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DAL MEC meets Comair MEC
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VFR on Top
Dorkprop Driver
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NYRANGERS
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VFR on Top said:
Come on, you know what I mean. Try all you like to make it sound like I look down at any pilot. I know where I came from. I was talking about captain wages. You will understand a lot more when you enter the industry (if that is your goal).
Anyway I am though with this issue. I enjoy discussing all these issues with everyone. Sometimes it is fun to argue. I wish all pilots prosperity, and fullfilment.
Happy holidays.
NYR
Last edited:
mangmntsuks
Member
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VFR on Top, you have not earned the right to comment on this issue.
$80/hr aint sh!t when you consider the responsibility and experience it takes to get to the Left seat of an airline jet.
People like you are part of the reason Airline Pilots have trouble getting fair wages. You're just sooo stary-eyed around jets. WAKE UP!
$80/hr aint sh!t when you consider the responsibility and experience it takes to get to the Left seat of an airline jet.
People like you are part of the reason Airline Pilots have trouble getting fair wages. You're just sooo stary-eyed around jets. WAKE UP!
Freight Dog
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- Nov 26, 2001
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- 2,232
Hey FELLOW AVIATOR... I have a bone to pick with your post regarding WHY hire furloughed mainline pilots.
They won't inhibit your seniority or your career progression or your schedule or pay, however by hiring them you would help out a fellow pilot feed his or her family. I am in no way associated with Delta or DCI, but as another airline pilot, I find it extremely distasteful and frankly, DISGUSTING, that you would use jobs as a political ploy. This is on par with using jumpseat as a political tool which is also wrong.
They won't inhibit your seniority or your career progression or your schedule or pay, however by hiring them you would help out a fellow pilot feed his or her family. I am in no way associated with Delta or DCI, but as another airline pilot, I find it extremely distasteful and frankly, DISGUSTING, that you would use jobs as a political ploy. This is on par with using jumpseat as a political tool which is also wrong.
VFR on Top
Dorkprop Driver
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Hmm...gee...do you know ANYONE making $80/hr at a regional? I agree with you entirely that pay at the regionals is not commensurate with the responsibility that pilots shoulder. Before you open your trap next time, why don't you do a search on my previous posts and see where I actually stand on the issue of pilot compensation at the regionals. It might be an eye-opener for you. "Starry-eyed around jets"? Pretty bold statement for someone who doesn't know me from Adam....mangmntsuks said:
And my right to comment on this issue is guaranteed by the United States Constitution and the FlightInfo.com terms of service so how's about you go p!ss up a rope.
VFR on Top said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but if your saying that Captains at regionals do not make 80/hr then your mistaken.
If that is not what you mean then my mistake.
Go to ASAcontract.com to see compensation scale.
To be a captain on the RJ is worth much more that 80/hr though without question.
skiddriver
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Well this thread certainly took off while I was out on that trip...
Flying Sig, my point was that since the DALPA MEC was asking for preferential hiring, that means that any furloughed Delta guy gets head of the line priviledges here, and they as a group get first crack at all vacancies.
This isn't the first time that one of the MEC's has gone to the other and initiated a discussion about placing one pilot group's pilots on the other's list. The previous times however, it was the Comair pilot group approaching the Delta pilot group. The "group memory" here of the Delta MEC's response (i.e. submit a resume like anyone else and those of you who are qualified might get hired), whether or not that recollection is 100% accurate, has left some of the folks at Comair with a less than generous spirit now that the shoe is on the other foot.
My previous post was intended to point out that there is a lot of history at work here and that the DALPA phone message did not accurately reflect what transpired at the meeting. My report of the meeting is second-hand, so I can only say that the Comair MEC did not say "No" out of hand. It was more like a "Okay, besides the warm fuzzy feeling it will provide, what's in it for us? How about that seniority list combination issue we brought up with you guys before"? The Delta guys were the ones who said "No".
If their telephone message had reflected reality and hadn't been like my brother who used to tell my Mom that I'd hit him, without revealing that he'd hit me first, I probably wouldn't have even posted. It's self-serving and intended to unfairly deflect the dissatisfaction of the Delta membership from their MEC to the Comair pilot group.
