DAL BK worst option for recovery

[MedFlyer]

Hey Medflyer,

You have only flown Song once. I have flown it numerous times and I really liked it - it's more comfortable than mainline and most of the competition. Leather seat (kinda form fitting - it feels great), a great TV setup, actually good food (good food for the $7 - I wasn't complaining) and spunky/fun flight attendants. As I recall, even Lowecur was pleasantly surprised by Song (if I am not confusing him with someone else). And by the way, the flights were full each time I flew Song - jam packed.

I have flown both Comair and ASA recently, and the reaction from passengers always seems grim. "Oh no, not one of these munchkin jets again" or "Oooh my God, look how small it is." No wonder AirTran dumped the CRJs in favor of increased utilization of the 717s. Not profitable on LCC routes, not comfortable, and they actually disturb potentially loyal passengers.

I'm not debating whether Song is more comfortable than an RJ. I'm sure Song is more comfortable. However, airlines are in the business to make money and Song isn't doing that. As the General put its, Song was only created to give JetBlue a headache. However, giving JetBlue a headache isn't going to get the bills paid.

 

[MedFlyer]

Are those RJ seats more comfy than Song 757 seats? I doubt it, and you get a TV too.

As far as MYR service on Airtran---why would they be flying it part time? Medflyer seems to think that every airline should fly every route everyday! (in response to the 1/4 less flying at Song for the month of SEP only)
A lot of the other RJ flying at Airtran will be replaced with new 717s---and the RJs will be gone.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I never said that....as usual you are making things up. However, the Airtran problem supports my point. Because Airtran will not have the right size equipment (RJ), they are forced to abandon a market for months. Song has the same problem...equipment isn't the right size so they have to pull down flights. It's all about matching supply and demand.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

the flight may be full.....but at $67 darn dollars you cant break even if you cram 1200 people into that 757!!!

General,

I certainly dont claim to know much about the airlines, I do however know quite a few guys flying for DAL, and your attitude is completly different than thiers!!...hopefully your optomism proves true for DAL!!

P.S. - I have heard good things about SONG, many general public folks (my parents etc..) have said it was a great flight!

 

[On Your Six]

Medflyer,

Not profitable? I recall a recent article in which Grinstein and Salveggio noted that Song made an Operating Profit for Q1. In the day of Martha Stewart and Enron, Grinstein would certainly NOT lie in a quoted article - he would probably die in prison.... I doubt he would lie. Where are you getting your information regarding Song and its profitability? That seems to be a popular but unproven opinion. Are you tight with Song management?

As far as Semptember's slow down of Song flights, I also recall an article in which Leo Mullin stated that there was a temporary dropoff in leisure traffic in September of last year. So, it makes sense that Song/Delta would be proactive and withdraw a few aircraft for maintenance - if that is needed. I bet Song and JetBlue have a traffic dropoff in September - both are giving away 5 thousand free tickets each to promote their product - Song is doing it just for September.

I am furloughed from another major and I am currently flying part-time corporate. I have flown Song a few times to reposition to my aircraft and I have been impressed each time. As far as flying ASA and Comair, I didn't have a choice in the matter - my employer bought the tickets for repositioning purposes (recently from ROC to SRQ - flew RJs on both legs).

 

[General Lee]

Gulfstream 200,


I don't know if every fare is $67. Our Song 757s have 199 seats, and they also sell food on board, so maybe they can break even....I don't know. As I said before, my brother paid $298 one way on a ticket to LA---and I think that is the max fare at Song. If you bought your ticket on the day before or same day--it might be more expensive.


Medflyer,

You keep saying that we don't have the right plane for Song---I think we do. Sure, some days may not be as full as others, and some months (SEP) may not be as full---but most of the flights I have flown have been fairly full---My last two--LGA to TPA and back to LGA over the weekend had 170 and 173 out of 199. Not bad. Are they making money? Grinstein and Salvaggio said so---to the media. Prove them wong please. The 737-200 was not the right aircraft for Express, and we were always full. (I flew it for a year) Now we added 80 more seats (from 119 at Express) and a more fuel effiecinet airplane that has an FMS (can go direct and save gas), and more fuel efficient engines.... My flights, I say again, have been mostly full....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Are those RJ seats more comfy than Song 757 seats? I doubt it, and you get a TV too.

