Cross-Controlled Stalls

BradG

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Can anyone tell me the proper procedure for demonstrating a cross-controlled stall? I have my CFI ride next week, and ive never done one. Thanks

Brad
 

bobbysamd

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Cross-control stalls

Do your clearing turns. Then, apply aileron against rudder and apply back elevator. Similar in a few respects to a spin entry. The purpose is to demonstrate what happens if you botch the turn from base to final and kick in extra rudder to swing the nose around, rather than steepening the turn (or going around!!).

Open up your Flight Training Handbook or its FAA replacement for more info.

I never heard of cross-control stalls having to be demonstrated on a CFI ride. You might go over it with your instructor before trying it yourself.

Good luck with your practical.
 
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FlyinBrian

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Demonstrate it as it would actually happen on the base to final turn. Bring the throttle back and enter a left turn, explain to the student that you're overshooting final, so to try to get the nose around quicker, you start to add left rudder. Then you start to roll out (right aileron.) Now you're cross controlled, and the extra drag is slowing you down. When I demonstrate it, I go ahead and do a half turn in a spin entry, and show the student how much altitude is lost during the half turn. It's usually enought to put you six feet BGL from the altitude that you'd be turning final at.
 

cvsfly

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Is this new in any PTS? Sounds like an excellant way to enter a spin. I would suggest demonstrating it only at sufficient altitude and emphasize to your students not to practice this on solo flights. Not saying it doesn't have value in training, but just be careful.
 

surfnole

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Assume you are in left hand traffic turning base to final and you are too high. It is proper procedure to use right rudder to speed the descent, but left rudder is where you can have problems with the cross-controlled stall. Is this correct?
 

tarp

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From the PTS:

C. TASK: CROSSED-CONTROL STALLS
(DEMONSTRATION) (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: AC 60-14, AC 61-21;
FAA-S-8081-1, FAA-S-8081-2; Pilot's Operating
Handbook, FAA-Approved Airplane Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits instructional knowledge of the elements of
crossed-control stalls, with the landing gear
extended, by describing -(
a) aerodynamics of crossed-control stalls.
(b) effects of crossed controls in gliding or
reduced airspeed descending turns.
(c) hazards of crossed controls in a base leg to
final approach turn.
(d) entry technique and minimum entry altitude.
(e) recognition of crossed-control stalls.
(f) flight situations where unintentional crossed-control
stalls may occur.
(g) recovery technique and minimum recovery
altitude.
2. Exhibits instructional knowledge of common errors
related to crossed-control stalls, with the landing
gear extended, by describing -(
a) failure to establish selected configuration prior
to entry.
(b) failure to establish a crossed-control turn and
stall condition that will adequately demonstrate
the hazards of a crossed-control stall.
(c) improper or inadequate demonstration of the
recognition of and recovery from a crossed-control
stall.
(d) failure to present simulated student instruction
that adequately emphasizes the hazards of a
crossed-control condition in a gliding or
reduced airspeed condition.
3. Demonstrates and simultaneously explains a
crossed-control stall, with the landing gear
extended, from an instructional standpoint.
4. Analyzes and corrects simulated common errors
related to a crossed-control stall with the landing
gear extended.
D. TASK: ELEVATOR TRIM STALLS (DEMONSTRATION)
(ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: AC 60-14, AC 61-21;
FAA-S-8081-1, FAA-S-8081-2; Pilot's Operating
Handbook, FAA-Approved Airplane Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits instructional knowledge of the elements of
elevator trim stalls, in selected landing gear and
flap configurations, by describing -(
a) aerodynamics of elevator trim stalls.
(b) hazards of inadequate control pressures to
compensate for thrust, torque, and up-elevator
trim during go-arounds and other related
maneuvers.
(c) entry technique and minimum entry altitude.
(d) recognition of elevator trim stalls.
(e) importance of recovering from an elevator trim
stall immediately upon recognition.
(f) flight situations where elevator trim stalls
occur.
(g) recovery technique and minimum recovery
altitude.
2. Exhibits instructional knowledge of common errors
related to elevator trim stalls, in selected landing
gear and flap configurations, by describing -(
a) failure to establish selected configuration prior
to entry.
(b) failure to establish the thrust, torque, and up-elevator
trim conditions that will result in a
realistic demonstration.
(c) improper or inadequate demonstration of the
recognition of and the recovery from an
elevator trim stall.

Please note that these manuevers are "demonstrations" rather than "proficiency" item. You should not be ignorant of them but you don't have to fly them like the ace of the base.

