OK, guys, I need some advice. I just got my G-IV Type Rating and I am going to try to find some occasional Part 91 contract SIC gigs. But here's the thing: I have no jet time. I do have about 10,000 TT, 3500 MEL, 2000 Turbo-prop, and a bunch of turbine helo time, and 30+ years of flying experience. What I'd like to get some opinions on is....... how much is a reasonable daily rate for me to charge as a new contract G-IV SIC ? (I am in the SoCal area.) I will not be a low-ball scab type, not going to work for free; I just want to charge a fair rate, and not be over-priced or under-priced. I got a figure from one guy in the insdustry that I respect, but he also urged me to "ask around" ......... so that is what I am doing. Your input will be appreciated.
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Daily contract rate for new G-IV SIC?
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semperfido
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What you are going to charge is probably not what you should be concerned about. If you find anyone willing to hire you then you should just take what they offer and be happy. An "old fart" with no jet experience is not an easy thing to sell a high quality G4 operator. Sorry to be so harsh.
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SIC's around here are getting $600-$700/day. CERTAINLY try to get that, but with no hours on type, I'd take whatever they offered to build the time $300-$400-$500, whatever. PIC is your goal obviously, get there any way you can.
If someone offers you just $300/day, by not doing it just hurts YOU. But I think you'll get at least $500, even from a cheapskate. I occaissonally fly GII/III's and I get $600/day as SIC and I have no type at all on it. So.........
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That's not harsh, just your opinion. Doesn't answer my question though. BTW, what you are suggesting is one of the things wrong with this industry ....... people "taking what they are offered" ........ there are probably lots of people who will work for free just to gain experience. I'm not one of them. I have a lot of aviation and life experience; I have the G-IV Type Rating; I am a highly skilled and qualified aviator and PIC who just happens to lack jet time and time in type. At my level of aviation experience, background and training, there ain't anything magic about a jet ....... it's just another airplane, and so's the G-IV. Suck, squeeze, bang, blow is all the same in a T-prop, turbine helo, or jet. Yeah there's some unique aerodynamics associated with flying a swept wing jet; and some hi-alt aerodynamics and physiology stuff; but most of that is not too much different from flying a t-prop. (Yeah, I know, it is a little more complex, but not that much.)
If I am going to fly SIC in a G-IV (or fly PIC or SIC in anything else, for that matter), the guy who employs me is getting the benefit of all my experience.......... and he is not getting it for free, or for cheap. He's going to get it for fair market value. I will not undercut the other G-IV contract guys........ it ain't right, and it drags everyone down.
So if there is anyone out there that can answer my original question......... seems like a simple question for anyone currently flying in the G-IV world ....... I'd love to hear from you. BTW, I am not old, I was just borne a long time ago.
Its cool you have alot of experience in the aviation industry to bring to the table, but it really isn't going to catapult you to the top of the heap of the Gulfstream world. That, coupled with zero jet time.......you are a true SIC for the GIV. Like I said before, I hope you can get the top pay for SIC right out of the gate with zero time on type, zero jet time on anything, and zero Part 91 turbo-jet experience. BUT.....if you are offered less, you might want to take it and not worry about pissing other pilots off, or you might be sitting on your couch with a type-rating in your hand and a remote control in the other.
I know alot of people flying all the different Gulfstreams, the experienced GIV guys do get the $600-$700 per day as SIC, you might just be offered $300-$400 with zero time/experience on the GIV. The GIV has been tough to jump into for contract guys lately, now that all the new Gulfstreams have been coming out over the last few years. At least around here.
So to answer your question: Do what I did when I did my first Gulfstream flight as an un-typed SIC for a Part 91 operator years ago. I said the owner who asked me if I could do some flights with his captain, "how much will you charge me per day?" I said "the going rate is between $500-$600/day. Seeing as I have thousands of hours of jet PIC but no Gulfstream time, I'll take the lower rate of $500/day for now." I did that for about 10 flights, then it was $600 from there.
AA717driver
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With that attitude (not disputing the veracity of your statement) you will be out the door in a nano-second.
In corporate, the Gulfstream community is the top of the heap. (And the regulars here can save the debate about QOL, pay, etc. You all know what I mean.) You will have to show a fair amount of deference to that fact. Flying a GIV is no big deal. Operating a GIV is.
You are a newbie and should act the part. Your type and experience will get you in the door, but if you don't have the right attitude, you'll be on your a$$ on the street before your resume hits the bottom of the trash can in the Chief's office.
$500 for a typed newbie. $700 for experience. When you get some hours, $1000-$1200 for PIC.
TC
semperfido
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I wish you good luck, but spare me the Depak Chopra talk. You and I were probably born within a few years of each other and in this game, we are indeed considered "old farts", regardless of how old we feel or look. Hey, if I met you and liked you and was in a position to give you a job, I probably would. So go for it. I probably wouldn't pay you the same wage as a highly experienced G pilot, at least not until you proved yourself useful.
siucavflight
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Gulfstream 200
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REALITY --- The industry right now is rather brutal.
Zero time in type, Zero jet time, and this....
I have a lot of aviation and life experience; I have the G-IV Type Rating; I am a highly skilled and qualified aviator and PIC who just happens to lack jet time and time in type. At my level of aviation experience, background and training, there ain't anything magic about a jet ....... it's just another airplane, and so's the G-IV. Suck, squeeze, bang, blow is all the same in a T-prop, turbine helo, or jet. Yeah there's some unique aerodynamics associated with flying a swept wing jet; and some hi-alt aerodynamics and physiology stuff; but most of that is not too much different from flying a t-prop. (Yeah, I know, it is a little more complex, but not that much.)