As far as I'm concerned, I could care less how many furloughees get hired here or from what airline as long as they don't get some "super-seniority" deal that the USA guys got in their J4J deal, and as long as some of the practical issues as addressed (protection for the Comair pilot group against getting worked to death when recalls begin and we lose a chunk of furloughed pilots en masse). I have furloughed friends at UAL, Delta, AA, and US Airways and I'd love to see them find a place to work while they wait it out.
Flying Sig, my point was that since the DALPA MEC was asking for preferential hiring, that means that any furloughed Delta guy gets head of the line priviledges here, and they as a group get first crack at all vacancies.
This isn't the first time that one of the MEC's has gone to the other and initiated a discussion about placing one pilot group's pilots on the other's list. The previous times however, it was the Comair pilot group approaching the Delta pilot group. The "group memory" here of the Delta MEC's response (i.e. submit a resume like anyone else and those of you who are qualified might get hired), whether or not that recollection is 100% accurate, has left some of the folks at Comair with a less than generous spirit now that the shoe is on the other foot.
My previous post was intended to point out that there is a lot of history at work here and that the DALPA phone message did not accurately reflect what transpired at the meeting. My report of the meeting is second-hand, so I can only say that the Comair MEC did not say "No" out of hand. It was more like a "Okay, besides the warm fuzzy feeling it will provide, what's in it for us? How about that seniority list combination issue we brought up with you guys before"? The Delta guys were the ones who said "No".
If their telephone message had reflected reality and hadn't been like my brother who used to tell my Mom that I'd hit him, without revealing that he'd hit me first, I probably wouldn't have even posted. It's self-serving and intended to unfairly deflect the dissatisfaction of the Delta membership from their MEC to the Comair pilot group.
As far as I'm concerned, I could care less how many furloughees get hired here or from what airline as long as they don't get some "super-seniority" deal that the USA guys got in their J4J deal, and as long as some of the practical issues as addressed (protection for the Comair pilot group against getting worked to death when recalls begin and we lose a chunk of furloughed pilots en masse). I have furloughed friends at UAL, Delta, AA, and US Airways and I'd love to see them find a place to work while they wait it out.
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
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- 854
skiddriver said:
Skid,
Actually it means that DAL furloughs go to the bottom of the list but are allowed to keep their DAL seniority number. It has nothing to do with list integration.
I think you are confusing it with a proposal that has been authored by an ASA pilot, which has not even been formally introduced at the LEC level at this point.
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
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skiddriver
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Metrosheriff,
Howdy. Actually, I do understand that, I was just probably unclear. I'll try one more time.
First, I've heard about the ASA pilot's proposal, but wasn't interested enough to go read it (for reasons I'll address below).
My understanding from my second-hand crew facility intel is that at the subject recent meeting the Delta MEC asked for Comair pilot group support for preferential hiring of Delta furloughees at Comair. That would mean that any Delta furloughee would have priority for any open FO slot at Comair, at the bottom of the seniority list. Also, this was supposedly preference for hiring, not just preference for an interview.
List integration was supposedly a Comair request when purchased by Delta, and also subsequently. I'm told it never got past the initial proposal stage before being rebuffed by DALPA. This occurred before my time and I can't say I was surprised to hear it was denied (having witnessed a couple of my friends go to town over the AA/TWA list integration). However, some of old-timers here seem to recollect that the rebuff was tendered along with some comment about the lack of suitability and qualifications of the Comair pilot group in general, and that perception is driving some of the rancor you might see expressed.
This had led to the unfortunate conclusion among some of the folks I've spoken with here that "They (Delta) don't think we're good enough for their airline, but they want us to absorb their furloughees without question, Bahhh!!!"
I won't reiterate my feelings about Comair hiring any furloughee (not that anyone here cares what I say about it) except to say I see no harm in it if the practical matters are taken care of and it doesn't put my job at risk now or when mainline recalls begin.
