DAL BK worst option for recovery

[XRMEFLYER]

Inclusivescope,


I have a close friend that was an ASA flight attendant that was in the crew lounge in 2000 when the ASA pilots were literally jumping up and down with joy thinking they were going to get date of hire seniority at Delta. You cannot deny that. That is crazy. Also remember that under that ALPA merger policy----they look at where you would fit financially---or your W2 forms. The most senior ASA/Comair pilot would still be stapled under that regard, since the most junior guy at Delta currently makes more than the most senior at DCI.
As far as the PAn Am guys and Western guys--a lot of them turned out better than had their own airlines stayed on their own and went Chap 7. Ever heard of the "dirty 30" at Pan Am? They were 30 senior 747 Capts at Pan Am that got word of a possible partial buy out of Pan Am, and they quickly bid down to the Pan Am 727 Shuttle and were allowed to progress to Delta. As soon as they got on the Delta seniority list, they all bid 767ER INTL Capt at JFk and were awarded it. They bumped 30 727 Capts out of the running, and then bid and were awarded DL 767 INTL Capt.

So, what will happen? Good question. But, I would bet that Dalpa will be bargaining away future "large" Rjs over to mainline to keep those furloughs coming back---and to make sure that the "market" for those planes---the 90 to 100 seat area---will be filled. The rates will be lower, but the flying will stay at mainline. IF you guys want to stay at DCI and eventually fly larger planes--a staple may be in your best interest--and as pay scales get closer---it may be a good option for you. If not---well, that is your decision. I have to go fly a 4 day trip out of ATL. Hasta.

Bye Bye--General Lee

"I know a FA who was in the lounge when..." Wasn't this tool just pounding her chest the other day about how her BS posts were supported by facts and articles(and we all know how solid and accurate everything is that you read in the paper)?

 

[rgd]

General since you know what the stock market is going to do, why don't you give up being a pilot and become a money manager. I am sure every firm on wall street would love to have you and your crystal ball. I heard from my good friend who mops the floor at Citigroup say that he heard the next door neighbors dogs cousins best friend who met this guy who knows this girl who was lost in ATL and made her way down to the pilot lounge say they were looking for a fund manager. Some of your posts sound like a high school girl on the phone with her friends. I have never heard someone as blue sky and cherry pie for everything they want to happen thats good and gloom and doom for everything they think is bad. What color is the sky in your world? Cause you aren't living here on earth with the rest of us. C'mon, not EVERYTHING is gonna work out for ya. It's called denial. Seek professional help. Don't make us have an intervention with you.

 

[N2264J]

Re: DAL BK...

Most ASA pilots I know do not support the RJDC, and an overwhelming majority would support a staple at the bottom of the DAL list. But if there is not a staple, then we don't feel DALPA has a right to negotiate for us by proxy...

The RJDC doesn't believe that the DMEC has the right to negotiate pay and working conditions for ASA pilots either. We believe it's a violation of your contract as well as Federal law and ALPA's own Constitution and By-laws. In my opinion, the lawsuit has thus far, kept that from happening. In other words, it is my belief that the Delta pilots would have bargained away your cockpit seat years ago in a Jets-for-Jobs scenario had it not been for the ligitation running interference on ALPA's bad faith conduct.

I think the scrutiny of the court is hampering the Delta pilots from doing to you what the US Airways MEC did to their wholly owns. That's the reason for the condescending tone and all the shrill acrimony for the feeder pukes who aren't "team players." In the meantime, you can upgrade if you want.

 

[InclusiveScope]

The RJDC doesn't believe that the DMEC has the right to negotiate pay and working conditions for ASA pilots either. We believe it's a violation of your contract as well as Federal law and ALPA's own Constitution and By-laws. In my opinion, the lawsuit has thus far, kept that from happening. In other words, it is my belief that the Delta pilots would have bargained away your cockpit seat years ago in a Jets-for-Jobs scenario had it not been for the ligitation running interference on ALPA's bad faith conduct.

I think the scrutiny of the court is hampering the Delta pilots from doing to you what the US Airways MEC did to their wholly owns. That's the reason for the condescending tone and all the shrill acrimony for the feeder pukes who aren't "team players." In the meantime, you can upgrade if you want.

June 21, 2004

Captain Duane Woerth, President
Air Line Pilots Association
535 Herndon Parkway
Herndon, VA 20172-1169

VIA FAX AND CERTIFIED MAIL

Re: Resumption of Delta Mainline Bargaining

Dear Captain Woerth,

As you are undoubtedly aware, on June 16, 2004, the Delta Master Executive Council directed its negotiating committee to resume negotiations with management in accordance with the MEC’s updated objectives and goals. As clearly set forth in our February 26, 2004 letter to you and the Executive Council, ALPA’s officers are obligated to safeguard the rights and interests of the ASA and Comair pilots and to provide redress for past injustices.

