CRJ200 v1 cut advice

[avbug]

That is the WORST thing to do in the CRJ sim. It flies like dirt. V1 cut is really, really, simple in the RJ as long as you do two things. After the cut keep it on the runway for 3+ seconds after the cut occurs. No where does your book say rotation has to be at Vr, it has to be AFTER vr, keep it on the runway to establish the rudder pressure needed to keep it straight, then SLOWLY rotate the aircraft. Run your v1 cut procedures and turn on the auto pilot ASAP. Then do NOT trim out the rudder, just keep some pressure on there. If you trim it out, every time you make a power adjustment you will have to make a trip adjustment, so don't trim it and rather use that time to worry about the automation. If you takeoff straight and stabilized the v1 cut in the RJ is easy and painless.

What on earth are you talking about? You responded to a quote regarding the use of automation by going on about the obvious. I stated that during a missed approach, when one is having trouble flying the airplane, get rid of the automation and hand fly it. You responded by saying that's exactly the wrong thing to do, and then went off on a completely different tangent. Drinking today?

Two issues have been raised here. One involves a V1 cut on the runway, and the other involves executing a missed approach with the autopilot.

In the case of a missed approach with the autopilot, if one is having troubles, then there's only one requirement; fly the airplane. Period. If automation is kicking your butt, get rid of it and handfly. Period. Yes, that's the right thing to do.

So far as a V1 cut...obviously one doesn't rotate prior to Vr. One does NOT need to engage the autopilot as soon as possible; if you can fly the profile without it, fine, but don't use it as a crutch. You're a pilot, not a button pusher. Exercise some competence, and fly the airplane. If you can't do that without automation, you have absolutely NO business in the cockpit. Period.

 

[n757st]

What on earth are you talking about? You responded to a quote regarding the use of automation by going on about the obvious. I stated that during a missed approach, when one is having trouble flying the airplane, get rid of the automation and hand fly it. You responded by saying that's exactly the wrong thing to do, and then went off on a completely different tangent. Drinking today?

Two issues have been raised here. One involves a V1 cut on the runway, and the other involves executing a missed approach with the autopilot.

In the case of a missed approach with the autopilot, if one is having troubles, then there's only one requirement; fly the airplane. Period. If automation is kicking your butt, get rid of it and handfly. Period. Yes, that's the right thing to do.

So far as a V1 cut...obviously one doesn't rotate prior to Vr. One does NOT need to engage the autopilot as soon as possible; if you can fly the profile without it, fine, but don't use it as a crutch. You're a pilot, not a button pusher. Exercise some competence, and fly the airplane. If you can't do that without automation, you have absolutely NO business in the cockpit. Period.

The entire quote was not meant for you there sport. I was just imputing my opinion AFTER I responded to you. During a missed approach though I would personally not turn off the automation... the sim flies like crap and you are only hurting yourself by not using it. Not using the autopilot as much as possible is a big reason a lot of people fail at my airline, use it as soon as possible. I don't know if you have flown a CRJ-200 sim, but from my experience hand flying the thing when you don't have to is NOT what you want to be doing.

 

[avbug]

Not using the autopilot as much as possible is a big reason a lot of people fail at my airline, use it as soon as possible.

Perhaps they need to hire people who can fly airplanes, instead of relying on letting the airplane fly them.

I don't know if you have flown a CRJ-200 sim,

I have. Not impressed.

but from my experience hand flying the thing when you don't have to is NOT what you want to be doing.

It's not a matter of having to. It's a matter of being able to. The original poster stated that he was having difficulty. He went so far as to describe being unable to keep the airplane on the runway, and having difficulties flying a missed approach with the autopilot.

If one is having difficulties with the automation, get rid of the automation. Go back to the skills you had BETTER have in the first place, and do your job as a pilot. Retain control and make the airplane do what you want it to do.

 

[brian041102]

Correct me if im wrong but balance field relies on you rotating at vr in order to meet obstacle clearance. This is what i was told when I remained on the runway after vr for a few extra seconds.

 

[MJ42]

Correct me if im wrong but balance field relies on you rotating at vr in order to meet obstacle clearance. This is what i was told when I remained on the runway after vr for a few extra seconds.

Sort of, but n757st is wrong...bad advice. Initiate rotation at V1 to achieve V2 at the screen height(35ft dry runway-screen ht less for wet rwy). Otherwise your performance calculations are not valid. Now to the thread question(hope this portrays accurate when I submit the post):

|​

/ \
|
|
|
< -----/ \----- >
|
|
|
|
_
|_|

|
|​

If my drawing worked...draw an imaginary line from sky pointer to airplane to heading indicator(presuming your missed does not have an initial turn). Keep everything in line. Keep pitch constant to maintain V2-hold pitch there!!!

