DAL CR700 Pay?

[Sinca3]

Hypethetically speaking.....if DAL and DALPA were to agree on bringing the 1060 furloughed pilots back and onto a 70 seat a/c, to later (as attrition brought those furloughies back to mainline) give those a/c to DCI, what would the pay rates be?
Let's say they agree to the same as what is std for us here at DCI. Wouldn't that mean that DALPA compromised the industry pay rates by accepting what is condsidered low just to get there guys jobs? How is this any different than any other carrier, DCI or others, from trying to find the compromise between keeping there jobs (Strike/furlough) and getting the best contract (PAY) as possible.
Don't take this the wrong way...I have friends that are on the street as I type and I would love nothing more than to see them in the air.
If they were to agree on a drastic improvement over the industry std for "regional type" flying it would be great for everyone!
Just some food for thought to see everyones opinions......

Fly safe

 

[acarpe3448]

Kind of Catch 22 is it not. If Dalpa was able to negotiate for our furloughed pilots to fly the 70 seater on even a temporay basis, DCI would scream that we were blocking DCI's growth. If we were able to negotiate Delta Pilot's flying the RJ70 at anything other than DCI rates, the DCI Pilots would scream about not being represented fairly because of two different pay scales for the same piece of equipment. I appreciate the DCI pilots and their desire to set a new standard of pay etc. etc...but Delta Management talking with our pilots about lowering the costs should be just that! After we have adjusted our rates, work rules etc. I hope that DALPA will look to make a compromise with management to bring our pilots back. On the other hand, I think that DCI wants to use these negotiations to carve up the pilots working agreement for the benefit of themselves..**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** the Furloughed Pilots! This once again makes it clear to me that the RJDC is fighting a self centered battle to try to get themselves a Delta Job the easy way!

 

[General Lee]

Well, it is a two edged sword. IF Delta wants more 70 seaters (over the allotted 57 total)--they will have to bargin with us. But, we also have 1060 pilots out thatwant to come back sooner than later. So, I beleive they will negotiate rates that are maybe just a little higher than the Comair rates---but at the "particular year of service." Most of the furloughs would be considered "2nd year FO's or 3rd year Delta pilots" etc. So, they would have 70 seat pay rates above Comair 2nd or 3rd year 70 seat Capt rates---which would still be lower than the 18 year Comair Capts still flying them today. Delta could probably get them for a bargain. I think the FO rate would still be in the $45-$50 an hour range, but the Capt would be around $65-70 an hour---not even close to the near $100 an hour range for the super senior Comair guys. The rates could be negotiated for years of service (1-12 years at Delta)---and probably top out at around $110 an hour for 12 year capts---max. Our V.P. of Flight Ops---Joe Kolshack--said Delta would love to have more of them. IF they want more than 57 total, they will have to go through Dalpa. Now remember, this is all hypothetical, and is subject to being wrong, but this is what I have heard floating around. The main key is to get the furloughs back in the cockpit, and if Comair's huge growth is stunted a bit, oh well, atleast they have been growing.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ReportCanoa]

Attention all ASA and Comair pilots: you work for the Delta MEC.


Get it through your thick skulls!

I work for DALPA, I work for DALPA, I work for DALPA, I work for DAPLA, I work for DALPA, I work for DAPLA, I work for DAPLA... DAPLA works for me, DALPA works for me, DAPLA works for me....

 

[General Lee]

Reportcanoa,

You got it! Oh, but that will change when the RJDC wins, right?
Wrong.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Most of the furloughs would be considered "2nd year FO's or 3rd year Delta pilots" etc. So, they would have 70 seat pay rates above Comair 2nd or 3rd year 70 seat Capt rates---which would still be lower than the 18 year Comair Capts still flying them today. Delta could probably get them for a bargain. I think the FO rate would still be in the $45-$50 an hour range, but the Capt would be around $65-70 an hour---not even close to the near $100 an hour range for the super senior Comair guys. The rates could be negotiated for years of service (1-12 years at Delta)---and probably top out at around $110 an hour for 12 year capts---max.