A lot of people HAVE TO fly RJs now that so many of them have replaced old 727 routes. With less seats, those RJs can't bring in the same amount of people a 727 used,..... So, passengers have to fly on RJs if they want to fly "Delta" from some cities.

But flying RJs from LGA to Birmingham, AL or Charleston, SC---or even DCA to DFW---that is crazy. (throw DFW to JFK in there too---you can't find more than 70 people a day from those two large cities...????)

When I see people getting on a 757 at the gate, I don't see many complaining----sure, after a 5 hour transcon on a 757 in coach you may be a bit sore---if you don't get up and walk the aisle a bit. I am sure flying in the back of a BA 744 from LHR to Bangkok also $ucks. And, the only really bad seats on an MD-88 are the last few rows behind the engine. Otherwise, it is a fairly quite and smooth ride.

As far as MYR service on Airtran---why would they be flying it part time? Medflyer seems to think that every airline should fly every route everyday!

Bye Bye--General Lee

General - you crack me up.

Yes an RJ can carry the same number of Delta seats that a 727 used to - with three times the frequency

You write "Medflyer thinks that an airline should fly the same route everyday." Yes, I think Medflyer is correct, passengers like it even more if the airline flies the same route every hour of every day, like the DCA service that you think is crazy.

How about this for a reorg plan after bankruptcy.

