DAL MEC meets Comair MEC

[MetroSheriff]

Well this thread certainly took off while I was out on that trip...

Flying Sig, my point was that since the DALPA MEC was asking for preferential hiring, that means that any furloughed Delta guy gets head of the line priviledges here, and they as a group get first crack at all vacancies.

Skid,

Actually it means that DAL furloughs go to the bottom of the list but are allowed to keep their DAL seniority number. It has nothing to do with list integration.

I think you are confusing it with a proposal that has been authored by an ASA pilot, which has not even been formally introduced at the LEC level at this point.

 

[MetroSheriff]

I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but if your saying that Captains at regionals do not make 80/hr then your mistaken.

With the exception of 15+ (ball park) year Captains, he is correct. Let's be honest. You can make 80/hr, but not for MANY years.

 

[skiddriver]

Metrosheriff,

Howdy. Actually, I do understand that, I was just probably unclear. I'll try one more time.

First, I've heard about the ASA pilot's proposal, but wasn't interested enough to go read it (for reasons I'll address below).

My understanding from my second-hand crew facility intel is that at the subject recent meeting the Delta MEC asked for Comair pilot group support for preferential hiring of Delta furloughees at Comair. That would mean that any Delta furloughee would have priority for any open FO slot at Comair, at the bottom of the seniority list. Also, this was supposedly preference for hiring, not just preference for an interview.

List integration was supposedly a Comair request when purchased by Delta, and also subsequently. I'm told it never got past the initial proposal stage before being rebuffed by DALPA. This occurred before my time and I can't say I was surprised to hear it was denied (having witnessed a couple of my friends go to town over the AA/TWA list integration). However, some of old-timers here seem to recollect that the rebuff was tendered along with some comment about the lack of suitability and qualifications of the Comair pilot group in general, and that perception is driving some of the rancor you might see expressed.

This had led to the unfortunate conclusion among some of the folks I've spoken with here that "They (Delta) don't think we're good enough for their airline, but they want us to absorb their furloughees without question, Bahhh!!!"

I won't reiterate my feelings about Comair hiring any furloughee (not that anyone here cares what I say about it) except to say I see no harm in it if the practical matters are taken care of and it doesn't put my job at risk now or when mainline recalls begin.

In the midst of their biggest hiring frenzy, Delta wouldn't have touched me with a 10 foot pole due to my helo stain, and I never came to Comair with any intention of doing anything other than to finish out the 16 years I have left before I turn into a pumpkin doing something I enjoy at a company where I can make enough money to feed my family and buy the occasional shiny item.

I didn't come here to go to Delta, and conversely I didn't come here to become a furlough buffer for another pilot group.

And BTW, for all those who seem fascinated with what a small jet pilot makes, since I have my contract right next to me, a Comair CRJ 70 Captain goes over $80 an hour at year 9, going to year 6 by 2005. 50 seat Captains go over $80 at year 12, going to year 9 by 2005.

 

[goldentrout]

One list by DOH solves all these problems.

Everyone just flows up/down/out the bottom by DOH.

The only scope should be that if it's a DAL flight, it's flown by a DAL pilot.

Let management figure out which plane makes the most money on which route.

Let's us figure out how to get the maximum number of jobs for the maximum # of pilots, while still allowing the company to make a profit.

Yes, there would have to be fences for a few years to protect some of the more senior pilots on both lists, and to prevent a huge training cost for the company.

But starting tomorrow, all pilots at Comair/ASA/DAL should have a DAL seniority number by DOH, and all new hires at Comair/ASA/DAL start at the bottom of the the list with an RJ or whatever they can bid for according to their seniority.

Someone's got to have the vision to break out of the ALPA paradigm and find a viable solution to the industry and pilots' woes.

How about someone start a thread of solutions...instead of a complaining threads.

PS I've already done that if you look at some of my previous posts/threads.

So let's all start by doing some research:


http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/national/will/story/5483877p-6467349c.html

and

http://www.msnbc.com/news/651118.asp?0dm=C2EHB

and

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021205/ap_on_bi_ge/united_fallout_3

and

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/dowjones/20021204/bs_dowjones/200212041805000833


Folks, this analyst says it all very clearly,

"The market is telling the airlines how much revenue they can earn," Levine said. "They either get their costs down below that level, or they die."

and the ATSB agrees talking about UAL

"The board believes that the business plan submitted by the company is not financially sound," wrote ATSB director Daniel Montgomery in a letter to the airline.

Like it or not, this is the reality of the current major airline business model.