Sounds like you're saying that you will attempt to become the "lowest bidders" for the 70-seat aircraft? Haven't you read FDJ's pronouncement that he will not join the "race to the bottom"? You guys might want to get your act together.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I have talked at GREAT LENGTH with the Dalpa people about this subject, and the fact is that Delta would not accept this if we were too expensive. Well, we have 1060 pilots out, and Delta is not in the best shape---so you have to compromise. I am sure our people would take the CRJ70 rates right now, and I know Delta would love to have more than 57 of them. But, they would have to go through us, and that is where it stands. If they want more, then our pilots fly them. I am sure we could negotiate for great rates, but the problem is that the furloughed pilots are only in their 2nd or third year with the company-----not 18 year Capt's over at Comair---so they would be paid a little less. But, if we intend to KEEP them for a long time, I am sure we could negotiate better rates than Comair's---but it would be a while until our pilots get there. We would actually cost less than the senior Comair pilots---and that is a reason they might bite. But hey, it all started with Lawson not allowing our guys to go to the BOTTOM of your list and fly your crappiest trips. Thank him for us.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Sinca3]

Compromise!?!?

Now this is why I brought this subject up.
"Main" line pilots give "regional" pilots hell for taking sub std wages, or whatever you want to call it. Now when it is their turn at the bargaining table they are willing to accept less. Why just b/c they have guys on the street, or b/c they aren't planning on keeping the aircraft? Either way it is a slap in regionals faces and a complete contradiction to what main line pilots have been arguing all along!
Am I wrong? Maybe I don't see it from your perspective but I sure think I do. I agree it is very important for DALPA to get these guys off the street and I agree that a compromise will have to be made. Just make sure you don't over compromise or you might look pretty two faced.
Best of luck

 

[Patriot328]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...


if DAL, ASA, and CMR are all flying the same type of aircraft, wouldn't that constitute a single carrier status that the PID they had a while back was trying to get?


Seems kind of hard to argue that "we don't do the same job" if y'all are flying the same airplane.

 

[General Lee]

Patriot328,

Not if there is another subsidiary, or another DCI carrier made up for furloughed pilots. IF the 70 seaters were brought on to the mainline, then yes. That has all been looked into. Apparently AA Eagle is unhappy with their 70 seat CRJ's, and may be looking into selling them in favor of EMB 70 seaters. That would give an instant 20 or 30 70 seaters on the market. A lot of that is just speculation though---but AA is desperate for $$$.


Sinca3,

Yes, I see your point. It would be nice to "up" the wages for 70 seaters. But, I think this is something that Delta would not go for, and we really aren't in the best shape to negotiate. We have to figure out what to do with the 1060, or they will be out for a while. The rates would currently be less for our guys simply because they are only 2nd or 3rd year pilots at Delta. We could not give them rates higher than 18 year ASA or Comair pilots---flying the same aircraft. Do you see the difference? The rates may be a little higher than ASA/Comair 2nd or 3rd year Capts'---and that is where you may gain something. But, it has to be economically sound for Delta, which is probably why we will take some sort of pay cut coming up here at mainline anyways....
The only good things we see coming up are the possible aquisition of UAL's Pacific Asian routes (which could bring back people eventually) and the possible retirement of 400 or so senior Capt's on or around May1st.(It would hurt initially, but then help)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Sinca3]

"The only good things we see coming up are the possible aquisition of UAL's Pacific Asian routes (which could bring back people eventually) "

I don't see the benifit of this? DL is pulling out of Asian markets I thought. Also with the new code share with Northwest and Continental I think those markets are pretty well covered!

"and the possible retirement of 400 or so senior Capt's on or around May1st.(It would hurt initially, but then help)"

Are you saying that there are 400 DL pilots retireing as of May1?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Dance

General says, "We would actually cost less than the senior Comair pilots"

So you're saying that the Delta pilot compensation package would be less expensive than the Comair pilot compensation package if they agreed to similar hourly pay rates?

