CVR? can the DO pull it at any time?

[SlapShot]

Some airlines have something that is called a Flight Operations Quality Assurance Program. This program calls for periodic downloading of CVRs and/or FDRs to identify deficiencies in an airline’s operation. This program is in place with approximately 13 US airlines.

The DO may have used this as an excuse to download the information.

However the information obtained via a FOQAP is protected from disclosure under 49 U.S.C. 40123 and part 193.

 

[classof75]

slapshot, thank you for an actual refrnc......

Is that an faa or ntsb deal?
How should I call about it (other than the union and the poi)
As far as I know we are not one of those 13 airlines.
The DO has the "hots" for firing this captain and decided to pull the cvr to see if he could find anything. He found something so he felt justified in trying usable evidence.

The captain is not a bad pilot/captain...just average like the rest of us.

thanks again

 

[SlapShot]

Well that actual FOQAP is a FAA thing.

I am not sure you should call your POI about it. If the DO wants to fire the guy, I would imagine he did do something incorrect. I am not sure if you (a line pilot) should draw attention to it.

The FAA reference about the FOQAP is FAA Advisory Circular 120.82

 

[classof75]

perfect.

I agree calling the poi would be a bad move on my part.

thanks again.
I will update this post as the story hopefully develops

 

[canyonblue737]

Trying to follow the thread...should this say: "nothing in the FAR's....which would prevent your company....


I'm thrown by the 'doesn't allow'

sorry i was unclear. as far as i am aware any company has the basic right to pull CVRs and DFDRs and use there information as they see fit, including actions against crews up to termination.

now at MOST companies they either A) have written into a collective bargining agreement that information from CVRs/DFDRs can NOT be used against pilots or B) they will not use information on CVRs/DFDRs on principle since it might create an unnecessary adversarial relationship with pilots. if at the first poster's company that don't have A. and don't believe in B. then the pilots could be out of luck. The best strategy might be to get the pilot group as a whole to complain about such tactics.

 

[classof75]

canyonblue....
We have A in our contract.
B not there....
Thanks for the input

 

[canyonblue737]

The answer is no. These are very protected recordings and while flight data can be looked at by the carrier the cvr data may not. I think only the NTSB can and then the FAA but only for accident investigation purposes. The NTSB defines acidents. Your DO will have to find another reason to fire the guy. Personally I would love to be fired for unathorized cvr data. If you are not a union carrier I would contact an attorney.

I don't think you are right. The FAA can NOT use CVR data to go after pilots but airlines DO have the right to pull and use CVR info against pilots. The reason this is hard to believe is because hardly ANY airline does so. The vast majority have union contracts that forbid it. Nearly all the rest simply won't do it on principle. But you certainly can pull CVR data, at my last company they pulled the CVR and DFDR and listened to the tapes after nearly every declared emergency to improve training and help the pilots with any improvements they could have used. They would NOT use it to punish the pilots but that was company principle, not because they couldn't. at my current carrier they can't because of the union contract forbidding it.

 

[canyonblue737]

canyonblue....
We have A in our contract.
B not there....
Thanks for the input

if that's the case grieve it, i doubt the pilots can be touched.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Weather companies can or cant pull the CVR tapes shouldnt be the question. It should not be allowed by your company period! End of story!

The CVR was put into thew cockpit for accident investigation purposes only. That was why they were allowed to be installed in the first place. If the CVR starts getting abused by your company,the judge or media, they should then be removed ASAP!

Then you have judges playing the Pilots last words/screams into the CVR just prior to a crash for the media to hear and put on CNN. Total Bull$hit!

I was told by some old timers at the pub many years ago that in the old days when the CVRs were first installed they put them on the lower center counsel. The story goes that the Captain would order 2 cups of coffee on the first leg every morning. One he would drink and the other one he would pour down the speaker of the CVR! They then had to move the CVRs to the ceiling to stop it.

Now they want TV cameras in the cockpit so when something happens, in the heat of battle. You will have a friggin lawyer analizing every move you make in slow motion to Hang your A$$! No Thanks..........If this is ever allowed to happen it will be a very sad day.

 

[bafanguy]

there was an inoperative instrument which the crew did not detect until after starting the take off role....the captain elected to continue the take off.

Kind of an interesting story...in a kind of frightening, Orwellian way. Can you tell us what the instrument in question was ? And what the MEL says about that instrument ? And what your MEL says about when it ( the MEL ) is binding ?

The last MEL I operated under contained the statement in the preamble that the MEL applied "...until the throttles were advanced for the purpose of taking off ( the takeoff event )."

There is some room for "discussion" about just what that means, I suppose ( I'm not trying to start that discussion, by the way ). But, I'd be interested to know the details of the case you describe. Witch hunts are unfortunate.

Sometimes I'm sad to be retired...sometimes I'm glad to be retired. Tonight: I'm glad.