It's time to stop the fighting and start to figure out how to save the industry (and most of our jobs)...since ALPA obviously isn't going to do it for us, unless by some miracle there's some huge leadership/paradigm change at the national union level.

 

[NYRANGERS]

One list by DOH solves all these problems.

Everyone just flows up/down/out the bottom by DOH.



You sir, are dreaming.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

DOH!!!????

At Delta???!!!


Please tell me you are kidding, sometimes sarcasm doesn't come through well on these boards. I'll just assume you were making a joke.

It's a pointless debate anyway, we don't have a chance in heck of getting mgt to merge the lists.

 

[goldentrout]

NYRanger

Again as I said before...all you guys do is ridicule my ideas...yet I see nothing about your ideas of how to improve the situation, or get guys off furlough, or provide job stability, etc.

With the current ALPA leadership and strategy, with the current "in-denial/it doesn't matter if it doesn't affect me" attitude of the major airline pilots, with the current amount of power held by the major airline employee unions, you are right...it's a dream.

However, after UAL and US Air come out of bankruptcy, after the others restructure routes and aircraft types, after they get concessions from all their employee groups, after there are hundreds and hundreds more RJs flying all over this country, after parking hundreds of Fokker 100/DC-9/727/L-10-11/747s, after 70 and 90 seat RJs flown by ASA/Comair/ACA/Air Wisconsin start replacing 737/DC-9/Fokker 100/727s formerly flown by mainline pilots, after the pilot lists at Comair/ASA/ACA/Air Whisky/AirTran/JetBlue/SWA swell by hundreds, maybe thousands of pilots, after 3-5 years many of the pilots/mechanics/FAs on furlough are still on furlough...

then maybe, just maybe, the "I'm owed a job at whatever pay I think I'm worth" mentality will be broken.

Once that's broken, then we can start anew with contracts/compensation that are inline with revenue.

We can either negotiate with managment in good faith to try and have some control over the outcome...or we can have it handed to us by the unbiased, and therefore uncaring, laws of supply and demand

The outcome will be the same...the question is only how painful will it be if we don't participate in the reshaping of the industry.

 

[MetroSheriff]

NYRanger

Again as I said before...all you guys do is ridicule my ideas...

Trout,

With all due respect, the idea of DOH is ridiculous.

The proposal being worked on by a group of ASA pilots my gain some support once tweaked into shape.

DOH integration at Delta is a pipe-dream. The sooner it is seen by its supporters for what it is (a back door seniority pillage) and subsequently abandoned, the sooner we may build a concensus on a workable strategy and begin to march forward.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Just for the record, I am looking at my Comair contract, and in two years at my 10th anniversey, I will be making 95.73 per hour..

As for the Delta hiring. This goes way, way beyond just hiring them. The delta mec had a chance when we were bought to fight for one list, in fact, alpa even has a policy in place to take care of buy outs. Since we fly smaller jets then they do, they decided not to honor the policy. Now, 1000 furloughs later, ther mec, recognizing that they royally screwed their pilots, goes to my mec and makes demands. Our mec says ok, but what about the predatory scope issues, the ones that artifically restrict our pilots careers? The delta mec said they refused to discuss it, and that was the end of the meeting. It is my mec's responsibility to act in the interest of our pilots, not DELTA'S. It is my mec's responsibility to fight career limiting things like scope within the brand name, and they should use all available means to do so.

Another issue is representation. We only have 1500 pilots. If we hire a few hundred delta pilots, who are there only to bide there time until they get recalled, and we have to vote on an issue that the delta pilot group would appose, because they are delta pilots, how do you think they would vote? They would have no interest in raising the bar for us, in fact, just the opposite.
What if they do not get through probation for what ever reason? Would they then be rehired by delta one day? Since delta owns us, they are technically just transfering, which is not covered in our contract.

A lot of problems in this and since there mec is hell bent on our destruction, I do not ever see them and us seeing eye to eye.

 

[filejw]

Trout..If one list was implemented ALPA has a merger policy that would be used.Usually you end up in arbitration.

 

[j41driver]

Just for the record, I am looking at my Comair contract, and in two years at my 10th anniversey, I will be making 95.73 per hour.

Are you the "RRRRAARRRAAAAARRRAAARRARARARARA" guy from the ALPA boards?

 

[rjcap]

Everyone just flows up/down/out the bottom by DOH.

You sir, are dreaming.

You sir, are unemployed.

 

[rjcap]

The proposal being worked on by a group of ASA pilots my gain some support once tweaked into shape.

Which proposal is that ??

there are a couple floating around and the one I saw is dead on arrival !!