In order to avoid redoubling the unpleasant consequences of the Delta 2001 and 2002 agreements, we request that you invoke your authority as ALPA’s President under Article XVIII of ALPA’s Constitution and By-laws and ensure the following conditions are met prior to authorizing any negotiations at Delta:

- That ALPA’s Negotiators be prohibited from unilaterally imposing any restrictions upon the ASA and Comair pilots. This includes, but is not limited to, “redefining” Delta Connection flying and “permitted” aircraft types.
- That ALPA’s Negotiators be prohibited from using scope restrictions imposed upon ASA and Comair as bargaining capital. This includes, but is not limited to, manipulating scope restrictions to obtain quid pro quo exchanges from Delta management or the ASA and Comair pilots.
- That ALPA’s negotiators and representatives be prohibited from withholding pertinent information from the ASA and Comair MEC’s. This includes, but is not limited to, details of ALPA’s scope objectives and any discussions or plans that may affect the rights and interests of the ASA and Comair pilots.
- That ALPA’s negotiators be prohibited from unilaterally negotiating or imposing any terms affecting the seniority rights or career opportunities of the ASA and Comair pilots. Such terms would include, but are not limited to, the mandatory hiring of displaced Delta pilots, bidirectional flow-throughs, or any terms commonly referred to as “Jets for Jobs.”
- That ALPA’s negotiators be directed to remove all restrictions which limit the number of aircraft ASA and Comair may operate and the markets they may serve. This includes, but is not limited to, the 57 RJ-70 limit contained in Section 1.B.17 and all applicable ratios and route restrictions contained in Sections 1.D. and 1.E. of the Delta PWA.

It is not our intent to make inflammatory demands, but rather to ensure our Association moves swiftly to preclude any subordination of ASA or Comair pilot’s rights as ALPA members. We are keenly aware of how ALPA engaged in “crisis” bargaining at US Airways and we believe that it is in everyone’s best interests to ensure that these issues be preemptively and proactively addressed at Delta.

We therefore expect ALPA to take all necessary steps to ensure that its bargaining at Delta is conducted in a manner consistent with its obligations to the ASA and Comair pilots.

Please feel free to respond directly or through counsel as we await your reply.

Sincerely,



Captain Kenneth Cooksey Captain Daniel Ford


cc: Executive Council
ASA MEC
Comair MEC
Delta MEC


Enc.

 

[michael707767]

The RJDC doesn't believe that the DMEC has the right to negotiate pay and working conditions for ASA pilots either. We believe it's a violation of your contract as well as Federal law and ALPA's own Constitution and By-laws. .

Hmm, so you don't think that the DMEC has the right to negotiate for you, but yet in the latest lette from the RJDC to DW, they ask for the Delta negotiators to negotiate for them regarding the restrictions on the 70 seaters. So which is it, can we or can't we negotiate for you?

 

[N2264J]

Re: DAL BK...

Hmm, so you don't think that the DMEC has the right to negotiate for you, but yet in the latest lette from the RJDC to DW, they ask for the Delta negotiators to negotiate for them regarding the restrictions on the 70 seaters. So which is it, can we or can't we negotiate for you?

I think your reading comprehension could use a little work. I'm at a loss to understand how could you ask that question when every bullet point in the letter starts out with "ALPA negotiators (read: the Delta MEC) be prohibited from..." In the last bullet, we're asking Duane to intervene and reverse the discriminatory restrictions placed on the wholly owned carriers by your MEC: ie the number of CL-700s, block hours ratios, point to point ratios, max stage length limits, number of RJ frequencies on a given route, all of that. We think it was bad faith to impose those limits unilaterally and we're calling the union on it.

So just to recap - No, we don't want Delta negotiators bargaining pay or working conditions for Comair or ASA pilots.

As Delta careens toward bankruptcy, it is not only irresponsible but shows a great deal of contempt for the other tens of thousands of employees at Delta Inc. when the mainline pilots maneuver to restrict and hobble the only two profit centers of the corporation. We are saying that ALPA, as the sole bargaining agent, has a fiduciary responsibility to protect its members at Comair and ASA and prevent certain harm to their livelihoods by reeling in the Delta MEC.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

I think your reading comprehension could use a little work. I'm at a loss to understand how could you ask that question when every bullet point in the letter starts out with "ALPA negotiators (read: the Delta MEC) be prohibited from..." In the last bullet, we're asking Duane to intervene and reverse the discriminatory restrictions placed on the wholly owned carriers by your MEC: ie the number of CL-700s, block hours ratios, point to point ratios, max stage length limits, number of RJ frequencies on a given route, all of that. We think it was bad faith to impose those limits unilaterally and we're calling the union on it.

