CRJ200 v1 cut advice

[Vavso]

Hi all I need some advice /tips on taming the v1 cut in the crj200. I think my issue is that I over react or rush through the recovery with less than stellar results . Aside from the pilot monitoring yelling ENGINE FAILURE what do you as PF see and how do you respond to the initial issues that come with the engine loss. Aside from veering off centerline and the brick shifting . I had one on a Go around last week and it was ugly. Thanks all.

 

[Kenny]

Some tips that get me through my PC's:

DON'T OVER-REACT!

Use as much rudder as you need to keep the aircraft heading in a straight line down the runway.

Don't rotate the instant Vr is called. Count a second, then.........

Rotate smoothly, whilst looking outside, slowly increasing the amount of rudder required to keep the aircraft nose aligned with the runway. This where most people start the spastic oscillations that unlimately end up with a blur of elbows and yoke movement because they transfer instantly to the instruments.

Once you've got as much rudder as need to keep the thing under control, transfer to the instruments and don't chase the flight director.

After that small adjustments and don't forget to keep the pressure on the rudder when you engage the A/P. At least until you dial in the rudder trim.

I know most of this is obvious and may not be the techniques that others use but it's worked for me.

Good luck.

 

[Vavso]

Thanks for the info...

I wish the v1 cut at v1-vr was the problem ...... The real headache came when the cut came at mda after the toga buttons pushed and go around started Vavso

 

[avbug]

Hi all I need some advice /tips on taming the v1 cut in the crj200. I think my issue is that I over react or rush through the recovery with less than stellar results . Aside from the pilot monitoring yelling ENGINE FAILURE what do you as PF see and how do you respond to the initial issues that come with the engine loss. Aside from veering off centerline and the brick shifting . I had one on a Go around last week and it was ugly. Thanks all.

I don't care if it's a CRJ or a Lear or a King Air. What do you do? Nothing. Fly the airplane, don't do anything differently. Fast hands kill. Go rushing to do something, you'll make a mess. Do things methodically, one at a time, in no big rush, and don't let anybody rush you.

You shouldn't be veering off anywhere. That's what the rudder is for. The floppy things on the floor down by your feet. Push one of them. If you don't like what it does, push the other.

Ailerons. You have a pair. Use them when you use the rudder. If you're getting a cut at V1, you're above Vmcg and Vmca...you shouldn't be departing the runway. rotate to your target pitch, climb out at V2 (or as your company policy dictates), and don't do anything bizarre, fast, or unusual. The key to handling an emergency is to make it routine.

 

[OPECJet]

Haven't flown a CRJ but during my X training, and I think this will apply, don't engage the autopilot until you've leveled off, reduced power on the good engine, and TRIMMED the rudder pressure out.

Other than flying the airplane and keeping the thing going in a straight line, I don't know what to tell you. Could be that you're not using enough rudder, and not soon enough if you're leaving the sides of the runway.

If you're having trouble during a single engine rejected landing, it's possible that you're not using the rudder properly.

Just keep it simple and stick to the basics. Use the rudder to keep it going straight, and the ailerons to keep the wings level.

It ain't rocket surgery.

 

[Kenny]

Opec,

Part of the problem is that most CRJ operators will teach new-hires with no previous 121 experience to engage the A/P as soon as SOP's allow. Part of the reasoning being that it'll decrease the workload.

So apart from a couple of maneuvers and the very last part of an approach they'll not have much of a chance to hand-fly the sim. And therefore not be as experienced with the nuances sim flying. All the CRJ sims I've been in (DEN,MEM,YUL & CLT) have had far more twitchy rudders than the actual aircraft.

I once had a new-hire with very heavy feet watch how much the pedals moved when his partner had a V1 cut and it was only about an inch or two.

Vavso,

Try this: Switch off the FD and see if things improve. If it does, you're chasing the FD.

 

[AWACoff]

Be smooth on the power increase on the good engine during the engine out go around. Be smooth on your rudder application while increasing power on the good engine. Relax. The best part about engine out training in the sim is that everything happens in slow motion due to the reduced climb rate.

 

[rumrnr78]

Be smooth on the power increase on the good engine during the engine out go around. Be smooth on your rudder application while increasing power on the good engine. Relax. The best part about engine out training in the sim is that everything happens in slow motion due to the reduced climb rate.