In the midst of their biggest hiring frenzy, Delta wouldn't have touched me with a 10 foot pole due to my helo stain, and I never came to Comair with any intention of doing anything other than to finish out the 16 years I have left before I turn into a pumpkin doing something I enjoy at a company where I can make enough money to feed my family and buy the occasional shiny item.
I didn't come here to go to Delta, and conversely I didn't come here to become a furlough buffer for another pilot group.
And BTW, for all those who seem fascinated with what a small jet pilot makes, since I have my contract right next to me, a Comair CRJ 70 Captain goes over $80 an hour at year 9, going to year 6 by 2005. 50 seat Captains go over $80 at year 12, going to year 9 by 2005.
Howdy. Actually, I do understand that, I was just probably unclear. I'll try one more time.
First, I've heard about the ASA pilot's proposal, but wasn't interested enough to go read it (for reasons I'll address below).
My understanding from my second-hand crew facility intel is that at the subject recent meeting the Delta MEC asked for Comair pilot group support for preferential hiring of Delta furloughees at Comair. That would mean that any Delta furloughee would have priority for any open FO slot at Comair, at the bottom of the seniority list. Also, this was supposedly preference for hiring, not just preference for an interview.
List integration was supposedly a Comair request when purchased by Delta, and also subsequently. I'm told it never got past the initial proposal stage before being rebuffed by DALPA. This occurred before my time and I can't say I was surprised to hear it was denied (having witnessed a couple of my friends go to town over the AA/TWA list integration). However, some of old-timers here seem to recollect that the rebuff was tendered along with some comment about the lack of suitability and qualifications of the Comair pilot group in general, and that perception is driving some of the rancor you might see expressed.
This had led to the unfortunate conclusion among some of the folks I've spoken with here that "They (Delta) don't think we're good enough for their airline, but they want us to absorb their furloughees without question, Bahhh!!!"
I won't reiterate my feelings about Comair hiring any furloughee (not that anyone here cares what I say about it) except to say I see no harm in it if the practical matters are taken care of and it doesn't put my job at risk now or when mainline recalls begin.
In the midst of their biggest hiring frenzy, Delta wouldn't have touched me with a 10 foot pole due to my helo stain, and I never came to Comair with any intention of doing anything other than to finish out the 16 years I have left before I turn into a pumpkin doing something I enjoy at a company where I can make enough money to feed my family and buy the occasional shiny item.
I didn't come here to go to Delta, and conversely I didn't come here to become a furlough buffer for another pilot group.
And BTW, for all those who seem fascinated with what a small jet pilot makes, since I have my contract right next to me, a Comair CRJ 70 Captain goes over $80 an hour at year 9, going to year 6 by 2005. 50 seat Captains go over $80 at year 12, going to year 9 by 2005.
Last edited:
goldentrout
Well-known member
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- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 116
One list by DOH solves all these problems.
Everyone just flows up/down/out the bottom by DOH.
The only scope should be that if it's a DAL flight, it's flown by a DAL pilot.
Let management figure out which plane makes the most money on which route.
Let's us figure out how to get the maximum number of jobs for the maximum # of pilots, while still allowing the company to make a profit.
Yes, there would have to be fences for a few years to protect some of the more senior pilots on both lists, and to prevent a huge training cost for the company.
But starting tomorrow, all pilots at Comair/ASA/DAL should have a DAL seniority number by DOH, and all new hires at Comair/ASA/DAL start at the bottom of the the list with an RJ or whatever they can bid for according to their seniority.
Someone's got to have the vision to break out of the ALPA paradigm and find a viable solution to the industry and pilots' woes.
How about someone start a thread of solutions...instead of a complaining threads.
PS I've already done that if you look at some of my previous posts/threads.
So let's all start by doing some research:
http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/national/will/story/5483877p-6467349c.html
and
http://www.msnbc.com/news/651118.asp?0dm=C2EHB
and
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021205/ap_on_bi_ge/united_fallout_3
and
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/dowjones/20021204/bs_dowjones/200212041805000833
Folks, this analyst says it all very clearly,
"The market is telling the airlines how much revenue they can earn," Levine said. "They either get their costs down below that level, or they die."
and the ATSB agrees talking about UAL
"The board believes that the business plan submitted by the company is not financially sound," wrote ATSB director Daniel Montgomery in a letter to the airline.