(1) Give the RJ's to Delta's two favorite charities, the Gay Pride movement and Women in Aviation. Take a 10 billion dollar charge against earnings for the airplanes and another 3 billion for the airlines that operated the pesky little feeders.
(2) Get a 135 certificate
(3) Advertise - "Delta is ready when you are with on demand Charter "
(4) Park a 757 at every gate and wait until it fills up with people who want to go to the same place. Then launch with a 100% load factor - it has to be profitable if every seat is full, right.

~~~^~~~

It really does not matter. Contract 2000 will have the result I forcast it would in early 2001. The same people who ran the Delta MEC and ALPA are still in position and the Delta pilots have not had the wisdom to question the leadership that brought them here.

 

[InclusiveScope]

General,

Here are some more numbers for you to analyze. We all await your expert opinion!


http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=150782

 

[Dizel8]

Song may indeed be profitable. DAL does not break down individual numbers for their divisons.
Of course, if Song is profitable, then pilot cost is not the problem at DAL , it is the correct utilization of assets.

Selvaggio said it was profitable and that should count for something, however, since DAL does not break down the numbers, there is no general consensus, as to what Song is actually paying for as a division. Does Song bear the cost of doing mx, do they pay part of warehousing cost, reservations, gate usage, dispatch etc, or are those cost passed on, or provided free by DAL? If they are passed on, then Song should be wildly profitable.

Unless DAL actually breaks out the real numbers for Song, we will not know if Song is profitable and Selvaggio can legally say whatever he wants, depending on how the finances are done.

 

[FDJ2]

General,

Here are some more numbers for you to analyze. We all await your expert opinion!


http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=150782

How many of those profitable LCC have those high cost RJs or are saddled with RJ debt?

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


Alright, I actually took the time to look thru that whole presentation and something occured to me---- what is shown is unfortunately happening to our industry. The management types are trying to get you and me to fly more and get paid less---and you obviously celebrate this type of treatment. I know that this is what "must happen" for us to compete--and that is unfortunate. Didn't you ever want the "good life?" I did--and I have experienced it for the last 7 years---which I feel fortuante to have done. Now, times have changed it seems--and people like to gloat that they are more productive and can "do it for less." You also have to remember that the LCCs and the Majors do not have the same type of route structures (INTL vs Domestic only)---and things can never be exactly the same. But, our domestic side will move towards the LCC way--and our managment team will be high fiving each other all the way to the bar.....


Dizel8,

I actually think Song is profitable, and apparently it can produce a 15% savings compared to Mainline 757s. I think they might incorporate more Song 757s into the system.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Just to set the record straight, JB has NBC and will be getting Fox soon along with Fox movies and XM radio with 100 channels. Direct TV to increase to 34 channels. As to "headaches" caused by Song, David as well as other airline execs should be lucky to have these kind of "headaches". Healthy competition on a profitable route keeps us sharp. We still make a profit and there's enough of a market that everybody can get a piece of this pie.

 

[Snakum]

1. The RJ seats are more roomy than 757 coach seats and more roomy than many MD 80 seats:

Not to burst in on another Delta/CMR/ASA slagging match, but I will always maintain that RJ seats are just as comfortable and roomy as coach on any 73 or 75 I've flown - which means "not very" . I can understand someone not wanting to fly an RJ for other reasons (claustrophobia?), however I don't understand folks ragging on the RJ seating/room issue, because I'm 6'1" and once I'm napping on the plane I can't tell if I'm in an RJ or a Boeing. Anyone know the average actual pitch/leg room, etc. among the aircraft?

You may now continue to compare d1ck sizes ...

Minh

 

[sleepy]

It's just my opinion general, but I believe that GG is saying things in the press to both scare your pilot group into giving at least a 30% pay concession, but at the same time he wants to give you incentive to do it by saying that bankruptcy is a last resort. Once they get that initial concession, they will enter bankruptcy then get even more from you starting at a lower baseline.


They seem to really want to get rid of that "no furlough" clause so they can shrink you down to about 5,000 pilots. That will make it easy to get rid of the MD80's and go to a lower number of aircraft types in the fleet, thus reducing training costs and not having to pay pilots to sit around their houses doing nothing.

As for the battle of the seats, I believe that most mainline coach seats are more comfortable, unless it is a middle seat in a row of three.

Of course none of this will be my problem soon.

 

[InclusiveScope]

How many of those profitable LCC have those high cost RJs or are saddled with RJ debt?

FDJ2,
Lets look at slide #2 to answer your question. The airlines used in that comparison of pre-tax margins are:
1. DL
2. UA
3. US
4. AA
5. NW
6. CO
7. HP (America West)
8. FL (Air Tran)
9. WN (Southwest)
10. B6 (Jet Blue)