 

[B737G]

rjcap, I am sure NYRANGER would rather be furloughed than have your job. As someone who is close to being furloughed, I had rather have a seniority number with DAL, not their commuter, than work where you work. Good luck to you.

 

[rjcap]

rjcap, I am sure NYRANGER would rather be furloughed than have your job. As someone who is close to being furloughed, I had rather have a seniority number with DAL, not their commuter, than work where you work. Good luck to you.

There in lies the question.

What is a seniority number at a major airline worth if that seniority number is furloughed for an undetermined amount of time???


Regarding the rest of your comment, I guess it depends on how you plan on paying your bills.

 

[B737G]

rjcap, considering myself and 25% of DAL pilots have graduate degrees, paying bills will not be a problem. DAL furloughees will be back and will be in a position you commuter pilots will never quite grasp. Enjoy the lifestyle you have and the furloughed guys will do just fine.

 

[rjcap]

DAL furloughees will be back and will be in a position you commuter pilots will never quite grasp

And you wonder why the Comair guys want nothing to do with your furloughed pilots !!

I'll let you have the last word 737G.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

You sir, are unemployed.

I will never cease to be amazed at the amount of pilots around who seem to take pleasure in the misfortune of others.

 

[rjcap]

I will never cease to be amazed at the amount of pilots around who seem to take pleasure in the misfortune of others.

No pleasure taken on my part. If you had read the entire post you would have interpreted my comment as a rebuff to the arrogant comment put forth by NYRANGER.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Rj,

I did read the whole post. I still think your comment was cruel and uncalled for. I know that I would not have responded in such a fashion.



For the record, I agree with NY that anyone suggesting DOH is dreaming. I really don't see that opinion as being arrogant, but perhaps it is.

Anyway, I'm trying not to get too involved lately, so I'll bow out. Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement, it just sounded pretty harsh to me.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Rj,

....your comment was cruel and uncalled for. I know that I would not have responded in such a fashion.

For the record, I agree with NY that anyone suggesting DOH is dreaming. I really don't see that opinion as being arrogant, but perhaps it is.

FDJ;

When argument fails for you (which is frequent) you rely on personal attack. Condescension, arrogance and self-pity are not effective discussion tactics.

I believe the general point that rjcap was making to NYRANGERS (and FDJ and B737G) was:

"If you guys are so smug, and dismissive of an RJ pilot's position in the world and you are so sure your MEC has adopted the correct position for your pilot group, then why are all 3 of you current or soon-to-be furloughees?"

He has an excellent point. One should measure the effectiveness of an organization by its results. As evidenced by its past and current action, it is clear that your MEC is more interested in the job security of pilots at the senior end of the list than those at the bottom.

 

[rjcap]

"If you guys are so smug, and dismissive of an RJ pilot's position in the world and you are so sure your MEC has adopted the correct position for your pilot group, then why are all 3 of you current or soon-to-be furloughees?"

Thankyou Dave.

That was pretty much my intent.

 

[goldentrout]

Gents

Much like Martin Luther King, I have a DOH dream.

Certainly, DAL and Comair and ASA are not going, tomorrow, or next year, or even in five years, do a DOH list integration.

However...ALPA and management could begin working in that direction by implementing a policy that says any pilot hired to fly a plane owned by DAL or one of it's wholly owned subsidies, starts in an RJ and is junior to every other piot on the ASA/COMAIR/DAL list.

Eventually, and yes it would take years, you would have one list...people bidding for 50 seat RJs right along with 777s...purely by DOH...no scope...no RJDC...just up/down/in/out by DOH.

Then we all could get back to talking about flying instead of hashing out who should fly what plane when and for how much.

Imagine all flights at DAL or any brand name for that matter being flown by a pilot on one list...same training standards...same recruitment standards...same wings on their chest. Whether it's a 32 seat Dornier, or a 777, every pilot has met the same standard.

Imagine the savings to managment in not having to have the personnel to manage 3 separate lists...not having to deal with scope...free to buy the right planes for the right market at the right time to maximize revenue.

No scope...no RJDC...no outsourcing...no whip sawing one group against the other...pilots and management working together to figure out how to do what's best for the long term viability of the company...which in turn provides growth and job security for the employee groups.