That said, find a competent CFI who isn't afraid of slipping an airplane and go out and have a blast!
 

partialpanel

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I had to demo the cross-controlled stall on my CFI ride, even though I explained to the DE that for three weeks leading up to the test I had asked several flight instructors at my school to do them with me. None of them would. They all said I wouldn't have to do them because it's a spin entry/dangerous. The DE told me I had two choices: demo or discontinue. I did the first one by the book except that I recovered before the stall actually broke. The DE said, "You call that a stall?! You get one more try." I repeated the entire process. I pointed out my hypothetical runway, called the abeam, turned base, explained that I was distracted and overshooting final, cheating with "bottom" rudder to tighten the turn and shallowing the bank with opposite aileron, power gradually to idle, back-pressure...back-pressure...snap! The Arrow did exactly what it should have; entered the incipient phase of a spin "over the top". I barried the left rudder and pushed the nose over and recovered. No pink slip.
 

Timebuilder

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3500 to 4000 agl sounds like a good idea. Of course, don't go to the ride having never done one of these. Practice with your CFI instructor, as long as he has done them!!
 

cvsfly

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Ahh! CFI PTS - that makes sense. Its been awhile since I saw those.
 

YODA

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A crossed control stall is simple to demo, first explain that it is nothing more than an an improperly trained pilots reaction to an overshoot of the runway centerline. Instead of steepening the bank to correct or just go-around they tend to use the rudder to increase the rate of turn (swing it around). The opposite rudder input makes the outer wing move faster than the inner wing creating more lift and then, an overbanking tendency. Back pressure has to be maintained in order to keep the pitch attitude which will result in a crossed controlled stall.
Demo:
1. Clearing turns
2. Start reducing power (depends on airplane).
3. If gear is retractable then lower it.
4. Close the throttle
5. Attain normal glide speed (final approach).
6. Do not extend flaps because the limitations might be exceeded.
7. Establish a medium bank turn say 30 degrees (sim base to final).
8. Apply excessive (almost full) rudder pressure in the direction of turn.
9. Try to maintain the 30 degree bank angle, ( the only way is to add opposite aileron to compensate for the overbanking tendency).
10. The nose will begin to drop so add a slight amount of back pressure.
11. At the first sign of a stall warning (buffet, warning horn, anything, recover!!)
12. Use coordinated control inputs to recover, do not let it fully develop or you will be training spin recovery a little earlier than you thought.
Hope this helps -YODA
 

bobbysamd

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Cross-control stalls

Excellent comments above. Once again, to the best of my recollection, I never had any of my several CFI students come back and tell me they had to demo a cross-control stall.

Better to be prepared than not, though, especially after reading Partial Panel's experience.
 

partialpanel

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Just wanted to add that, if my memory serves me correctly, I did not deploy any flaps for the cross-controlled stall demo for fear of exceeding Vfe on the recovery. The DE had no problem with this.
 

rumpletumbler

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I've done them in a 172RG in prep for the CFI and it's a non-event. You can hold it in the stall and it just kind of bucks a little bit like a mechanical bull running on 2 AAA batteries. Pipers as stated above behave differently. The thing that gets me is that in doing these in Pipers is very likely to get you into a spin if you don't recover promptly and all the Pipers other than the Tommyhawk aren't certified for spins. The Tommyhawk on the other hand spins to well to suit me.

RT
 

tarp

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I think the FAA has done their job too well - I hear a lot of fear of spins out there.

It is true, Pipers are hard in the spin (Cherokee's, Lances, etc.) but they are also hard to get into a spin. It takes an awful lot of rotational force to make an Indian spin. More than likely everyone, though has had the excessive wing drop and the possibility that the Cherokee is going to enter a steep spiral (difference - spin = wing is stalled and airspeed negligible, spiral = wing is not stalled and airspeed rapidly increases). Recovery is a piece of cake as long as you just center the controls and pull up to the horizon.

X-controlled stalls are non-events in any airplane as long as YOU have command of the airplane. It is basically a slip with a stall added. Yes the rudder must be coordinated with the aileron inputs - if you are going for your CFI, you have your commercial rating and hopefully have figured this out by now.

As a CFI, people are going to try and kill you just about every week. Your job is to know the plane with comfort that you can keep this from happening. I have had lots of wing drops, lots of (unintentional) x-controlled stall entries, lots of incipients. If your spin training scared the heck out of you, go back to a competent CFI and spin your brains out until you realize it is just one more maneuver that the airplane can do. And yes, even though Piper's lawyers put a placard up there to remove liability, Cherokees will spin and they will come out of a spin. In fact, I think the reason for the rough ride is that darn Piper wing wants to recover and hates the stupid guy keeping full rudder and full back pressure. PS, as to the tail staying on - I'd rather spin a Cherokee any day before a Traumahawk.
 

DC9stick

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The thing that gets me is that in doing these in Pipers is very likely to get you into a spin if you don't recover promptly and all the Pipers other than the Tommyhawk aren't certified for spins. The Tommyhawk on the other hand spins to well to suit me.

The Cherokee 140 is certified for spins as long as it's 1( not airconditioned and 2) Within the utility category CG and weight limits.

I've done many spins in a 140 they don't like it and are fairly difficult to get a good entry. Recovery is normally immeadiate after application of opposite rudder and forward yoke.
 
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