DAL BK worst option for recovery

[Gulfstream 200]

I just bought some SONG tickets today from FL. (JetBlue was sold out).


$67 to NYC.


Losing 100's of millions a 1/4 and selling seats for $67......eh, what do I know Im just a dumb pilot....

 

[sleepy]

Stick a fork in it General, it's done! Over! History!

Don't you get it General, it really does not matter what you do now, they are going into BK no matter what. Well, at least that is what Neil Boortz said today.

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,


Hahhahahahahah---you are losing it! You really do have a bad attitude--and you do need to leave ASA soon.

As far as Neil Boortz and his ideas---Grinstein and Pulumbo stated otherwise today. I am sure Neil knows more than they do. Grinstein and Pulumbo have more to lose making those types of statements in the media---and they also don't want their new management team disrupted--which would happen with a judge in charge.
This is all nothing more than another "AA squeeze play"--which tries to force labor into accepting cuts. Once there are some cuts, the capital markets will open up the next day--just like with AA--and we will go forward. But, it sounds like you are going backwards at ASA? Grinstein even said you guys won't be flying the future 100 seaters, and the 50 seat markets are getting smaller everytime a LCC gets a new airplane. No wonder you are pi$$ed.


Gulfsteam 200,

My brother bought a Song ticket two weeks ago one way from MCO to LAX for business for $298, and he said only two or three total seats remained. I have been flying full too---and I don't know what the fares were--but that really isn't my job. Maybe after pay cuts are finished the Marketing people will start asking for more so we don't show the same losses. I don't know....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

I just bought some SONG tickets today from FL. (JetBlue was sold out).


$67 to NYC.


Losing 100's of millions a 1/4 and selling seats for $67......eh, what do I know Im just a dumb pilot....

This is the problem. To fill up seats, Delta is charging ID90 prices for tickets. General you can't make money charging "non rev" prices - no matter how full the plane is!

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


I know that. But, I don't know how much each ticket costs---as I said, my brother paid $298 for a one way ticket from MCO to LAX. Are all tickets from MCO to LAX that much? I don't know. Maybe Gulfsteam 200 did it way in advance, maybe he did it on a Tuesday, maybe it was to EWR where we only have two flights a day from MCO, etc....Maybe Delta is using Song to dry up the well for Jetblue--even though they are full....???? I just drive the green and white 757---but I do know that Dalpa will eventually settle this and we will go forward--I have complete confidence in that, and even Grinstein said today that he will avoid Chap 11 if at all possible, and I bet he will. But remember, there is brinksmanship involved in negotiations--and there will be ups and downs---and this is normal. A settlement will be forthcoming eventually---no doubt, and I will have a smaller pay check---no doubt.
Fine.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[On Your Six]

Hey Medflyer,

You have only flown Song once. I have flown it numerous times and I really liked it - it's more comfortable than mainline and most of the competition. Leather seat (kinda form fitting - it feels great), a great TV setup, actually good food (good food for the $7 - I wasn't complaining) and spunky/fun flight attendants. As I recall, even Lowecur was pleasantly surprised by Song (if I am not confusing him with someone else). And by the way, the flights were full each time I flew Song - jam packed.

I have flown both Comair and ASA recently, and the reaction from passengers always seems grim. "Oh no, not one of these munchkin jets again" or "Oooh my God, look how small it is." No wonder AirTran dumped the CRJs in favor of increased utilization of the 717s. Not profitable on LCC routes, not comfortable, and they actually disturb potentially loyal passengers.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

nah. FL-JFK. 6 day notice.

Im not guessing why or questioning DAL's reasons. Im sure its complex..but im traveling for business! I didnt care about the cost! My only stipulation is no RJs. Dont do RJs thanks.

But still, $67.....Joe Idiot in his Denali SUV can just about fill up the tank on $67...

insane.

If I was a DAL pilot worrying about my future Id be pi$$ed!!

either way looking forward to something diffrent, they have TV's right??? I want my $67 bucks worth dammm it!!!!