Yes, I have a dream...however, I don't see the current major airline MECs and ALPA national, or any of the employee unions for that matter, going down this road anytime soon. They're still stuck in the "max pay 'til the last day" paradigm, which has already helped ruin two airlines and ain't helping the other ones much either. (again I say "helped," not totally responsible for)

Although...one must not let mangaement off the hook too easily. All these managers who agreed to these employee contracts obviously didn't have a very sound business plan. They should of had the guts to say, "fine, you want put to the whole company in a situation where an economic downturn risks bankrupting the company...the answer is NO...because we refuse to preside over a situation where your greed puts the fiscal viability of our company, and the security of thousands and thousands of jobs in jeopardy. We'll go bankrupt before we let you do that."

That's essentially what the ATSB and the major banks around this country are telling major airline managers now...your business plans are unsound...we're not giving you a dime until you show us a plan that

a. does not rely on the unsustainable economic boom of the late 90's as your projected revenue model
b. takes into account the ever increasing market share/competition from low cost carriers.

If these managers had made these decisions on their own, they might not be facing the situations being forced upon them today.

If the major airline MECs had made these decisons on their own, they might not be facing the situations being forced upon them today.

It amazes me how no one...management nor the unions...will take any responsiblilty for how we got into this mess and say "hmmm...how did we get here, and how do we change to never get here again?"

Instead, it's finger pointing and blaming. That's the worst kind of leadership.

 

[goldentrout]

Excerpts from [email protected]

UAL bankrupt

"While the bankruptcy filing likely will have no immediate effect on passengers, it will come at a steep price for the 83,000 employees who own 55 percent of the company. A bankruptcy court judge is almost certain to order wage and job cuts and could dissolve the employee stock ownership plan."

"The carrier’s stock, which reached $100 a share in 1997, closed at 93 cents Friday on the New York Stock Exchange."

"On pace to lose an industry-record $2.5 billion this year, United had pinned its last hopes of avoiding bankruptcy on getting federal backing for $1.8 billion of a $2 billion loan that banks wouldn’t otherwise provide. But the Air Transportation Stabilization Board, created last year to help the airline industry recover after Sept. 11, rejected United’s request on Wednesday.

The linchpin to United’s proposal was $5.2 billion in labor cutbacks by 2008, but the three-member federal panel said the airline’s business plan was financially unsound and a loan guarantee would have risked U.S. taxpayers picking up the tab."

"United has struggled even more than other airlines during the industry’s worst-ever slump. The carrier already had lost about $1 billion since mid-2000 by the time of the attacks because of labor turmoil, the industry’s highest costs and several failed strategies, including a costly and time-consuming bid to acquire US Airways—itself now in Chapter 11 bankruptcy."

"United cut service and laid off nearly 20,000 workers after the terrorist attacks, but it hasn’t come close to making up for revenue lost from the drop-off in business travel."

"United’s filing dwarfs all other airline bankruptcies. The previous largest was by Continental Airlines in 1990. United listed almost $25.4 billion in assets as of Sept. 30 -- more than twice Continental’s when it filed.

It also is one of the 10 largest bankruptcies in U.S. history—a list topped by the recent failures WorldCom and Enron. It is the 11th time a major U.S. airline has filed for bankruptcy since deregulation in 1978, including TWA three times."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what ALPA and the International Machinists Union and the AFL/CIO has done for the UAL pilots/mechanics/FAs?????????

Results matter folks...not a bunch of union propaganda about "brotherhood...solidarity...you deserve more...and more...and more...managment is screwing you, and we're here to save you."

After seeing what is transpiring at UAL, I don't see how any of you can dispute what I say anymore that

"ALPA's and the other unions' financial strategies have significantly contributed to the demise of UAL and US Air...and possibly more to come."

Something's got to give...and instead of us controlling, at least in part, our destinies, our greed has put our fate in the hands of the federal judiciary system.

BOHICA! (Bend Over, Here It Comes Again)

The question is just...who's next?

 

[abenaki]

Instead of the furloughed DAL pilots jumping all over the Comair guys re' this issue, why don't they put their efforts into getting their "brothers" at DAL mainline to stop picking up open time forcing the company to recall some of its pilots? That IS what's happening over there isn't it and why more pilots are on furlough than necessary?

 

[goldentrout]

Amen Abenaki!

Finally someone with a proposal to make things better, rather than complaining about the way things ought to be.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Instead of the furloughed DAL pilots jumping all over the Comair guys re' this issue, why don't they put their efforts into getting their "brothers" at DAL mainline to stop picking up open time forcing the company to recall some of its pilots? That IS what's happening over there isn't it and why more pilots are on furlough than necessary?

It is amazing how things have changed in a short period of time. Two years ago, back in the winter of 2000/2001, as part of DALPA's negotiation tactics leading up to C2K, most refused to pick-up open time because they all supposedly wanted "more free time with the family."

