DAL RJ order soon?

[surplus1]

General

For the sake of conversation ___ what would YOU have the evil senior CMR pilots do to help our junior brothers and sisters?

Instead of all of this bickering, we could have had a flow through or preferential hiring for you--

How about that flow through? Would you be satisfied if we had given you what the Eagle pilots gave the AA pilots? Would you "love us" today had we done that or would you be doing to us exactly what the AA pilots are doing to the Eagle pilots?

If we had cut a flow through deal with you (back then), would it have included our senior pilots flowing to the bottom of your list and your junior pilots flowing back to the top of our list in the left seat or would you have been willing to flow back to the bottom of our list?

What would be the proper "ratios" in your idea of a good flow through? Would we all "flow" before you hired off the street or would 1 of us flow for every 3 that you hire elsewhere, while you flow back to the left seat one-for-one?

This flow through offer (the one your MEC lied about making), would it have been "just for Comair" or were they offering it to ALL DCI carriers?

Which one of "us" (DCI) was going to "flow first"? ASA, BEX, CMR or SKYW? Would you have added ACA and CHQ when they came on board, or was this just a "special deal" for Comair?

Since we only had +- 1000 pilots "back then" and since you furloughed 1300 pilots, who would be flying the CMR RJs today? Would it be our pilots or your pilots? Where would the 700 pilots we've hired since then be working today?

Where would Comair's "junior pilots", you know, the one's you are accusing us seniors of harming, be working today? Do you think they would have been at CMR or would they be sending resumes to Great Lakes?

What exactly was the preferential hiring that you "offered'? Did your management agree to that? Or, did your MEC Chairman just "offer" a deal that he couldn't make? Would we have been "preferred" ahead of the ASA guys or after them? How would our "preference" stack up against the military network at your place.... would we be "preferred" to them or "preferred" after them?

If we had agreed to a staple on your terms (back when), who would be flying our airplanes today? Would your furloughees be flying them? Do you think P38lightning would be employed at Comair?

Would you have been willing to give us one (1) seniority number, on the bottom of your list, for every six (6) you hired off the street? You know, like the "deal" you gave some of the junior PanAm pilots?

Do you think our junior pilots would be better off today if, instead of harming them as you say we are, the seniors had cut a deal with your MEC to give 50% of the Captain vacancies to furloughed Delta pilots and to pay your furloughed pilots the highest FO rates and give them half of those vacancies too? That's what the "seniors" did at USAirGroup, and Mesa, and Chautauqua, and TSA. Maybe you think Comair's senior pilots should do the same thing here, so that your furloughed pilots can get those slots? Is that how we should "help our juniors"?

And by the way, just so you'll know, the legendary "system chief pilot" that you mention in your posts, was not a system chief pilot. As a matter of fact when he was given the title of "chief pilot" he was so "junior" that he could not qualify to legally hold the position under FAR rules. So he got the "title" and someone else covered for him on the paper work. So please, spare us the crowing about what he told you and how much he knows about how senior CMR pilots hurt our juniors. It's a bunch of crap.

He's not a bad guy, and yes, I do know who he is. He meant well and he did a pretty good job while he was here. He was a good Marine and a good pilot and a nice guy, but don't pan him off as a pillar of wisdom who knows what's best for CMR pilots. He wasn't that when he was here and he isn't that now. Just let him do his job and be a good Delta pilot. Don't waste time making him out to be what he was not. You have a big audience on this board and not all of us came here yesterday.

Some of us know a whole lot more about what's really gone down over the years than the skuttle but that you've "heard" in your management meetings, your crew lounges, or from you DMEC contacts.

Your efforts to help your furloughed pilots are commendable and you seem to be a "nice guy" with good intentions. Leave it at that and stop trying so hard to blow smoke up the butts of our junior pilots. Try to remember that "The road to hell and back is paved with good intentions." The truth is you're a relatively junior pilot yourself and if your rhetoric is indicative of how you really think, you believe way to much of what you "hear" from your own seniors and from your management. Don't be so gullible. As someone way smarter than me once said, "Believe none of what you hear and only 'half of what you see." That's good advice. I suggest you take it.