Practice this technique then if you need to initiate a turn on a SE missed you will be able to put it all together. Good luck.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I think my issue is that I over react or rush through the recovery with less than stellar results.

No need to rush through it. Think of how bad the thing climbs on 2 engines. Now take one away with a failure and you'll have time to finish that suduko puzzle before you're 1000' AGL.

 

[Kenny]

Initiate rotation at V1 to achieve V2 at the screen height(35ft dry runway-screen ht less for wet rwy

That's a mis-print right??

Have you ever taken off with an operationaly required, reduced V1? There are situations where there can be at least 10kts difference between V1 and Vr. To start rotation at V1 is not a smart thing to do.

 

[MJ42]

That's a mis-print right??

Have you ever taken off with an operationaly required, reduced V1? There are situations where there can be at least 10kts difference between V1 and Vr. To start rotation at V1 is not a smart thing to do.

Yeah, I meant Vr. Sorry.

 

[Kenny]

No worries, really wasn't trying to be an arse.

 

[MJ42]

No worries, really wasn't trying to be an arse.

Nope, good catch on the misprint. A fellow former CASA 212 guy can't be an arse.:beer:

 

[n757st]

Well, I guess I am corrected and I will admit when I am wrong. I am just talking about flying the sim, it works well to keep it on the runway, in real world you will not possibly have obstacle clearance. That said, I will stick with my opinion on hand flying the sim, if the examiner has not told you to hand fly it, then use the autopilot.

 

[MJ42]

Well, I guess I am corrected and I will admit when I am wrong. I am just talking about flying the sim, it works well to keep it on the runway, in real world you will not possibly have obstacle clearance. That said, I will stick with my opinion on hand flying the sim, if the examiner has not told you to hand fly it, then use the autopilot.

Understandable, but what you do in the sim carries over to the real world. Slippery advice just to handle a V1 cut or SE missed. Most likely when you get to the missed approach the A/P will have been disconnected anyway. The initial part of the missed will be hand flown.

I understand your "do what it takes to pass the maneuver" theory in the sim, just don't agree. Learn it right the first time then carry it over to real world flying.

 

[svcta]

To the original poster: It sounds like things are starting off badly with your PM "yelling ENGINE FAILURE!!" First of all, tell him/her to calm down. Just tell me in your calmest voice "Hey, man, two's rolling back" or something. Unless of course your company tells you something different.

The others are correct, just do everything in slow motion, and in order to pass your sim ride and generally survive in the 121 world, don't be afraid of the automation. Learn it, lean on it when you can, but of course NEVER be afraid to turn it off when you're ahead of the airplane and the automation is tripping things up.

Yes, you should be able to fly an airplane or even the sim when things are going badly, but check your profiles: they will call for application of the AP at a certain altitude. 600 ft if I remember correctly from my CRJ days. So stay in the profile if you can and life will be grand.

Regarding S.E. go-arounds: for the love of god don't do anything quickly. In any airplane. That's pretty much the name of the game in any 2 engine airplane with only 1 running, no different in jets. Some people around here get all worked up when someone mentions staying on the runway a few knots past Vr, but you DO NOT have to horse the airplane in to the air just because the person next to you gave permission to do it. You and your pax will be better served in most cases by waiting until you've got things under control before committing to the air. Now, waiting a little longer as you remain early in your sim training will allow you to hone down your reaction to the point of near normalcy, but never be afraid to slow down when things are getting weird.

I generally agree with most of avbug's posts, but just because he's flown a CRJ sim and wasn't impressed doesn't mean that he should dictate policy to someone trying to pass a 121 PC. I agree about what you SHOULD be able to do, but you are training....and that will come later(but hopefully not much later), stick with your profiles when you can, but fly the airplane first.

To depart the idealistic world of flying and piloting for the world of checkride etiquette, I routinely see people that fly too long in the sim before asking for the AP. Here's the philosophy: Never go faster than 200 until the guy in the back tells you that you must, and never hand fly until they fail the AP.

 

[avbug]

stick with your profiles when you can, but fly the airplane first.

Which, if you read again, is exactly what I said.

If one is having trouble controlling the airplane through automation, then get it out of the way and fly the airplane, because there is no higher priority.

Fly the airplane.

 

[learflyer]

Step on the ball (or "brick", whatever the crj has) and keep you're leg in there! I'm a sim instructor, and have seen so many folks pushing that rudder in and out until you don't know where in the heck you're at! Don't steer with the ailerons/spoilers until well into your third segment. Only then should you relax that leg and have some altitude and speed built up! Also on a single engine, whenever you move that throttle, you've got to put in/take out that rudder trim to compensate. "move the throttle, move the rudder trim."