You asked how many of the profitable LCC use high cost RJs. The answer for now is only America West. However that is not the end of the answer. Lets look at how many North American destinations each of these carriers serve:

1. DL: 209
2. UA: 156
3. US: 169
4. AA: 181
5. NW: 201
6. CO: 190
7. HP: 93
8. FL: 44
9. WN: 60
10. B6: 23

The carriers with RJs serve an average of 171 North American destinations. The LCC without RJs serve an average of 42 North American destinations. Essentially, the RJ is one of the last 2 main reasons the LCCs haven't finished off the "Legacy Carriers". It is the ability to fly to the smaller 150 or so North American destinations and the ability to fly to international destinations that are keeping the "Legacy Carriers" alive. Do you still really think this was the RJs fault?

 

[InclusiveScope]

Not to burst in on another Delta/CMR/ASA slagging match, but I will always maintain that RJ seats are just as comfortable and roomy as coach on any 73 or 75 I've flown - which means "not very" . I can understand someone not wanting to fly an RJ for other reasons (claustrophobia?), however I don't understand folks ragging on the RJ seating/room issue, because I'm 6'1" and once I'm napping on the plane I can't tell if I'm in an RJ or a Boeing. Anyone know the average actual pitch/leg room, etc. among the aircraft?

You may now continue to compare d1ck sizes ...

Minh

B737-200 Economy Class:30-32.0" pitch17.0" width
MD80 Economy Class:31-33.0" pitch17.0" width




B757 Economy Class:31.0" pitch17.0" width



CRJ Economy Class: 31.0" pitch17.5" width

Wider without the middle seat!

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,

There is no doubt that Grinstein is trying to scare us into giving 30% pay back---that is called "brinksmanship"---and it is common in negotiations. I would expect that---and you should too. Look at your current negotiations and you will see it too. Scare tacticts are common. Now, I also know that we are not in the best of shape to put it lightly, but we have a solid MEC and a good negotiating team, and they will re-engage soon and get a compromise good for all of us. And, Grinstein will not purposely go into Chap 11 after our negotiations--because he will be "under fire" for all of his recent comments. He said it would be their "last resort" to go into Chap 11 now---and if he did---every stock holder would hire a lawyer to look into just that. They would ask, "Why didn't he take more pay cuts from the stews, or mechanics, or DCI people to avert the filing???" Those questions would be raised, and he would have to come up with good answers under oathe. Making statements to the media can come back to haunt you....

I don't know where you keep coming up with the 5,000 pilot number? That is a bunch of B.S. And I like how you came up with the "dispose of the MD-88s Plan." I guess if they got rid of those somehow (which have leases that don't end until 2008 and later......yes, I understand you could get rid of them in Chap 11), Delta wouldn't replace them with other airplanes? I have heard that Boeing is willing to trade newer 737-700/800's for the MD-88s. Delta management keeps saying that they want common fleet types--and that could be centered around the 737-700/800 and a few other Boeing types.

Also, not many current returning furloughs are sitting around doing nothing at their homes---the last 30 or so were assigned ATL MD-88 class starting next month, and the first 30 new returning furloughs (Aug 1st) were already assigned a 737-200 class when they return in AUG.

So, none of this will be your problem soon, eh? Well, have a good life outside of aviation I guess....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[xanderman]

good response!

Xanderman,
That is a simple question, yet it is not a simple answer. Let's examine the three main reasons that pilots in this field want to fly "bigger airplanes".

1. More money

2. A perceived or real idea that it would be "cool" to fly big equipment

3. Resume building - something to add to the "experience" column so as to be more competitive in the hunt for that "dream job".

I find it ironic that you are asking this question. It appears that you are an America West pilot. At America West, you fly aircraft that range in size from 113 seats up to 190 seats. The payrate is the same for all these aircraft at America West. In addition, your top Captain rate is $137.72. The top Captain rate at Comair is $113.12. Next year, the top Captain rate at Comair will be $118.22.

So to recap: The extra 120 seats between your 757 and Comairs CL700 nets you about $20. To put it another way, if I decided today that "you know what, that Xanderman sure is a smart fella - I want to go fly the "bigger" 757 at America West". It would take me about 15 years to get back to my current pay. In the meantime, I would lose money and I would lose scheduling QOL. I currently have 4 weeks of vacation and can hold lines that have 18 days off.

If that is what you mean when you ask if I want to fly a larger aircraft, then the answer would be NO!

That covers reason #1 to fly bigger aircraft.

As for reasons #2 and #3. The answer was Yes, but now it is No. These reasons are part of the problem. Pilots are willing to fly bigger aircraft for the "thrill" and for the resume. I don't need either.

I don't want to bust your chops Xanderman, but rather than ask why I am defending 50 and 70 seat airliners, the questions you should be asking are:

1. Why are these airliners now considered "RJs" when they used be called DC9s and Fokkers?
and
2. Why does the union continue to support multiple alter-ego carriers bidding on flying with a single management?

