. DALPA's contract gave the 70 seaters to DCI when they should have gone to mainline. These contractual provisions are a large part of the reason so many DL guys ended up on the streets after 9/11. Their own contract made it happen.

 

[Vortilon]

MedFlyr,

At least our last contract put some limits on 70-seaters. I wish the limit was 0 but I guess that didn't happen. Its too bad the major airline pilots completely missed the boat on RJs back in the 90s. (I was more concerned with ground reference maneuvers in 172s at the time). Hopefully we've gotten better at forecasting threats to our jobs. Unfortunately with 5-7 years between adjusting contract language it sure is hard to respond effectively when something is exploited. I'm not sure why none of the majors wanted to fly these aircraft (50 seat jets)...even if the forecasts of their popularity/feesability were low. An airplane is an airplane and it brings jobs. Anyway....

I was looking through one of my "history of Delta Air Lines" books last night and saw a picture of the DC-9-10. 65 Seats. Delta bought a bunch of them and it was a mainline plane.

How'd that change in 30 years?

 

[601Pilot]

"How did that change?"

DAL pilots got greedy. I bet there are plenty
of DAL DC-3 pilots turning over in their graves
because the DAL pilots outsourced the flying for
up to 70 seats. It looks to me that the DAL
pilots have focused on the middle and upper tier
aircraft the last 20 years and not concerned
themselves with the lower end. This was evident
in the creation of Delta Express in the 90s.
Thanksfully, they fixed that in the next contract.
I think they would have to give up alot in order
to bring the RJ flying under the DAL pilots.
I don't think they are willing even if they could
convince management.

 

[skydraulic]

I was looking through one of my "history of Delta Air Lines" books last night and saw a picture of the DC-9-10. 65 Seats. Delta bought a bunch of them and it was a mainline plane

Heck, I think a Travel Air held less than 10 pax!...hey while you got that history book out...just out of curiousity, what year did DAL pilots bring a union in? ...was it DALPA from the getgo?

 

[g159av8tor]

"Delta Air Lines and its pilots union have agreed that rising passenger traffic has reached a level that triggers the recall of more than 1,000 furloughed pilots, officials said Monday night.

"We will be meeting this week to determine the timing and the pace and the logistics of this," Delta spokesman John Kennedy said.

The 1,060 pilots were laid off after the Sept. 11 terror attacks sent the entire industry into a tailspin - and despite a "no furlough" clause in the contract with the Air Line Pilots Association."

Somebody has to fly the 328s when ACA is released from DCI. Seventy seaters weren't good enough, but the 32-seat Dork is mighty fine. Just joking.

I've got good friends on furlough there, glad to see they'll be back sooner than later. DALPA has much clout and is respected in the ALPA community. They are the epitome of what a cohesive group can accomplish when competent chiefs lead and trusting, educated indians follow.

Tailwinds...AJR

 

[Vortilon]

The book doesn't cover that...but that's a great question though. Its more about the routes & airplanes and personalities leading the company. There's a good picture of a much younger Gerald Grinstein when he was CEO of Western. A lot of parallels to today's situation. (Company not doing well, needing concessions, business plan needed tweaking) Consolidation occured after Western got their conessions and improved business plan into place. Merely history or foreshadowing? Only the shadow knows!

I think ALPA has been at DAL since the 40s but I'm not positive. I think ALPA & DAL enjoyed a pretty congenial "gentlemen's agreement" relationship until the 80's. All of the connection carriers currently in use were started in the early to late 70s and were used to feed DAL. Metros, Bandits, Saabs, Brasilias, etc. This book was written pre-RJ and talked about the MD11 being the airplane to take DL to the next Milennium. I guess technically he was right but not much past that.

The Delta group was looked upon as a bunch of push-overs by ofther ALPA groups for a long time but that's certainly not the case now. I think as a union, though, we're a fairly level headed group and have stuck a good balance and approach things in a more businesslike fasion as opposed to a militant, emotional stance. Heck, it was only a few years ago that DALPA did their first informational picketing. That was a huge deal.

I'm sure there are others more versed in DALPA/DAL history than I am....I'm just a newbie.

But I wouldn't be so quick to call the DAL guys greedy when it came to outsourcing. The entire major airline industry dropped the ball on this one. A lot more of us would be working for majors and having nicer lives if they hadn't. Just think maybe the pay would be similar to current regional rates but you'd have duty rigs, more years towards your retirement, we wouldn't be fighting over scope clauses as much, more stability, better benefits, more of a defined future....I could go on & on.

After we achieve a goal we tend to forget where we came from and what we've left behind. How many of you flying as RJ FOs keep up with the latest and greatest affecting pay and working conditions for Flight Instructors and Charter Pilots. How many of you sitting in the left seat of the CRJ cared about fighting for EMB120 payrates on your latest contract? I have plenty of friends at COEX who were happy to see the "all jet fleet" come about, later to watch COEX furlough after 911 and bring in other airlines to fly 1900s and EMB120s. Suddenly those airplanes didn't seem to shabby any more, especially if you were close to being out the door and out of a job. We all have been guilty of short-sightedness...you can call it greed but I think its more of forgetting where you came from.