I'm gonna have to raise the B.S. flag. I'd be willing to bet that the Delta benefits (retirement, healthcare, productivity, you name it...) have a very large dollar value that would make the Delta 70 seat product very expensive.

I'm not saying it wont happen -- I'm just saying that I'll be surprised if it is a cost-competitive product if it does.

 

[surplus1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...


if DAL, ASA, and CMR are all flying the same type of aircraft, wouldn't that constitute a single carrier status that the PID they had a while back was trying to get?

Actually, you are wrong. "Single carrier status" had nothing to do with the PID. The PID had nothing to do with the type of aircraft than anyone flies.

Seems kind of hard to argue that "we don't do the same job" if y'all are flying the same airplane.

Wrong here too. Arguing the absurd is a way of life in ALPA national politics and the Delta MEC is expert at it.

We are not operationally integrated. We are a separate airline. ALPA has already made that determination. That is how ALPA wants it therefore, that is how it should be.

Also, the Delta pilots want no part of us and have made that very clear. There should be no desire and there certainly is no need for us to go where we are not wanted.

The PID is a dead issue so please, just forget it. They got what they wanted, now let them live with it.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

I have talked at GREAT LENGTH with the Dalpa people about this subject, and the fact is that Delta would not accept this if we were too expensive. Well, we have 1060 pilots out, and Delta is not in the best shape---so you have to compromise. I am sure our people would take the CRJ70 rates right now, and I know Delta would love to have more than 57 of them. But, they would have to go through us, and that is where it stands. If they want more, then our pilots fly them. I am sure we could negotiate for great rates, but the problem is that the furloughed pilots are only in their 2nd or third year with the company-----not 18 year Capt's over at Comair---so they would be paid a little less. But, if we intend to KEEP them for a long time, I am sure we could negotiate better rates than Comair's---but it would be a while until our pilots get there. We would actually cost less than the senior Comair pilots---and that is a reason they might bite.

General,

Your desire to help your furloughed buddies is worthy of praise.

If you can get your Company to purchase RJs and place them at the mainline, that's OK with me. However, I think your negotiating strategy is a bit flawed.

Yes, you can "match" our pay rates if you want to and longevity is a factor. You can also undercut them if you want to but, I'm afraid it will take a lot more than that to match our costs (if that's what you're trying to do). You're intentionally (I can't believe you just don't understand) forgetting a few details that are fairly significant.

1. The work rules of your contract are very expensive. You'll have to give those up and match us there too.

2. Your retirement package is extraordinarily expensive. You'll have to give that up.

3. Your medical benefits are more expensive than ours. You'll have to change those.

4. The start up costs of a new subsidiary, with a new certificate is not exactly negligible.

That will do for starters.

If what you are really trying to do is take the 70-seaters from us, and if you wish to continue to cap us at 57, you'll have to do a lot more than the one thing you mentioned, plus the 4 things that I mentioned.

Keep this in mind: If you start a bidding war for those airplanes and our flying, we will join in the bidding war to defend it. Additionally, our bidding will include your flying -- which it never has before. I really don't think that's a good course of action.

I'm all in favor of doing something to help get your furloughed pilots back but, if the only thing you can think of is to do it at our expense, I promise you that will turn out to be a very bad idea for everyone. Be careful what you ask for, you might get it. That's not a threat, but it sure is a promise. Look before you leap.

But hey, it all started with Lawson not allowing our guys to go to the BOTTOM of your list and fly your crappiest trips. Thank him for us.

That's an old lie and a bad lie. Give it up. Lawson started nothing and we both know it. Your effort to coerce us failed, so live with it and quit trying to revive a dead horse by kicking it.

We do have a problem and it's a big one. There are really two options. 1) We set aside the petty crap and try to solve it together. 2) We continue the BS from both sides and make it worse. It's really up to you guys what you want to do.