These are the important questions, not whether or not "RJs" are airliners - they are just as much an airliner as is your 757.

Take care.

Inclusivescope,
You are correct in your analysis. I see your point. However, the matter at hand is really a choice I believe you made. You chose to stay at ASA (i assume it's ASA) for whatever reason. Nothing wrong with that. But don't be resentful (I say this because of the tone of your post) to those of us that have made the choice and worked hard to get to the next level. We wish to protect our future just as well as you do. Oh and by the way, considering AWA's all too rocky past, I think this contract is a good improvement over the last. And in 3 years it'll get even better! How much higher will your contract go...?
Andy

P.S. I have to admit that flying big airplanes has always been a goal for me. If, for whatever reason, I couldn't, I think I'd be bitter. So I suppose I'm shallow... Screwed either way.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,
You are correct in your analysis. I see your point. However, the matter at hand is really a choice I believe you made. You chose to stay at ASA (i assume it's ASA) for whatever reason. Nothing wrong with that. But don't be resentful to those of us that have made the choice and worked hard to get to the next level. We wish to protect our future just as well as you do. Oh and by the way, considering AWA's all too rocky past, I think this contract is a good improvement over the last. And in 3 years it'll get even better! How much higher will your contract go...?
Andy

P.S. I have to admit that flying big airplanes has always been a goal for me. If, for whatever reason, I couldn't, I think I'd be bitter. So I suppose I'm shallow...

Xanderman,
I see your point also. In fact, I used to have your opinion. I was going to me a major airline pilot making $300,000 per year working 8 days a year flying all over the globe. Times changed, the industry changed, and ALPA has done a terrible job adjusting to these changes. Therefor as any good pilot should do, I re-evaluated the situation based on current conditions and changing forecasts. I am now headed to the alternate while others remain in the holding pattern hoping the weather will improve. If it comes back up, those of you in the holding pattern may be better off. If it doesn't come back up, I will be ahead of you in the fuel line at the alternate. Don't look in the rear view mirror to see where you are going.

 

[lowecur]

General

CNBC kept referring to the number requested by Greenjeans as 34%. Has he raised the ante? I could understand that reasoning due to the escalation of fuel prices and the continued attrition of pricing power on many of your bread and butter routes due to the expansion of the LCC's. If he is indead raising the ante, then that leads to speculation that maybe he doesn't want a settlement. Bankruptcy although distasteful, could relieve DL of many existing contracts ie: leases on unwanted a/c (MD80's, SKW dl65's,), as well as the seemly insurmountable mound of debt that has been created in the last 2 years. I just hope he hasn't worked out a backdoor deal with Texas Pacific.

 

[xanderman]

Dare I say this...?

Inclusivescope,
I'll agree. Alpa missed the boat when it came to RJ flying. I wish there could be an easy answer but there isn't. So we must dust ouselves off and get back to work I suppose...
Andy

 

[General Lee]

Lowecur,

I read yesterday in the articles that 30% was his "minimum"--but I wouldn't doubt he would ACCEPT 34%. It will be interesting to see how it plays out---the pay cut may be larger than 30% if we choose not to give up as many work rule related concessions--since we know they are harder to get back eventually. Pay is always easier to get back because it can be based on current profits and other contracts at other airlines (like AA getting a 9% raise this year). Grinstein may want to get rid of some of the leases and contracts with carriers--but he can't just chuck them and go Chap 11 without incurring some wrath from stock holders and their lawyers. Good ole Ray Neidl said today that we have until the end of the first quarter next year to come up with a deal, and I think it will be done prior to that. Then the mending will be on its way.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[79%N1]

My best General Lee impression.....

Rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric Comair Bad rhetoric rhetoric 757's rhetoric rhetoric Song Good rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric 30% rhetoric rhetoric RJ's BAD! rhetoric rhetoric hate RJ's rhetoric rhetoric bring back furloughees rhetoric rhetoric hate Comair rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric passangers like TV's rhetoric rhetoric Grinstein hate RJ's rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric clogging up the system rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric Death to Comair pilots rhetoric rhetoric Regionals BAD rhetoric blah blah blah blah blah.....................................

 

[General Lee]

79%N1,


Bitter, Bitter, Bitter, jealous, bitter, bitter.......

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

MEC Communications Committee Chairman, on Wednesday, June 16, with two items.

Item one. The Delta MEC has just concluded a special three-day meeting in Los Angeles. During the meeting, the MEC received a comprehensive financial update from our economic experts and investment bankers. As has been reported, Delta is under considerable pressure due to increasing fuel costs and declining yields. After careful deliberation, the MEC passed a resolution directing the Negotiating Committee to attempt to resume negotiations with management in accordance with the MEC’s updated objectives and goals. The resolution is posted under “special interest items” on the MEC website for your review. There are no negotiating sessions scheduled at this time; however, we will keep you updated of any developments.

 