Too bad those who still have jobs don't feel as strongly about the furloughees today as they did about the United Plus rally cry back then.

The irony is that those who pushed hardest for United Plus were the most junior on the list and are now the ones left standing when the music has stopped.

 

[Freight Dog]

Someone still didn't reply to me... what's wrong with hiring furloughed mainline pilots and have them start at the bottom of CMR seniority list?

 

[skiddriver]

Freight Dog,

Well, I think you can get the gist of some of the objections if you really read the previous posts, but to make it easy for you...

You'll get a variety of opinions if you quiz individual pilots, some would say that it doesn't matter as long as the practical matters were attended to. Those would include protection for the Comair pilot group in case a sizeable group of furloughees were hired, when recalls started. Losing a chunk of folks out the pilot group in a short period of time can and will cause a reduction in the ability to service runs, and could eventually result in the loss of markets. Additionally, unless some there is some change to the status quo, the success and futures of the Delta and DCI pilot groups seem diametrically opposed. Including Delta pilots in the voting body of the Comair pilot group has the potential to threaten the long term strength of the group. I'm sure there are others, but being relatively new here, I couldn't rattle them off. At the risk of getting blackjacked when I report for my next trip, I'll say that I have enough furloughed friends and associates (Marine Corps types) across the industry at AA, UAL, USAir and Delta, that I would be in favor of it, if proper protections were in place.

However, the folks who have been here for a while have strong and bitter memories (or at least perceptions) of the Delta MEC slapping them in the face over Comair proposals for one list. They talk here about responses that included comments questioning the qualifications of the Comair pilot group, assertions that there were no ties between the two pilot groups, and a strong recommendation that if any Comair pilot wanted to fly for Delta, they'd just have to get in line with everyone else who sent in a resume.

That is on top of the perception of the Comair pilot group in general, that the Delta MEC has tried to strangle growth at this airline by negotiating limits into the Delta pilot group contract on what flying can be done at Comair.

It should have been no surprise that the Comair MEC would try to address those issues with the Delta MEC when they had their meeting, and I propose that the Delta MEC fully expected it. And they didn't ask for the Comair MEC to support hiring any furloughee, it was preferential hiring for Delta furloughees, based on their association under the Delta brand. This from the MEC who had adamantly stated that their was no association between the two pilot groups.

From that perspective, the Delta MEC phone message is misleading, and in my opinion, cynically so. The Delta pilots see Comair hiring and Delta furloughing. They ask (and I'd ask too) what the MEC is doing about it. The MEC comes to Comair and asks for preferential hiring for the Delta furloughees with full knowledge of the aforementioned issues. Will they discuss them as part of the proposal? No. Fair enough, but then they put out a message to their membership that implies that Comair rejected the proposal out of hand, which isn't true. I doubt that any Delta furloughee would have objected to the Delta MEC refusal, so why didn't they spell out what really happened in the meeting? I think it was to redirect the frustration of their pilot group from their MEC towards a straw man, namely our pilot group.

I think it's cynical, I think it's dishonest, and I when I read the vitriolic comments from the Delta guys who have posted here essentially saying that any Comair pilot should forget about moving up through the normal hiring process, I have to admit it has also been effective. Machiavellian, but effective.

It's no longer, "Hey MEC, how come DCI is hiring and we're furloughing and what are you going to do about it"? It's now, "Those rotten Comair pilots, they're the root of the problem".

Does this impasse make any sense to you now?

In any case, it's water under the bridge now. The Delta guys will walk away with the certain knowledge that they were scr@wed by the Comair pilots, and the Comair guys will believe that they have received another slap in the face from the Delta MEC, and this problem will never be solved.

I admire your "can't we all just get along" attitude (though it's a bit naive), and I wish the world worked that way, but we're dealing with business issues and emotions at the same time, and that doesn't always work out.

I think it's a shame that the two pilot groups can't forge a better working relationship, but it's going to take some reaching out on both sides, and right now it looks more like the green line in Beirut than the interface of two professional pilot groups.

 

[NYRANGERS]

skiddriver

I am starting to come around to your way of thinking. The groups have a lot of bitterness towards each other.

Delta pilots don't belong at comair, and comair pilots don't belong at Delta.

One other thing, rumor going (I know most are BS) is if DALPA wins the grievance, Delta management will force us to work at comair and ASA. I guess they figure insted of paying us $80,000 a year to stay home, we might as well do some work for them. I am sure that would go over real well with the lifers.

Again the above is second just hand rumor.