One final thing. Yes, you have 1060 pilots furloughed. You also have 8000 pilots working. It might be a lot more beneficial for you to find out what the working 8000 (which includes you) are willing to give up to get the 1000 back, than it is to spend your time trying to figure out what you can take from us.

We can work together for the common good if you want to or we can war together until the lowest bidder wins. It's your call.

 

[General Lee]

Sinca3, Furloughed again, and Surplus1,

First of all, all of you have good points.

Sinca3,

The reason we pulled out of Asia before is because our Portland hub was not working well enough for the guys in the "revenue Dept." I was told that most of our flights were full, but the guys in ATL in charge of revenue decided that those MD11's at the time could make more money flying to Europe.... Also, the Japanese businessmen knew about a guy working in the customs area of the PDX airport that loved to harass businessmen. I know that sounds stupid, but I have talked to a lot of ex-MD-11 pilots and they said our name was "soiled" because of a customs agent (not employed by Delta) actually turned away businessmen for not having some frivilous paperwork.(They were approved before they left, but then turned back and returned on the next flight) When the Japanese businessmen told other businesses about their PDX experience--it was all over. After we pulled out of PDX, I am sure that guy was fired. So, if we had the chance to fly 777's from SFO and LAX (with larger Asian populations) to Asia and beyond (We once sold a couple 767ER's to the China---so they like us there), and the economy eventually returns---it will be a good investment. I have asked people in the know and they agree that we are looking at it right now. We are the only ones who can afford it. Yes, our code-share partner NW does have a base at NRT---but we do not receive a dime from them flying anyone over there---that is how the code-share works---you only make what you fly. When things rebound, there will be a lot of money to be made eventually over there. NW does not go to Austrailia or New Zeland either---and CO or Air Mike only goes to Cairns in Northern Australia from Guam.

And yes, over 1000 pilots have INQUIRED about retiring soon, and that means they have notified Flight Operations and requested the paperwork. Apparently between 400-600 senior pilots may leave on May 1st . Why May 1st? Well, if they wait until after their April 15th check, they can use their banked vactation time (maybe 40 or 50 hours..or more) in their FAE or Final Average Earnings figure---and that would help their retirement considerably. IF they leave before that, they still get paid that amount, but it doesn't count towards their retirement. You might ask, "Can Delta afford to lose that many with a lump sum?" Yes, it is covered in the retirement plans. It would hurt by leaving a lot of open pilot slots just before summer. But, I hope they could train quickly. A lot of the retiring pilots believe that we will take pay cuts and that their "Best three years" are already behind them. (Retirement is based off of your best 3 consecutive years, not your last 3)

Furloughedagain,

You are correct about the extra benefits that our guys have compared to your benefits. That would all have to be negotiated.
The key point here is that if Delta wants more than 57 70 seaters, they will have to get the permission of the Delta MEC. The Delta MEC has a problem on his hands, and that is the 1060 pilots out. We also have furloughed flight attendants, who could also come back (at a reduced salary and benefits) to fly the CRJ70's also. There could atleast be an offer made and maybe a two year contract signed (or something like that)---and see who takes it. I bet a lot will, because the alternative is something on the street. I hear AA Eagle might be wanting to dump their CRJ70's.

Surplus1,

You are correct also about the extra expenses of the mainline pilots. Everything could be negotiated. I know I spend a lot of time on the furloughs, and I personally hear about it everyday from my friends. I am also thinking about the 8000 of us left at mainline, and I talk daily with friends in Council 44 in ATL. Something will be worked out with mainline and Delta. I am sure there will be some sort of pay cut, with some productivity changes too. But, we will get something out of those talks---no doubt. We want to help them (and ourselves in return), but we will get something. I don't have the facts and I do not negotiate for DALPA or Delta, so I don't know exactly what will happen. But, I always listen when passing through the ATL CPO, and I pick things up. I stay informed and I talk with pilots on both sides. We are not really competing with you for the 70 seaters. Delta (not Comair or ASA) is spending $1billion this year on new RJ's. That is a fact. You guys are expanding a lot, and we are slowly shrinking. We need to tap in some of those RJ's--especially since Comair snubbed our guys. Where will our 1060 pilots go? And, as you can see I have toned down a lot about Lawson and the Comair policy--(Compared to when I started ranting about it). It still irks me, but that is the way it goes.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[trigeek]