Don't forget my opening question, please. Tell me what YOU think the senior CMR pilots should do (for you) so that we don't "harm our junior pilots". I'd really like to know.

Regards

 

[blott]

Pan...Pan...Pan...

7500....7500...7500...

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**! What will the Gen say now?? TICKTOCK TICKTOCK .

 

[FDJ2]

My fear is that your scope will result in the cnx of the 737-800 orders and the acquisition of a bunch of lousy Dorniers that will not be flown by your pilots, or ours. When will your MEC decide we would be better off together and stop with the plans to divide and conquer other organized labor groups?

~~~^~~~

Explain how having scope would cnx the 737-800 order.

FYI, Delta is able to convert some of its 737-800 orders into 737-600 orders. The parts , maintenance and training commonalities with the 737-800 are attractive to DAL management, but no decision has been made on them.

I might be wrong, but doesn't the DAL PWA grandfather those 105 seaters at ASA. Or perhaps you got rid of them prior to the acquisition. Regardless, if you had proper successorship and acquisition protections in your PWA to begin with you wouldn't have these problems and you probably would never have been acquired to begin with.

 

[lowecur]

EMB seems to be out

According to Bad Andy, who is working the LIMA03 airshow, the DL/EMB possibility won't happen. He said Malaysia Airlines will tie up the 190/195 production for a number of years with a large order. I have received responses from a few people on line that DL has been in serious talks on the Russian RRJ. This is a joint project that includes Boeing. It is supposed to go into service in 2007, provided they don't have certification problems. Nobody seems to believe DL will go with the 717 or 736.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Explain how having scope would cnx the 737-800 order.

I might be wrong, but doesn't the DAL PWA grandfather those 105 seaters at ASA.

Regardless, if you had proper successorship and acquisition protections in your PWA to begin with you wouldn't have these problems and you probably would never have been acquired to begin with.

(1) If your scope causes cnx of the ACA contract when they operate non approved aircraft types, DAL remains obligated for the financing, but the cost is now transferred to Delta, an airline on course for bankruptcy in 2005, which is when the 737-800's were deferred to. If there is not money to pay for them, then there is not money to pay for them. The Dornier deal was inked years ago and is harder to get out of. So yes, your airplanes could be another unintended failure of your own scope - far fetched, but possible.

(2) The 105 seaters were grandfathered to ASA, until contract 2000. Duane Woerth signed an agreement that harmed ASA pilots in violation of the union's duty of fair representation and the Constitution and Bylaws when he moved the scope limit from 105 to 50 seats. It is possible that will be overturned in Court.

Think of it this way. Your MEC sold the flying in 1996 to preserve pay rates. You can not simply steal the flying back in 2000 beacuse it was sold to somebody else, it is not yours to take. A five year old can understand the concept of selling something, I'm pretty sure a jury can understand it as well. As this suit enters the discovery phase the Delta MEC would be well advised to work with the ASA and Comair MEC's to fix the representational problem before they are out of the loop and ASA and Comair legitimately gain the right to negotiate their own contracts with their employer.

(3) Our acquisition protections are contained in the Consitution and Bylaws of our union. It seemed inconcievable at the time that the union would be hijacked and ignore its own merger and fragmentation policy....

But, by ignoring its own merger and fragmentation policy, I upgraded while others got furloughed - not that I'm happy about it, or gloating. The unfortunate truth is that Delta MEC's divide and conquer scope has screwed their own junior pilots much more than it has screwed me. Overall, the Delta scope has achieved nothing but allowed the rest of the industry to fall into a race for the bottom, lowering the profession and putting enormous negative wage pressure on the Delta pilots, who now earn 62% more than the industry average.

I'm not anti scope. I'm very pro scope. But my friends at Delta do not seem to realize that we are all in this together. We need a system scope solution that all three MECs participate in creating.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: EMB seems to be out

I have received responses from a few people on line that DL has been in serious talks on the Russian RRJ. This is a joint project that includes Boeing. It is supposed to go into service in 2007, provided they don't have certification problems. Nobody seems to believe DL will go with the 717 or 736.

Oh great, so we get to negotiate pay cuts for a paper airplane built by the ruskies?

Er' um' do you know anyone who can walk my stuff in at Airtran?

 

[lowecur]

Still fighting the cold war, eh?

Actually the Russians have many excellent unemployed aeronautical engineers. The RRJ will have Western Engines, Western Avionics, and they are receiving loads of help from their partner, Boeing. It should make it's first flight in 2006, and Boeing is planning on a heavy lobby for their largest clients.

The real key is weather they want to build the RRJ 95 (100 seater) first, or last. If they build it first they will have a big market with Air France/KLM, US Airlines, and the Russian Airlines. The RRJ 55 ( 60 seater) has been the one most talked about.

Keep in mind we need to return the favor, since Aeroflot uses 767's. By the way, do you have a problem riding in Japanese and German cars? Too young to remember the big one?

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