 

[General Lee]

Gulfsteam 200,


$67 bucks giving 6 days notice? Hmmm. That is a prime route for Jetblue---JFK to FLL---maybe it is more expensive to fly to LGA..?? I think Song was made to give Jetblue a headache---and most of the JFK Song stuff does just that--according to the Song President John Salvaggio. I talked with him personally and he said Song was doing well and giving Jetblue and Neeleman a headache. Whether or not that is true---I don't know.

I think you will really like Song---I personally think the product is better than our mainline's---and a lot of the stuff in Song will be incorporated into Mainline eventually--like the Dish Network TV system. The TVs have live 24 channel Cable channels--no NBC, CBS, etc....(I don't think Jetblue has that either...?) There are also trivia games you can play with other people in your row I believe, and different Song lists with different music I believe. The food they sell is good--a good sandwich costs about $8---which is close to what you may pay at the airport. The stews (or "talent" as they call themselves) are fun and mainly younger. I will be flying Song this weekend, but no FL-JFK runs.(LGA--yes)

When you come back be sure to give us a critique. I think you will like it. I know you said jetblue was full, but I am glad that you are flying Song.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Hey Medflyer,

I have flown both Comair and ASA recently, and the reaction from passengers always seems grim. "Oh no, not one of these munchkin jets again" or "Oooh my God, look how small it is." No wonder AirTran dumped the CRJs in favor of increased utilization of the 717s. Not profitable on LCC routes, not comfortable, and they actually disturb potentially loyal passengers.

I agree that many passengers complain. However why did you or those other passengers fly on those ASA and CMR flights. You didn't book them because of the comfort. Most likely they were the most convenient flights for you and the complaining passengers. If you only have 40-50 complaining passengers, you better use an RJ. If you have 100 complaining passengers then use a 737. If you have 140 complaining passengers then use an MD 80. Don't however use an MD 80 to haul around 40-50 passengers so as to make them happier - you will lose money.

Here are some pesky facts to add to the emotional arguments of the "anti-RJ" crowd.

1. The RJ seats are more roomy than 757 coach seats and more roomy than many MD 80 seats:
Source:

http://www.seatguru.com/

2. Air Tran is not going to replace all the RJ service with 717. They are going to have to stop some of the service that was performed by RJs. MYR is the first victim. The RJ allowed them to fly MYR year round. They used 717s during the peak season and RJs during off peak. Without the RJs, they will only fly to MYR during the peak summer travel period.

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/business/8896369.htm

 

[General Lee]

Are those RJ seats more comfy than Song 757 seats? I doubt it, and you get a TV too.

A lot of people HAVE TO fly RJs now that so many of them have replaced old 727 routes. With less seats, those RJs can't bring in the same amount of people a 727 used, and now we COULD have that same number of PAX back--but don't have the mainline aircraft. So, passengers have to fly on RJs if they want to fly "Delta" from some cities. A good way to use RJs, though, is the way we use them at JFK. We have a limited number of 767Ers flying to Europe every night, and many RJs fly in from cities (like BWI, YYZ, DTW, CLE, PIT, DCA) and provide feed which might not fill up an MD88. That is good. But flying RJs from LGA to Birmingham, AL or Charleston, SC---or even DCA to DFW---that is crazy. (throw DFW to JFK in there too---you can't find more than 70 people a day from those two large cities...????)

When I see people getting on a 757 at the gate, I don't see many complaining----sure, after a 5 hour transcon on a 757 in coach you may be a bit sore---if you don't get up and walk the aisle a bit. I am sure flying in the back of a BA 744 from LHR to Bangkok also $ucks. And, the only really bad seats on an MD-88 are the last few rows behind the engine. Otherwise, it is a fairly quite and smooth ride.

As far as MYR service on Airtran---why would they be flying it part time? Medflyer seems to think that every airline should fly every route everyday! (in response to the 1/4 less flying at Song for the month of SEP only)
A lot of the other RJ flying at Airtran will be replaced with new 717s---and the RJs will be gone.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MedFlyer]

Hey Medflyer,

You have only flown Song once. I have flown it numerous times and I really liked it - it's more comfortable than mainline and most of the competition. Leather seat (kinda form fitting - it feels great), a great TV setup, actually good food (good food for the $7 - I wasn't complaining) and spunky/fun flight attendants. As I recall, even Lowecur was pleasantly surprised by Song (if I am not confusing him with someone else). And by the way, the flights were full each time I flew Song - jam packed.