General,
Are you trying to antagonize Surplus et al? Sorry dude, I don't see any j4j anytime soon. Leo and Company didn't sit the Comair strike out losing hundreds of millions of dollars to turn around and fly RJs with our benefits package or anything that resembles it. DCI already represents 54% of Delta system ASMs. Leo has all the DCI carriers overlaping to prevent a shutdown similar to CVG during the strike. While the idea has merit as does "one list", the reality is it won't happen. The concessions for either of those ideas are too costly and the pilot group won't pay for them. Reality sometimes sucks but thats why its called reality.

 

[General Lee]

Trigeek,


Reality? We hold the cards--that is reality. IF Delta wants concessions (which we DON'T HAVE TO GIVE)---we will get 70 seaters for our furloughs. Delta wants relief on the 57 70 seater cap---they like the plane. IF they want more--they will ASK us for some. That is reality. IF DELTA WANTS MORE THAN 57 70 SEATERS----IT HAS TO GO THROUGH DALPA. Can you understand that? They said (Joe Kolshack--the VP of Flt Ops) that. That provision is NOT subject to Force Mejeur. DCI is allowed to fly up to 43% of our flying---not 53% or whatever you said. That is up from 36%. We haven't even negotiated the pay on those planes or the benefits---but I am sure we would be reasonable because the whole game has changed. And we are even looking at some sort of compromise at Mainline---the Dalpa MEC is looking over the books right now. But, IF we do give anything back, we will get something in return. We will get our pilots back in some cockpits as soon as possible. We will have some sort of snapbacks in pay. We hold the cards here. Leo and company said that we do not have to talk about anything until 2005---and negotiations could last two more years. We will look it over and have our analysts look it over too. I just saw an article that stated that Delta expects more losses during a war with Iraq----but it also stated that we increased our fuel hedging to around 77% at 79 cents for this quarter, and 78% for 78 cents next quarter---which will save us big $$$. Regardless---we will try for those 70 seaters---no doubt. Reality sucks, don't it?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

I Dunno

Leo has all the DCI carriers overlaping to prevent a shutdown similar to CVG during the strike. While the idea has merit as does "one list", the reality is it won't happen. The concessions for either of those ideas are too costly and the pilot group won't pay for them. Reality sometimes sucks but thats why its called reality.

If the DALPA MEC tries to get 70, 90, and 110 seat aircraft to be flown on DCI routes over the 57-70 seater cap, then it could work. Instead of giving them DCI super seniority, they could create an additional DCI subsidiary using DCI infrastructures, payrates and compensation packages. The furloughed guys could fly them and more than likely, there would be a need for additional (volunteer) DCI pilots to fill the void. Eventually, Delta would start expanding and all of these pilots would move up from the furloughed list first, (volunteer) assigned DCI second, then ASA/Comair third (into the new subsidiary). The new subsidiary could be used permanently to creat an intermeiate step between DCI and DALPA. Gives DALPA a fallback and DCI hope. Just another opinion.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Absolutely not. I appreciate you trying to think outside the box Tim, but I would rather be furloughed than allow any airplane over 70 seats to be flown by anyone but Delta pilots. Your idea has merit if it were limited to 70 seats, but if mgt wants bigger than that, they know who has to fly them, and under what contract.

 

[ReportCanoa]

You finna see me flossin my -900 serie bombardier up in tha ATL.

So you BETTA stop TRIPPIN!