Sorry I took so long, just got off a long 4 day. Anyways, first off---no one could have predicted 9-11. If we had negotiated a flow thorugh---it would have been good for everyone back then---no doubt.(2000) But, bad things happen, obviously. The AA flow through was pretty good, although it obviously favored the AA guys vs the Eagle guys, and that was known by all of us at that time, too. I am not a negotiator, so I don't really know what Dalpa and DCI would have negotiated----but probably Comair and ASA seniority lists would have been merged (DOH) and then a possible flow up would have commenced. I don't know if there would have been a ratio--like 75% of each class comes from DCI---but I bet that would have worked---for all of us. Your senior pilots would have moved up--probably at second year pay (well over $100 an hour), and things would have flowed up or down, depending on the circumstances. I think preferrential hiring would have been along the same lines---easier interview, maybe no test, and class date assigned....I don't know. It would have been in your favor, though---no doubt. But, that Comair System Chief pilot told me that your senior guys didn't want that---they wanted credit on their date of hire---maybe credit for years of service. That wasn't going to work.

What do I think your senior guys should have done? Announced what they were doing in negotiations with Dalpa---like the possible preferrential hiring or flow through. I bet the majority would have been for it. No one knew that 9-11 was going to happen. To say that some might be furloughed now---you are probably right--but we never saw that coming. Did you? Lawson did, right? Wrong. Times were great back then, and things were booming. To say that your senior pilots "saved" the junior ones from furlough is only a half truth. Sure, it worked out for them, but no one knew what was going to happen.

As far as the Pan Am guys---I would say they were pretty lucky with what they got. Ever heard of the "dirty 30"? There were 30 senior 747 pilots who "heard from a little bird" that Delta was going to keep certain pilots on certain planes we were going to keep---like some of the Pan Am Shuttle 727s and some A310's. the "dirty 30" bid down to the 727 as Captains, bumping people off those planes, then Delta announced the purchase. Those new 727 Capts immediately bid INTL 767 Delta Capt in JFK and got their bids--immediately. Some of those 727 guys that were bumped did not go over to Delta--and hit the street. Nice. Their airline, Pan Am, was going down the tubes, and they got Delta INTL 767 Capt. Not bad.

Anyways, that's my opinion. I don't think the Delta guys would have made the Comair or ASA guys have an AA/Eagle type flow up. I think a lot of the shortfalls of that flow through were known at the time, and your guys wouldn't have accepted it. But, we shall never know now. It might have been great, and 9-11 changed a lot of things and affected a lot of people---and nobody could have predicted that one.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ever heard of .... There were 30 senior 747 pilots who "heard from a little bird" that Delta was going to keep certain pilots on certain planes we were going to keep---like some of the Pan Am Shuttle 727s and some A310's. the "dirty 30" bid down to the 727 as Captains, bumping people off those planes, then Delta announced the purchase. Those new 727 Capts immediately bid INTL 767 Delta Capt in JFK and got their bids--immediately. Some of those 727 guys that were bumped did not go over to Delta--and hit the street. Nice. Bye Bye--General Lee

Why General, of course we heard about them. The "little bird" was the Delta MEC and Michael Haber, Esq. made a few million off that little bit of ALPA malfeasance. ALPA mortgaged the property in Herndon to pay the settlement and all ALPA members, my father and I too, got to pay for it.

Again, it was a Duty of Fair representation case where some ALPA members got shut out so that other, favored, ALPA members could reap the spoils of an acquisition. Yes, we know all about that.

As far as a flow through goes, no way, no how, I'll lead an unauthorized job action first! A flow through is just a half hearted promise of something in the future given in exchange for taking something less than what we are worth now. The Delta MEC and Delta are not parties I trust to keep their promises (the MEC undermined the Constitution and Bylaws of the union and banks are charging Delta 8% over prime because they don't figure they can keep their promises either).

You bought my airline, we operate in an integrated transportation system, let the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy work without interference to put us on one list, with one contract, and one scope. Those are the rules. I might get stapled and I might not like it, but I'm willing to follow the rules.

Forget the "flow through." A number, or keep your hands off my airline. Those are the choices. If my MEC ever started a flow through bunch o crap I'll be the one with a bunch of proxies and a recall motion at the next LEC meeting.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

Still fighting the cold war, eh?

Actually the Russians have many excellent unemployed aeronautical engineers. The RRJ will have Western Engines, Western Avionics, and they are receiving loads of help from their partner, Boeing. It should make it's first flight in 2006, and Boeing is planning on a heavy lobby for their largest clients.

The real key is weather they want to build the RRJ 95 (100 seater) first, or last. If they build it first they will have a big market with Air France/KLM, US Airlines, and the Russian Airlines. The RRJ 55 ( 60 seater) has been the one most talked about.

They could take a TU204 and take 100 seats out of it. It has Western engines and avionics and looked like a 757. They built..... 4 of them. Or no, the AN 226 another runaway success, er'.... built 1. The TU304 is a possibility. After almost 40 years, they invented a DC-9! Heavier, with more fuel burn and less proven than a 717, with slightly less capacity what a winner.

Don't make Herb Kelleher soil himself laughing. I've got to get off this board and get my 737 type.

 

[lowecur]