Like it or not, this is the reality of the current major airline business model.
It's time to stop the fighting and start to figure out how to save the industry (and most of our jobs)...since ALPA obviously isn't going to do it for us, unless by some miracle there's some huge leadership/paradigm change at the national union level.
Everyone just flows up/down/out the bottom by DOH.
The only scope should be that if it's a DAL flight, it's flown by a DAL pilot.
Let management figure out which plane makes the most money on which route.
Let's us figure out how to get the maximum number of jobs for the maximum # of pilots, while still allowing the company to make a profit.
Yes, there would have to be fences for a few years to protect some of the more senior pilots on both lists, and to prevent a huge training cost for the company.
But starting tomorrow, all pilots at Comair/ASA/DAL should have a DAL seniority number by DOH, and all new hires at Comair/ASA/DAL start at the bottom of the the list with an RJ or whatever they can bid for according to their seniority.
Someone's got to have the vision to break out of the ALPA paradigm and find a viable solution to the industry and pilots' woes.
How about someone start a thread of solutions...instead of a complaining threads.
PS I've already done that if you look at some of my previous posts/threads.
So let's all start by doing some research:
http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/national/will/story/5483877p-6467349c.html
and
http://www.msnbc.com/news/651118.asp?0dm=C2EHB
and
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021205/ap_on_bi_ge/united_fallout_3
and
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/dowjones/20021204/bs_dowjones/200212041805000833
Folks, this analyst says it all very clearly,
"The market is telling the airlines how much revenue they can earn," Levine said. "They either get their costs down below that level, or they die."
and the ATSB agrees talking about UAL
"The board believes that the business plan submitted by the company is not financially sound," wrote ATSB director Daniel Montgomery in a letter to the airline.
Like it or not, this is the reality of the current major airline business model.
It's time to stop the fighting and start to figure out how to save the industry (and most of our jobs)...since ALPA obviously isn't going to do it for us, unless by some miracle there's some huge leadership/paradigm change at the national union level.
FlyDeltasJets
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goldentrout
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NYRanger
Again as I said before...all you guys do is ridicule my ideas...yet I see nothing about your ideas of how to improve the situation, or get guys off furlough, or provide job stability, etc.
With the current ALPA leadership and strategy, with the current "in-denial/it doesn't matter if it doesn't affect me" attitude of the major airline pilots, with the current amount of power held by the major airline employee unions, you are right...it's a dream.
However, after UAL and US Air come out of bankruptcy, after the others restructure routes and aircraft types, after they get concessions from all their employee groups, after there are hundreds and hundreds more RJs flying all over this country, after parking hundreds of Fokker 100/DC-9/727/L-10-11/747s, after 70 and 90 seat RJs flown by ASA/Comair/ACA/Air Wisconsin start replacing 737/DC-9/Fokker 100/727s formerly flown by mainline pilots, after the pilot lists at Comair/ASA/ACA/Air Whisky/AirTran/JetBlue/SWA swell by hundreds, maybe thousands of pilots, after 3-5 years many of the pilots/mechanics/FAs on furlough are still on furlough...
then maybe, just maybe, the "I'm owed a job at whatever pay I think I'm worth" mentality will be broken.
Once that's broken, then we can start anew with contracts/compensation that are inline with revenue.
We can either negotiate with managment in good faith to try and have some control over the outcome...or we can have it handed to us by the unbiased, and therefore uncaring, laws of supply and demand
The outcome will be the same...the question is only how painful will it be if we don't participate in the reshaping of the industry.
Again as I said before...all you guys do is ridicule my ideas...yet I see nothing about your ideas of how to improve the situation, or get guys off furlough, or provide job stability, etc.
With the current ALPA leadership and strategy, with the current "in-denial/it doesn't matter if it doesn't affect me" attitude of the major airline pilots, with the current amount of power held by the major airline employee unions, you are right...it's a dream.