[sleepy]

General,

Won't you agree with me that the biggest thing that DAL wants out of is the $5.4 Billion in payments due to the underfunde pilots pension. The only way out is through bankruptcy.

BTW, I'm not leaving aviation, just the airline portion of it.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,
I'll agree. Alpa missed the boat when it came to RJ flying. I wish there could be an easy answer but there isn't. So we must dust ouselves off and get back to work I suppose...
Andy

Here's what former ALPA president Randy Babbitt said in 1997 in Air Line Pilot Career magazine:

ALPC: Scope seems to be becoming a hot topic during airline contract negations. Would you share some of your views on the scope issue?

Babbitt: The difficulty arose probably from some shortsightedness during the early days of deregulation. I say shortsightedness — I blame us, ALPA, as much as anybody, myself included. I was a member of a negotiating team at the time and the carriers came to us and said, "Look, you know we're deregulated and we are going to sell those Convairs, those Electras, DC-7s or whatever, simply because they are not profitable anymore. We're not going to fly into small cities anymore, but you wouldn't mind if PBA or some other commuter did it, would you?" We said, "No, as long as you respect our scope clause, we'll give you permission." In retrospect, with the incredible clarity that 20 years of hindsight will bring, we should have said, "Yes, we care, it's our plan. If the company wants to buy some Beech 99s or F-27s, we'll fly them. We'll put a section in our contract. Set up a division and have a system similar to a farm team. But, one seniority list." Sure, we might have had to change some work rules, but that's been going on for a long time, too. We have international rules and now we have shuttle rules with some carriers. We could have had regional rules. That's where the problem was hatched. The solution in my view would be that we need to acknowledge that this is airline system flying. In other words, if you fly for USAir, the flying done by all of USAir and its code-sharing partners should be USAir system flying. There should be a provision that those regional pilots will someday migrate to the mainline carrier. They are already flying the colors; they have the corporate loyalty. This is just a convenient bypass mechanism the carriers have instituted to keep us somewhat apart.

ALPC: So if a pilot is flying a regional jet, then they should be on the mainline seniority list?

Babbitt: Sure.

 

[InclusiveScope]

General,

Won't you agree with me that the biggest thing that DAL wants out of is the $5.4 Billion in payments due to the underfunde pilots pension. The only way out is through bankruptcy.

BINGO! That is the main difference now between Regionals/LCCs and the Legacy carriers. The underfunded pension plans are what is draining them. I think of the A fund defined benefit plans the same way I think of Social Security. They were poorly planned from the start and were probably a mistake. The tough part is backing out of them now and transitioning to defined contribution plans.

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


Thanks for the MEC update. We already know that, and I think it is good to re-engage negotiations. We will finally get rid of that lame first offer of 14%---which management harps on--even though we have been open to negotiate all along.

As far as the underfunded pensions------it is all tied in with the stock market. Since the stock market is up---the pension shortfalls are down. And, to top that off--we have had pension relief from Congress--which enables a company an extra two years to delay required pension payments----and in reality we still paid our first large payment this last quarter anyways.....

Both you and Sleepy are looking for problems, and I have seen nothing mentioned about the pension problems in a long while. Thanks for caring---but no dice--again.


Sleepy,

Let me guess....Lav dumper? Chicks love those blue hands! Make sure you wear the full face mask.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Inclusivescope,


Thanks for the MEC update. We already know that, and I think it is good to re-engage negotiations. We will finally get rid of that lame first offer of 14%---which management harps on--even though we have been open to negotiate all along.

As far as the underfunded pensions------it is all tied in with the stock market. Since the stock market is up---the pension shortfalls are down. And, to top that off--we have had pension relief from Congress--which enables a company an extra two years to delay required pension payments----and in reality we still paid our first large payment this last quarter anyways.....

Both you and Sleepy are looking for problems, and I have seen nothing mentioned about the pension problems in a long while. Thanks for caring---but no dice--again.


Sleepy,

Let me guess....Lav dumper? Chicks love those blue hands! Make sure you wear the full face mask.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The private once again proves that you can take a turd and douse it in cologne and put a double breasted suit on it, but at the end of the day it's still just a turd.

 

[General Lee]

X-ream-me,


What? You sound ridiculous. So, you're calling me a "turd", right? Ummm, ok. Riiiiight....

Bye Bye--General Lee