So just to recap - No, we don't want Delta negotiators bargaining pay or working conditions for Comair or ASA pilots.

As Delta careens toward bankruptcy, it is not only irresponsible but shows a great deal of contempt for the other tens of thousands of employees at Delta Inc. when the mainline pilots maneuver to restrict and hobble the only two profit centers of the corporation. We are saying that ALPA, as the sole bargaining agent, has a fiduciary responsibility to protect its members at Comair and ASA and prevent certain harm to their livelihoods by reeling in the Delta MEC.

Well said!

 

[N2264J]

And, Grinstein will not purposely go into Chap 11 after our negotiations--because he will be "under fire" for all of his recent comments. He said it would be their "last resort" to go into Chap 11 now---and if he did---every stock holder would hire a lawyer to look into just that. They would ask, "Why didn't he take more pay cuts from the stews, or mechanics, or DCI people to avert the filing???" Those questions would be raised, and he would have to come up with good answers under oathe. Making statements to the media can come back to haunt you....

Where do you get this stuff? You keep saying this but who will the stockholders sue? I'm sure Grinstein and the officers are fully indemnified by the corporation. If the stockholders try to sue Delta, they'll be in line behind all the creditors trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

By the way, management will not sell Comair and ASA before bankruptcy just so they can pay Delta pilots for a couple more months. The longer this gets dragged out, the higher the concession demands are going to be to turn mainline around and make it competitive going into the future.

 

[General Lee]

N2246J,


Where do you get your stuff? I just read an article with Ray Neidl the analyst saying that Grinstein "owed it" to the shareholders to do everything he could to get a deal with the pilots. If mistakes were made (like proving that no other pay cuts from other employees--non contract---were made, or assets that could have been sold were NOT) Grinstein could absolutely have personal lawsuits from stockholders. (ever heard of Ken Ley????) We aren't "holding out" for fun--we want a plan too. You need to sit back and enjoy the ride---without a plan we are all doomed...And in Chap 11---no exit until you have a viable plan.....It would be nice to have one before we settled.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[N2264J]

Re: DAL BK...

...If mistakes were made (like proving that no other pay cuts from other employees--non contract---were made, or assets that could have been sold were NOT) Grinstein could absolutely have personal lawsuits from stockholders. (ever heard of Ken Ley????)

Baloney. You can't compare Grinstein to Ken Lay. Grinstein isn't engaging in fraud. He and the other officers are certainly indemnified by the corporation and untouchable unless they get caught doing something illegal.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

N2246J,


Where do you get your stuff? I just read an article with Ray Neidl the analyst saying that Grinstein "owed it" to the shareholders to do everything he could to get a deal with the pilots. If mistakes were made (like proving that no other pay cuts from other employees--non contract---were made, or assets that could have been sold were NOT) Grinstein could absolutely have personal lawsuits from stockholders. (ever heard of Ken Ley????) We aren't "holding out" for fun--we want a plan too. You need to sit back and enjoy the ride---without a plan we are all doomed...And in Chap 11---no exit until you have a viable plan.....It would be nice to have one before we settled.

Bye Bye--General Lee

By saying he owes it to them to do everything he can, it is entirely possible that the word owes was meant in a figurative rather than the literal sense. With respect to the former CEO of Enron, he is still a very fat cat and will likely remain that way (if he can stay out of the can). The two hardly merit a comparison anyway as one would be making a strategic play to ensure his companies long term survival while the other is just plain crooked.

 

[embdrvr]

As Delta careens toward bankruptcy, it is not only irresponsible but shows a great deal of contempt for the other tens of thousands of employees at Delta Inc. when the mainline pilots maneuver to restrict and hobble the only two profit centers of the corporation.

We need to get past this idea that CMR and ASA are the "2 profit centers." The fee per departure agreements could easily be revised and CMR and ASA become loss leaders. All the money comes from DAL ticket sales. I agree with you on ALPA not using scope and CMR/ASA jobs as negotiating chips.