I have flown both Comair and ASA recently, and the reaction from passengers always seems grim. "Oh no, not one of these munchkin jets again" or "Oooh my God, look how small it is." No wonder AirTran dumped the CRJs in favor of increased utilization of the 717s. Not profitable on LCC routes, not comfortable, and they actually disturb potentially loyal passengers.

I'm not debating whether Song is more comfortable than an RJ. I'm sure Song is more comfortable. However, airlines are in the business to make money and Song isn't doing that. As the General put its, Song was only created to give JetBlue a headache. However, giving JetBlue a headache isn't going to get the bills paid.

 

[MedFlyer]

Are those RJ seats more comfy than Song 757 seats? I doubt it, and you get a TV too.

As far as MYR service on Airtran---why would they be flying it part time? Medflyer seems to think that every airline should fly every route everyday! (in response to the 1/4 less flying at Song for the month of SEP only)
A lot of the other RJ flying at Airtran will be replaced with new 717s---and the RJs will be gone.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I never said that....as usual you are making things up. However, the Airtran problem supports my point. Because Airtran will not have the right size equipment (RJ), they are forced to abandon a market for months. Song has the same problem...equipment isn't the right size so they have to pull down flights. It's all about matching supply and demand.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

the flight may be full.....but at $67 darn dollars you cant break even if you cram 1200 people into that 757!!!

General,

I certainly dont claim to know much about the airlines, I do however know quite a few guys flying for DAL, and your attitude is completly different than thiers!!...hopefully your optomism proves true for DAL!!

P.S. - I have heard good things about SONG, many general public folks (my parents etc..) have said it was a great flight!

 

[On Your Six]

Medflyer,

Not profitable? I recall a recent article in which Grinstein and Salveggio noted that Song made an Operating Profit for Q1. In the day of Martha Stewart and Enron, Grinstein would certainly NOT lie in a quoted article - he would probably die in prison.... I doubt he would lie. Where are you getting your information regarding Song and its profitability? That seems to be a popular but unproven opinion. Are you tight with Song management?

As far as Semptember's slow down of Song flights, I also recall an article in which Leo Mullin stated that there was a temporary dropoff in leisure traffic in September of last year. So, it makes sense that Song/Delta would be proactive and withdraw a few aircraft for maintenance - if that is needed. I bet Song and JetBlue have a traffic dropoff in September - both are giving away 5 thousand free tickets each to promote their product - Song is doing it just for September.

I am furloughed from another major and I am currently flying part-time corporate. I have flown Song a few times to reposition to my aircraft and I have been impressed each time. As far as flying ASA and Comair, I didn't have a choice in the matter - my employer bought the tickets for repositioning purposes (recently from ROC to SRQ - flew RJs on both legs).

 

[General Lee]

Gulfstream 200,


I don't know if every fare is $67. Our Song 757s have 199 seats, and they also sell food on board, so maybe they can break even....I don't know. As I said before, my brother paid $298 one way on a ticket to LA---and I think that is the max fare at Song. If you bought your ticket on the day before or same day--it might be more expensive.


Medflyer,

You keep saying that we don't have the right plane for Song---I think we do. Sure, some days may not be as full as others, and some months (SEP) may not be as full---but most of the flights I have flown have been fairly full---My last two--LGA to TPA and back to LGA over the weekend had 170 and 173 out of 199. Not bad. Are they making money? Grinstein and Salvaggio said so---to the media. Prove them wong please. The 737-200 was not the right aircraft for Express, and we were always full. (I flew it for a year) Now we added 80 more seats (from 119 at Express) and a more fuel effiecinet airplane that has an FMS (can go direct and save gas), and more fuel efficient engines.... My flights, I say again, have been mostly full....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Are those RJ seats more comfy than Song 757 seats? I doubt it, and you get a TV too.