~~~~~

Cynical?

I don't think Boeing was behind those other a/c. Don't underestimate Russian aeronautics with the financial backing of Boeing. While they still have a long way to go, Russia is seeing some heavy investment from Western businesses. They have a highly educated society, cheap labor, and a competitive spirit.

People laughed at the first Toyota's and Datsun's. Try not to be so condescending.

 

[Caveman]

"As far as a flow through goes, no way, no how, I'll lead an unauthorized job action first! A flow through is just a half hearted promise of something in the future given in exchange for taking something less than what we are worth now. The Delta MEC and Delta are not parties I trust to keep their promises (the MEC undermined the Constitution and Bylaws of the union and banks are charging Delta 8% over prime because they don't figure they can keep their promises either).

You bought my airline, we operate in an integrated transportation system, let the ALPA merger and fragmentation policy work without interference to put us on one list, with one contract, and one scope. Those are the rules. I might get stapled and I might not like it, but I'm willing to follow the rules.

Forget the "flow through." A number, or keep your hands off my airline. Those are the choices. If my MEC ever started a flow through bunch o crap I'll be the one with a bunch of proxies and a recall motion at the next LEC meeting."


Amen Fins, Amen.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

I really doubt that a flow through will EVER happen now. You have your wish. As far as the ALPA "merger" policy----the pilots cannot have a financial winfall---and it therefore goes by salaries. Your number one pilot would still be stapled because even our bottom furlough gets credit in years during furlough, and he will come back at 3rd or 4th year pay (hopefully)--which will still be higher than your top pay---even with another 15% paycut. The staple would have happened with the ALPA policy anyways.

I know you know more about ALPA and its malfeasance---and I do learn something new each time I read your posts. But, I still support them because--it's all I've got. They do support a lot of things that I believe in, and I still think that a lot of this is political---but that is the way it works. I have seen good and bad things with ALPA--but so far the good things far out number the bad.


Lowecur,

I still think the A318 or EMB-190 will be the "choice".........but I don't really know....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

As far as the ALPA "merger" policy----the pilots cannot have a financial winfall---and it therefore goes by salaries....The staple would have happened with the ALPA policy anyways.

I know you know more about ALPA and its malfeasance---and I do learn something new each time I read your posts. But, I still support them because--it's all I've got. They do support a lot of things that I believe in, and I still think that a lot of this is political---but that is the way it works. I have seen good and bad things with ALPA--but so far the good things far out number the bad.