 

[General Lee]

Xreme-me,


Ever heard of the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation just passed by Congress? It requires full disclosures and stresses fiduciary responsibility for all senior management officials. Any waivering, and lawsuits will appear. As far as Ken Ley--he just sold all but one of his properties in Aspen to finance his lawyer bills.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

As far as DCI being huge profit centers----here is an article that disputes that:


"And one might raise the question that if ASA and
Comair are profitable, why would they go into
bankruptcy," Ashcroft continued. "Profits at those
regionals and other wholly-owned subsidiaries are
completely notional. Delta is free to arrange those
contracts and books any way it wants, and can make
them look as profitable or unprofitable as it likes."
(Regional airline analyst Robert Ashcroft of UBS
Investment Research)


Is this guy wrong?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Xreme-me,


Ever heard of the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation just passed by Congress? It requires full disclosures and stresses fiduciary responsibility for all senior management officials. Any waivering, and lawsuits will appear. As far as Ken Ley--he just sold all but one of his properties in Aspen to finance his lawyer bills.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Look at the brains on the Private! Thank you for the update professor high brow. You would have made a fine barracks lawyer if only you had been able to summon up the courage to wear the uniform!

 

[General Lee]

X-ream-me,


What? You didn't rebutt anything there, just slammed me. You are the man!

Hahhahaha


Bye bye--General Lee

 

[SWAdude]

You would have made a fine barracks lawyer if only you had been able to summon up the courage to wear the uniform!

Interesting rebuttal. The irony of that statement is how cowardly it is to slam someone while hiding behind a mask.

SWAdude

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Interesting rebuttal. The irony of that statement is how cowardly it is to slam someone while hiding behind a mask.

SWAdude

Ouch! Thank you sir may I have another?

 

[InclusiveScope]

Prof. Lee...

As far as DCI being huge profit centers----here is an article that disputes that:


"And one might raise the question that if ASA and
Comair are profitable, why would they go into
bankruptcy," Ashcroft continued. "Profits at those
regionals and other wholly-owned subsidiaries are
completely notional. Delta is free to arrange those
contracts and books any way it wants, and can make
them look as profitable or unprofitable as it likes."
(Regional airline analyst Robert Ashcroft of UBS
Investment Research)


Is this guy wrong?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Prof. Lee,
This is in ref. to wholly owned subsidiaries. The logic is that the parent company is "cooking the books" to make the subsidiary companies look profitable. Here is the first quarter DOT stats:
http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2004/bts016_04/html/bts016_04.html
Notice that the independant regional carriers have better numbers than the wholly owned carriers. The best DCI carrier is SKYW - not wholly owned and not subject to any DAL numbers twisting.
Eagerly awaiting your analysis....

 

[XRMEFLYER]

X-ream-me,


What? You didn't rebutt anything there, just slammed me. You are the man!

Hahhahaha


Bye bye--General Lee

That is the problem(one of them anyway)with you. You seem to think that everything that you have to say requires a rebuttal. I know that you don't try to be a pompous self righteous jerk, it just comes naturally for you. Were you always so convinced of how right you are and how wrong everyone else is who disagrees with you or was that something you picked up now that you fly a bigger plane than some of us?

You begin your post in this latest exchange with "ever heard of..." , as if to suggest that your argument is self evident and anyone who dares play devil's advocate is uninformed, thus the comparison to the barracks lawyer.

 

[General Lee]

X-ream-me,


You always have the ability to show me where I am wrong---but you never really do--always using slams. I welcome good debate and if I am wrong--I would like to know it. But, you can't seem to come up with any data or articles to back up your statements. I have never said, "I am always right." You, on the otherhand, resort to name calling and put downs when you can't come up with any proof to your arguments. If you just want to resort to name calling--fine. I can handle that. But, I atleast put some effort into my posts and look for info that shows it is credible.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

X-ream-me,


You always have the ability to show me where I am wrong---but you never really do--always using slams. I welcome good debate and if I am wrong--I would like to know it. But, you can't seem to come up with any data or articles to back up your statements. I have never said, "I am always right." You, on the otherhand, resort to name calling and put downs when you can't come up with any proof to your arguments. If you just want to resort to name calling--fine. I can handle that. But, I atleast put some effort into my posts and look for info that shows it is credible.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Prof. Lee,
You must have missed my post that questioned your assertion that DAL is manipulating the profit numbers of ASA and CMR. If you look at the first quarter numbers, the independent regional carriers are doing better than the wholly owned carriers. The best DCI carrier is SKYW. How is this so Prof. Lee if it is because the numbers are being manipulated?
http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2.../bts016_04.html

 

[XRMEFLYER]

X-ream-me,


You always have the ability to show me where I am wrong---but you never really do--always using slams. I welcome good debate and if I am wrong--I would like to know it. But, you can't seem to come up with any data or articles to back up your statements. I have never said, "I am always right." You, on the otherhand, resort to name calling and put downs when you can't come up with any proof to your arguments. If you just want to resort to name calling--fine. I can handle that. But, I atleast put some effort into my posts and look for info that shows it is credible.