A lot of people HAVE TO fly RJs now that so many of them have replaced old 727 routes. With less seats, those RJs can't bring in the same amount of people a 727 used,..... So, passengers have to fly on RJs if they want to fly "Delta" from some cities.

But flying RJs from LGA to Birmingham, AL or Charleston, SC---or even DCA to DFW---that is crazy. (throw DFW to JFK in there too---you can't find more than 70 people a day from those two large cities...????)

When I see people getting on a 757 at the gate, I don't see many complaining----sure, after a 5 hour transcon on a 757 in coach you may be a bit sore---if you don't get up and walk the aisle a bit. I am sure flying in the back of a BA 744 from LHR to Bangkok also $ucks. And, the only really bad seats on an MD-88 are the last few rows behind the engine. Otherwise, it is a fairly quite and smooth ride.

As far as MYR service on Airtran---why would they be flying it part time? Medflyer seems to think that every airline should fly every route everyday!

Bye Bye--General Lee

General - you crack me up.

Yes an RJ can carry the same number of Delta seats that a 727 used to - with three times the frequency

You write "Medflyer thinks that an airline should fly the same route everyday." Yes, I think Medflyer is correct, passengers like it even more if the airline flies the same route every hour of every day, like the DCA service that you think is crazy.

How about this for a reorg plan after bankruptcy.

(1) Give the RJ's to Delta's two favorite charities, the Gay Pride movement and Women in Aviation. Take a 10 billion dollar charge against earnings for the airplanes and another 3 billion for the airlines that operated the pesky little feeders.
(2) Get a 135 certificate
(3) Advertise - "Delta is ready when you are with on demand Charter "
(4) Park a 757 at every gate and wait until it fills up with people who want to go to the same place. Then launch with a 100% load factor - it has to be profitable if every seat is full, right.

~~~^~~~

It really does not matter. Contract 2000 will have the result I forcast it would in early 2001. The same people who ran the Delta MEC and ALPA are still in position and the Delta pilots have not had the wisdom to question the leadership that brought them here.

 

[InclusiveScope]

General,

Here are some more numbers for you to analyze. We all await your expert opinion!


http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=150782

 

[Dizel8]

Song may indeed be profitable. DAL does not break down individual numbers for their divisons.
Of course, if Song is profitable, then pilot cost is not the problem at DAL , it is the correct utilization of assets.

Selvaggio said it was profitable and that should count for something, however, since DAL does not break down the numbers, there is no general consensus, as to what Song is actually paying for as a division. Does Song bear the cost of doing mx, do they pay part of warehousing cost, reservations, gate usage, dispatch etc, or are those cost passed on, or provided free by DAL? If they are passed on, then Song should be wildly profitable.

Unless DAL actually breaks out the real numbers for Song, we will not know if Song is profitable and Selvaggio can legally say whatever he wants, depending on how the finances are done.

 

[FDJ2]

General,

Here are some more numbers for you to analyze. We all await your expert opinion!


http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=150782

How many of those profitable LCC have those high cost RJs or are saddled with RJ debt?

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


Alright, I actually took the time to look thru that whole presentation and something occured to me---- what is shown is unfortunately happening to our industry. The management types are trying to get you and me to fly more and get paid less---and you obviously celebrate this type of treatment. I know that this is what "must happen" for us to compete--and that is unfortunate. Didn't you ever want the "good life?" I did--and I have experienced it for the last 7 years---which I feel fortuante to have done. Now, times have changed it seems--and people like to gloat that they are more productive and can "do it for less." You also have to remember that the LCCs and the Majors do not have the same type of route structures (INTL vs Domestic only)---and things can never be exactly the same. But, our domestic side will move towards the LCC way--and our managment team will be high fiving each other all the way to the bar.....


Dizel8,

I actually think Song is profitable, and apparently it can produce a 15% savings compared to Mainline 757s. I think they might incorporate more Song 757s into the system.

Bye Bye--General Lee