Yep, it would have been a staple (if based on either paycheck, or equipment - as always has been done) Those are the rules. Your MEC undermined those rules and your pilots were furloughed as a result.

Yes we agree about ALPA. If it were not worth saving the RJDC would not be spending a lot of their own time and money trying to fix it and restore it to the Consitutional Democracy that it is intended to be. Believe me, a decertification drive would have been cheaper, quicker, and lots easier. If the lawsuit fails to restore our union, Comair and ASA will probably decertify. I've heard our own MEC members say they would lead the decertification effort, but the political wind has probably shifted since the failed PID was a recent memory.

~~~^~~~

 

[N2264J]

EMB

erjpusher,

so did you ever really come up with what you think the "B" stands for in EMB?? maybe "Boat"???


duh, ERJ-EMB, whatever....

It doesn't stand for anything.

EMBraer

 

[N2264J]

Re: DAL RJ order...

It sounds like Delta saved the shareholders some money by furloughing pilots, and they are bringing them back at a lower payscale--727FE pay--we don't even have them anymore---while they sit and wait for an advanced entitlement. And, I think we all will share the "concessionary pain."

An entitlement? You're making my point. And you think the Comair pilots should help pay mainline pilots 55 hours a month to sit at home?

Look what is happeneing to your expansion plans---they will bring in more Chataqua planes if you don't. Aren't you glad you don't have your own scope clause? You should have negotiated your own expansion---but you didn't. Scope is good.

Bye Bye--General Lee: rolleyes

Well, Comair is expanding in SLC while mainline is shrinking there. So how's that scope working out for you?

By the way, Comair pilots don't have adequate scope protection because the union to which they pay their dues won't let them negotiate with the real management. An inherent conflict of interest precipitated the lawsuit that mainline pilots, many pilots at all airlines for that matter, seem incapable of comprehending.

The PID petition for merger, Date of Hire, windfall, etc. and all the talk of scope including the lie that the RJDC seeks the elimination of scope are only symptoms of the problem and frankly, red herring arguments that cloud peoples thinking and make understanding less likely. The core issue is representation (it's one of the words in the phrase Duty of Fair Representation) and ALPA's responsibility to their members at smaller airlines.

Comair pilots are being asked to pay for growth as they approach the block hour ratio limits set by the Delta MEC. This isn't passing the smell test.

 

[General Lee]

N2246J,

Well, from what I know about SLC, yes, they are losing a total of about 20 flights a day, but mainly to Montana and the late bank of flights. Yes, that is a loss. But, according to an ATL Assistant Chief Pilot, they are moving some of the ATL/CVG crews that were going thru SLC onto flights for Song, and to nonstops from ATL/CVG to other cities--like more ATL-SFO nonstops etc. (To combat Airtran/Ryan for example) And, the SLC guys are actually expanding to new cities from SLC---getting two daily Detroit flights, and adding flights to MSP and gaining PHX back.(1 flight) I am sure some of them will miss Montana, though. Comair gained a whopping 6 flights. Check out that growth. Skywest gained 22 flights I believe--because they can do it for less. ASA didn't get any, but still retain their 3 flights to California at night. Are you getting the message yet? Your growth plans are being smashed, and not really by Dalpa---but by Delta. Stand strong my brother!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[N2264J]

DAL RJ order...

Are you getting the message yet? Your growth plans are being smashed, and not really by Dalpa---but by Delta.
Bye Bye--General Lee: rolleyes

No, Comair's growth is being smashed by ALPA.

DCI is running up against the ratio limits imposed by mainline scope. Now, Comair pilots are being asked to make consessions for growth. ALPA has been complicite with management in establishing this alter ego debacle. Management will get away with it because ALPA has embraced and allows it to the detriment of all ALPA members. And, oh by the way, any consessions made by the Comair pilots will mitigate the consessions the Delta pilots have to make.

Are you getting the message yet? This is a dismal failure of the union.

 

[DAL737FO]

DCI is running up against the ratio limits imposed by mainline scope. Now, Comair pilots are being asked to make consessions for growth.

How do ratio limits have anything to do with concessions? A limit is a limit. It has nothing to do with pay. God you guys amaze me some times. The ratio limit has to do with anyone in the "Portfolio" not just Comair and ASA.