Bye Bye--General Lee

OK Private, here it is. I've said it a few times before, but apparently you weren't paying very close attention.

You don't have to SAY that you are "always right" for your posts to come off that way. When you respond to my post that was admittedly lacking in references to newspaper or magazine articles(since when are they any kind of authority on anything?) by saying "Ever heard of..." you are being a pedantic sanctimonious prik and just begging for a beating not inviting any sort of dialogue on the subject.

As for the dig about your lacking the courage to wear the uniform, well I guess that was wrong of me to say and I apologize. It was a time delayed response to one of your last scholarly works where you say that I am "being a military jerkoff" during one of our debates. What were you trying to say there? Were you sticking to the subject matter and referencing data to support your case or doing just what it is that you impugn me for? You lit into someone( I forget who maybe Lowecur or Sleepy or medflyer) just the other day and called them a "jerk" for wanting to see their company grow and along with it their career. So enough with the "why is everybody always picking on me" Charlie Brown routine because you are doing the same thing.

 

[FDJ2]

Not at Delta FDJ2. The only group at Delta with a Defined Benefits plan is the Delta pilots.

I glad you now realize how rediculous that statement is. The Delta pilots, as you now most certainly must know are not the only group with a DB plan.

 

[InclusiveScope]

I glad you now realize how rediculous that statement is. The Delta pilots, as you now most certainly must know are not the only group with a DB plan.

They are the only ones FDJ2. The other plans are being eliminated over the next 7 years. DB plans (including Soc. Sec.) were a mistake. Delta is still using a 9% return assumption with the DB plan. The historical average for stocks is only about 7%. In any case, I work for DAL as a pilot and I don't have a DB plan. I am not interested in subsidizing yours anymore. You are welcome to join my plans - they are called "401K" and "Roth".

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


The other new plan is the "cash balance" plan, and that is being challenged in court. IBM tried to pull that, and they lost in court.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,


The other new plan is the "cash balance" plan, and that is being challenged in court. IBM tried to pull that, and they lost in court.

Bye Bye--General Lee

That is what CMR has. The "courts" can't recoup something that isn't there. "Cash balance" plans are more realistic.

 

[FDJ2]

They are the only ones FDJ2. The other plans are being eliminated over the next 7 years.

Inclusive, that's a nice little dance your doing around the facts. The fact is you proclaim that the Delta pilots are the only employee group that has a DB plan, but that is incorrect, since the other employee groups also have a DB plan until 2010. If we have this conversation 6 years from now, you might be correct, but you are patently wrong to state the other employees do not have a DB plan. Feel free to continue to dance, or just accept the fact that you were wrong and move on.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Cinci. Post article

Delta talks worry Comair pilots [font=arial,helvetica]
[font=ARIAL,HELVETICA][font=arial,helvetica]

By Alexander Coolidge
Post staff reporter

Signals from the pilots union that it's ready to reopen negotiations with Delta Air Lines Inc. are raising concerns among some pilots working for the company's regional carriers, including Cincinnati-based Comair Inc.



Regional pilots this week sent an open letter to the head of the national union urging it to oversee Delta negotiations to ensure that their separate union pacts with Comair and Atlantic Southeast Airlines pilots don't become a "bargaining chip" in the talks with Delta pilots.

The regional pilots want to avoid losing any of their benefits just because Delta pilots are considering making concessions to help the financially troubled airline.

Comair and Atlantic Southeast are both wholly-owned regional subsidiaries of the Atlanta-based carrier. Different chapters of the Air Line Pilots Association represent pilots with the three related airlines under different contracts.

"We are keenly aware of how ALPA engaged in 'crisis' bargaining at US Airways," wrote pilots Kenneth Cooksey and Daniel Ford, referring to similar talks at another legacy airline struggling to avoid bankruptcy. "We therefore expect ALPA to take all necessary steps to ensure that its bargaining at Delta is conducted in a manner consistent with its obligations to the ASA and Comair pilots."

Last week, the Delta pilots' union said it had decided to jump-start talks to cut pilots salaries in an effort to help turn the airline around. The news came after five months of stalemate.

Cooksey and Ford are seeking several assurances, including that the union would remove any potential restrictions on growing Comair's and Atlantic Southeast's fleets and geographical operations.

Financially struggling Delta has actually grown its regional carriers' fleets as it shifted dozens of mainline routes to smaller planes to save money.




[/font][/font][/font]