Very good advise! Also, Vavso, I want you to write down and memorize your profiles. Chair fly as much as you can stand. As one ASA instructor said, "single-engine missed is a V1 cut with a running start."
I want you to have note cards in your hands with the profiles listed step by step. You should be reviewing these cards consistently! I know, in the computer age it sounds archaic, but note cards are vital. I keep mine in my book bag to use for reference during long legs. And, 30 days prior to a training event, they come out and I live with them right up to the day before my ride!
Aircraft control is probably not the problem as much as not having the steps down cold. A key to this is that your rushing. When you know the steps you will be relaxed.
A tip to you and others, study your jepp charts! If you know what airport you will be using the next day in the sim get the charts out and study them! As an example, know the missed approach procedure; what will be your acceleration height? Will you use heading mode initially? Or can you use FMS needles initially,etc, etc.

Cheers- Rum

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

The Days of Flying airplanes is over..................

 

[Capt10Matt]

There really isn't a lot of yaw in the 200 on a V1 cut. A little rudder goes a long way.

My technique is to correct with that little rudder that is needed during the cut, and rather than have that relatively fast rotation like you would when doing a normal takeoff, it doesn't hurt to get your control together and stay on the runway a second longer before you yank the nose into the sky. Look down the runway, and bring the nose up once you've stabilized the amount of rudder you need initially. Try focusing on just maintaining the centerline all the way through the rotation until you can't see it anymore.

As far as go arounds are concerned, they usually give you 100-200ft so make it smooth and rush nothing. Click the togas and expect the rudder pressure to change with any and every power/speed change so keep an eye on that brick. Get a stabilized climb straight ahead before you think about going from green to white needles for the missed. One thing at a time!

Don't rush, be relaxed and methodical and that oughta keep the screen white and not red .

 

[acaTerry]

Kenny is right. I went from Jetstreams to CRJ and what a difference. The jetstream 32 took ALL the rudder and still didn't behave, the 41 took most of the rudder and then the CRJ...well, the best way to put it is curl your big toe. That was the key for me. Once I settled down and got rid of my "prop feet" it all came together beautifully and V1 cuts were a yawner.

 

[avbug]

If you're getting behind the airplane with automation, then kick off the autopilot and hand fly it. Your job is to stay in control, and keep that foremost in your mind.

 

[Basil]

Here's a way of thinking that helped me when going Missed Approach with a Single Engine...

Understand that the position of the thrust levers will mirror the position of the rudder pedals. For example, if you are flying a single-engine ILS with a failed left engine, the left thrust lever will be back, the right thrust lever and right rudder pedal wil be forward. As you make power adjustments, this relationship will continue. Pushing the right thrust lever forward will require pushing the right rudder pedal forward, and vice-versa.

Should you execute a Go-Around, it then becomes easy to realize that as you increase the right engine thrust, you will increase the pressure on the right rudder pedal.

Doing this slowly and simultaneously will help you lead the rudder application and avoid the ugly process of adding power, watching the aircraft yaw, then trying to stop the yaw with late rudder.

Hopefully this will help.

 

[McNugent]

don't crash

 

[n757st]

If you're getting behind the airplane with automation, then kick off the autopilot and hand fly it. Your job is to stay in control, and keep that foremost in your mind.

That is the WORST thing to do in the CRJ sim. It flies like dirt. V1 cut is really, really, simple in the RJ as long as you do two things. After the cut keep it on the runway for 3+ seconds after the cut occurs. No where does your book say rotation has to be at Vr, it has to be AFTER vr, keep it on the runway to establish the rudder pressure needed to keep it straight, then SLOWLY rotate the aircraft. Run your v1 cut procedures and turn on the auto pilot ASAP. Then do NOT trim out the rudder, just keep some pressure on there. If you trim it out, every time you make a power adjustment you will have to make a trip adjustment, so don't trim it and rather use that time to worry about the automation. If you takeoff straight and stabilized the v1 cut in the RJ is easy and painless.

 

[avbug]

That is the WORST thing to do in the CRJ sim. It flies like dirt. V1 cut is really, really, simple in the RJ as long as you do two things. After the cut keep it on the runway for 3+ seconds after the cut occurs. No where does your book say rotation has to be at Vr, it has to be AFTER vr, keep it on the runway to establish the rudder pressure needed to keep it straight, then SLOWLY rotate the aircraft. Run your v1 cut procedures and turn on the auto pilot ASAP. Then do NOT trim out the rudder, just keep some pressure on there. If you trim it out, every time you make a power adjustment you will have to make a trip adjustment, so don't trim it and rather use that time to worry about the automation. If you takeoff straight and stabilized the v1 cut in the RJ is easy and painless.