However, after UAL and US Air come out of bankruptcy, after the others restructure routes and aircraft types, after they get concessions from all their employee groups, after there are hundreds and hundreds more RJs flying all over this country, after parking hundreds of Fokker 100/DC-9/727/L-10-11/747s, after 70 and 90 seat RJs flown by ASA/Comair/ACA/Air Wisconsin start replacing 737/DC-9/Fokker 100/727s formerly flown by mainline pilots, after the pilot lists at Comair/ASA/ACA/Air Whisky/AirTran/JetBlue/SWA swell by hundreds, maybe thousands of pilots, after 3-5 years many of the pilots/mechanics/FAs on furlough are still on furlough...
then maybe, just maybe, the "I'm owed a job at whatever pay I think I'm worth" mentality will be broken.
Once that's broken, then we can start anew with contracts/compensation that are inline with revenue.
We can either negotiate with managment in good faith to try and have some control over the outcome...or we can have it handed to us by the unbiased, and therefore uncaring, laws of supply and demand
The outcome will be the same...the question is only how painful will it be if we don't participate in the reshaping of the industry.
Last edited:
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
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- 854
goldentrout said:
Trout,
With all due respect, the idea of DOH is ridiculous.
The proposal being worked on by a group of ASA pilots my gain some support once tweaked into shape.
DOH integration at Delta is a pipe-dream. The sooner it is seen by its supporters for what it is (a back door seniority pillage) and subsequently abandoned, the sooner we may build a concensus on a workable strategy and begin to march forward.
AFELLOWAVIATOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2002
- Posts
- 411
Just for the record, I am looking at my Comair contract, and in two years at my 10th anniversey, I will be making 95.73 per hour..
As for the Delta hiring. This goes way, way beyond just hiring them. The delta mec had a chance when we were bought to fight for one list, in fact, alpa even has a policy in place to take care of buy outs. Since we fly smaller jets then they do, they decided not to honor the policy. Now, 1000 furloughs later, ther mec, recognizing that they royally screwed their pilots, goes to my mec and makes demands. Our mec says ok, but what about the predatory scope issues, the ones that artifically restrict our pilots careers? The delta mec said they refused to discuss it, and that was the end of the meeting. It is my mec's responsibility to act in the interest of our pilots, not DELTA'S. It is my mec's responsibility to fight career limiting things like scope within the brand name, and they should use all available means to do so.
Another issue is representation. We only have 1500 pilots. If we hire a few hundred delta pilots, who are there only to bide there time until they get recalled, and we have to vote on an issue that the delta pilot group would appose, because they are delta pilots, how do you think they would vote? They would have no interest in raising the bar for us, in fact, just the opposite.
What if they do not get through probation for what ever reason? Would they then be rehired by delta one day? Since delta owns us, they are technically just transfering, which is not covered in our contract.
A lot of problems in this and since there mec is hell bent on our destruction, I do not ever see them and us seeing eye to eye.
As for the Delta hiring. This goes way, way beyond just hiring them. The delta mec had a chance when we were bought to fight for one list, in fact, alpa even has a policy in place to take care of buy outs. Since we fly smaller jets then they do, they decided not to honor the policy. Now, 1000 furloughs later, ther mec, recognizing that they royally screwed their pilots, goes to my mec and makes demands. Our mec says ok, but what about the predatory scope issues, the ones that artifically restrict our pilots careers? The delta mec said they refused to discuss it, and that was the end of the meeting. It is my mec's responsibility to act in the interest of our pilots, not DELTA'S. It is my mec's responsibility to fight career limiting things like scope within the brand name, and they should use all available means to do so.
Another issue is representation. We only have 1500 pilots. If we hire a few hundred delta pilots, who are there only to bide there time until they get recalled, and we have to vote on an issue that the delta pilot group would appose, because they are delta pilots, how do you think they would vote? They would have no interest in raising the bar for us, in fact, just the opposite.
What if they do not get through probation for what ever reason? Would they then be rehired by delta one day? Since delta owns us, they are technically just transfering, which is not covered in our contract.
A lot of problems in this and since there mec is hell bent on our destruction, I do not ever see them and us seeing eye to eye.
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