Like others said....not disputing what you sorta say...but that attitude may be hard to sell these days.
Good Luck!
Zero time in type, Zero jet time, and this....
I have a lot of aviation and life experience; I have the G-IV Type Rating; I am a highly skilled and qualified aviator and PIC who just happens to lack jet time and time in type. At my level of aviation experience, background and training, there ain't anything magic about a jet ....... it's just another airplane, and so's the G-IV. Suck, squeeze, bang, blow is all the same in a T-prop, turbine helo, or jet. Yeah there's some unique aerodynamics associated with flying a swept wing jet; and some hi-alt aerodynamics and physiology stuff; but most of that is not too much different from flying a t-prop. (Yeah, I know, it is a little more complex, but not that much.)
Like others said....not disputing what you sorta say...but that attitude may be hard to sell these days.
Good Luck!
siucavflight
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I see Gulfstream 200, you are criticizing his attitude.
Being humble will take you far in the corporate world. In my interview for the G-550 I was asked if I thought I was a great pilot, to that I answered "I dont really know what qualifies someone as a great pilot. I can fly but I honestly think that my skills are average, but everything that I do and every decision I make has safety as the most important factor, but I can assure you I am a hell of a golfer!" This answer honestly is what I believe sealed the deal for me, as the gentleman interviewing me smiled and seemed to lighten up a little bit, we then spent the next 30 minutes pretty much shooting the sh!t about golf.
Being humble will take you far in the corporate world. In my interview for the G-550 I was asked if I thought I was a great pilot, to that I answered "I dont really know what qualifies someone as a great pilot. I can fly but I honestly think that my skills are average, but everything that I do and every decision I make has safety as the most important factor, but I can assure you I am a hell of a golfer!" This answer honestly is what I believe sealed the deal for me, as the gentleman interviewing me smiled and seemed to lighten up a little bit, we then spent the next 30 minutes pretty much shooting the sh!t about golf.
Gulfstream 200
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Cant really say "criticizing" per say...
Just giving the OPINION that one might have a hard time selling that reasoning in todays market - there are plenty of experienced, networking contract guys who cant find enough work.
The original poster seems new to corporate - zero time in jets, etc.
His approach many just need some work, especially right now.....and the above were just suggestions.
Good Luck to him either way.
AA717driver
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SIU--I think it's just being 'to the point'. Having been around this board for 7 or 8 years, you get over treating people with kid gloves--because this business certainly doesn't.
Nothing personal to anyone (unless they prove themselves to be, ahem, a d!ck...).
Fido and G200 have been in corporate for a LONG time and have buckets of credibility. IMO, they have yet to steer someone wrong.
How's your job pursuit going? Hopefully well. TC
semperfido
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You should be getting from $500-750 per day as a G IV crew Member. There are certainly many variables considering the type of operator you get to work with. I think you may have hindered yourself by getting the type rating first instead of finding an operator who would allow you to get typed on their certificate. Anyway, what's done is done, best of luck to you.
Diesel
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I charge 1000 a day. PIC or SIC doesn't matter its the same rate because I can operate as a PIC.
With NO jet time and NO gulfstream time your chances of getting in the door are slim. Your only chance would be to undercut everyone else and when someone asks me why my rate is so high (average for the NE) when they can get someone at 1/3 the rate I say you get what you pay for.
There is a problem with NO jet time. You might find employers might assume with your total time that you forgot to put it in your resume so you want to be upfront with it. I do know that when the ********************e hits the fan I'll pick up the sticks. And I'm not talking about in the air. I'm talking about ground ops. I already know what to do when a converter fan fails, or how to add oil, or how to troubleshoot a gremlin. That is where the aircraft experience comes in especially on the back side of the world.
So in reality your total time doesn't mean a thing. So that means that your no jet time and no gulfstream time is going to put you at the bottom of the callback list.
Hopefully your can do attitude, willingness to forget everything about brand X or where you came from, and ability to play nice with others will make up for it.
Good luck but you have a tough hill to climb. I gotta ask though how did you get 10000hrs with no jet time?
With NO jet time and NO gulfstream time your chances of getting in the door are slim. Your only chance would be to undercut everyone else and when someone asks me why my rate is so high (average for the NE) when they can get someone at 1/3 the rate I say you get what you pay for.
There is a problem with NO jet time. You might find employers might assume with your total time that you forgot to put it in your resume so you want to be upfront with it. I do know that when the ********************e hits the fan I'll pick up the sticks. And I'm not talking about in the air. I'm talking about ground ops. I already know what to do when a converter fan fails, or how to add oil, or how to troubleshoot a gremlin. That is where the aircraft experience comes in especially on the back side of the world.
So in reality your total time doesn't mean a thing. So that means that your no jet time and no gulfstream time is going to put you at the bottom of the callback list.
Hopefully your can do attitude, willingness to forget everything about brand X or where you came from, and ability to play nice with others will make up for it.
Good luck but you have a tough hill to climb. I gotta ask though how did you get 10000hrs with no jet time?
He's got 3,500 ME and 2,000 turbo-prop, so 1,500 of the 3,500 is probably in pistons multi's. I'm also wondering how you get to 10,000 without ever touching a fixed-wing jet aircraft.
I do have a friend who had 7,500 TT and only 300 hours of that was ME piston....he was a banner tower for a decade :lol:
He got lucky and got into a Gulfstream II for his first jet job. 4 years later he's still an SIC in the GII.
Diesel
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