What on earth are you talking about? You responded to a quote regarding the use of automation by going on about the obvious. I stated that during a missed approach, when one is having trouble flying the airplane, get rid of the automation and hand fly it. You responded by saying that's exactly the wrong thing to do, and then went off on a completely different tangent. Drinking today?

Two issues have been raised here. One involves a V1 cut on the runway, and the other involves executing a missed approach with the autopilot.

In the case of a missed approach with the autopilot, if one is having troubles, then there's only one requirement; fly the airplane. Period. If automation is kicking your butt, get rid of it and handfly. Period. Yes, that's the right thing to do.

So far as a V1 cut...obviously one doesn't rotate prior to Vr. One does NOT need to engage the autopilot as soon as possible; if you can fly the profile without it, fine, but don't use it as a crutch. You're a pilot, not a button pusher. Exercise some competence, and fly the airplane. If you can't do that without automation, you have absolutely NO business in the cockpit. Period.

 

[n757st]

What on earth are you talking about? You responded to a quote regarding the use of automation by going on about the obvious. I stated that during a missed approach, when one is having trouble flying the airplane, get rid of the automation and hand fly it. You responded by saying that's exactly the wrong thing to do, and then went off on a completely different tangent. Drinking today?

Two issues have been raised here. One involves a V1 cut on the runway, and the other involves executing a missed approach with the autopilot.

In the case of a missed approach with the autopilot, if one is having troubles, then there's only one requirement; fly the airplane. Period. If automation is kicking your butt, get rid of it and handfly. Period. Yes, that's the right thing to do.

So far as a V1 cut...obviously one doesn't rotate prior to Vr. One does NOT need to engage the autopilot as soon as possible; if you can fly the profile without it, fine, but don't use it as a crutch. You're a pilot, not a button pusher. Exercise some competence, and fly the airplane. If you can't do that without automation, you have absolutely NO business in the cockpit. Period.

The entire quote was not meant for you there sport. I was just imputing my opinion AFTER I responded to you. During a missed approach though I would personally not turn off the automation... the sim flies like crap and you are only hurting yourself by not using it. Not using the autopilot as much as possible is a big reason a lot of people fail at my airline, use it as soon as possible. I don't know if you have flown a CRJ-200 sim, but from my experience hand flying the thing when you don't have to is NOT what you want to be doing.

 

[avbug]

Not using the autopilot as much as possible is a big reason a lot of people fail at my airline, use it as soon as possible.

Perhaps they need to hire people who can fly airplanes, instead of relying on letting the airplane fly them.

I don't know if you have flown a CRJ-200 sim,

I have. Not impressed.

but from my experience hand flying the thing when you don't have to is NOT what you want to be doing.

It's not a matter of having to. It's a matter of being able to. The original poster stated that he was having difficulty. He went so far as to describe being unable to keep the airplane on the runway, and having difficulties flying a missed approach with the autopilot.

If one is having difficulties with the automation, get rid of the automation. Go back to the skills you had BETTER have in the first place, and do your job as a pilot. Retain control and make the airplane do what you want it to do.

 

[brian041102]

Correct me if im wrong but balance field relies on you rotating at vr in order to meet obstacle clearance. This is what i was told when I remained on the runway after vr for a few extra seconds.

 

[MJ42]

Correct me if im wrong but balance field relies on you rotating at vr in order to meet obstacle clearance. This is what i was told when I remained on the runway after vr for a few extra seconds.

Sort of, but n757st is wrong...bad advice. Initiate rotation at V1 to achieve V2 at the screen height(35ft dry runway-screen ht less for wet rwy). Otherwise your performance calculations are not valid. Now to the thread question(hope this portrays accurate when I submit the post):

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If my drawing worked...draw an imaginary line from sky pointer to airplane to heading indicator(presuming your missed does not have an initial turn). Keep everything in line. Keep pitch constant to maintain V2-hold pitch there!!!

Practice this technique then if you need to initiate a turn on a SE missed you will be able to put it all together. Good luck.