CRJ Series Icing Concerns and Studys

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here's the Skywest incident. They throw the pilots under the bus, but the last line says a lot as well....



http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040121X00083&key=1

Too bad no one was able to speak on thier behalf....

 

[kmox29]

That same engineer will probably also tell you that "core lock" is a myth.

CAREFUL DoinTime...that one sentence can turn this thread into a 15-pager with the last 5 pages being Mesaba vs. Pinnacle

 

[BrickTop]

Good responses still in context with original thread!

 

[DrewBlows]

I've seen a 1/2 inch of ice on the vert and horiz stabs after landing at ORD from over the lake. The control column was definitely 'dancing' - vibrating a little and a little less stable in pitch than usual.

Perhaps I have to bone up on my CRJ systems, but how could the control column "dance" because of icing conditions?

To the best of my knowledge the CRJ flight controls are hydraulically actuated. The control column is connected to the actuators through steal cables. The cables move a hydraulic switch which directs the flow of hydraulic fluid it the appropriate direction until the control surface is in the directed position. This is a one way system. The control surface cannot redirect the hydraulic fluid and move the switch attached to the cables thus cannot move the control column.

The force you feel in the control column is artificial. It was put in place so pilots would fly the airplane 'in trim,' so we wouldn't over-stress the airplane, and because we as pilots like to feel like there is something on the other end of the controls. If anyone has ever flown a simulator with broken force feedback you understand how frustrating (and dangerous) it would be to NOT have a feel for the airplane trim condition.

My point is, I think accounts of 'loss of control effectiveness' are exaggerated. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say loss of the feel of control effectiveness is exaggerated. I suppose it's possible to tell your controls aren't effective if you pull back to rotate and the airplane continues barreling down the runway, or you pull to flare and the airplane continues to descend.

I have no doubt the Challenger derived airplanes have an icing issue, but I don't think loss of feel (or feeling 'flutter') is one of them.

 

[JettBoii]

We have on more than one occasion had ice build up on the windshield wipers only to find that there was ice on the leading edge of both wings with NO ice light! After immediately turning on the wing/cowl anti-ice we both watched as it flaked off! It was written up both times; I am sure it was "ops checked good". If your in icing comdition as the POH states then turn in on; don't wait for the ice light. After all as the famous SS said in training its free, works well and lasts a long time. If you lose the power then level off and wait until you have the energy to do so.

 

[Poahi]

The stab trim is electric. I've flown an ILS with zero hydraulic pressure. It wasn't pretty, but we all walked away from the sim.

The key to me is to watch the green line. If it is above your vref, there is a good chance you've got ice.

 

[TA/RA]

Drew, don't ever compare a sim with the "force-feedback" turned off with an airplane. That is the most asinine thing I've heard in awhile. When all the systems are powered up the yoke and rudder pedals will deflect with the control surfaces. Otherwise we would probably be flying with the game controller from a Playstation 2. The next time you are in the airplane on the ramp with a strong wind blowing, if the rudder is deflected, the rudder pedals will be too, if all of the systems are powered up. Yes, the control feel is artificial, but it's there. Also, if you deflect the control surfaces with the trim switches, the yokes will move with them also. But in this case, I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg came first.

 

[chignutsak]

I've seen plenty of ice on the vert. and horiz. stabilizers. Supposedly, it’s not that ice will accrete, it’s that it won’t exceed a point that would create a safety hazard. Anyone know what that point is?

3.54762385 inches

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The key to me is to watch the green line. If it is above your vref, there is a good chance you've got ice.

Not sure I'd trust green line with ice accumulation...

 

[CFIT]

Too bad no one was able to speak on thier behalf....

Actually there were a number of people that were made available on behalf of the pilots. I know both in question very well and both have told me that they felt they were treated and given ample support by the company.

The Captain in question is a very good friend of mine and is a strong anti-ALPA advocate. The first officer at the time is now a Captain and although was on the OC has told me the company and others were very supportive of the incident.

As I recall the captain had his LCA authority removed for 6 months by the FAA.

 

[JettBoii]

That is really a tough scenario. What if she went around? Stalled as soon as she pitched up for the go around due to the ice on his wings? Double edge sword there. I would have landed.; good choice.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Actually there were a number of people that were made available on behalf of the pilots. I know both in question very well and both have told me that they felt they were treated and given ample support by the company.

The Captain in question is a very good friend of mine and is a strong anti-ALPA advocate. The first officer at the time is now a Captain and although was on the OC has told me the company and others were very supportive of the incident.

As I recall the captain had his LCA authority removed for 6 months by the FAA.

Wow... tell me about it....

 

[CFIT]

I did.

 

[katanabob]

When all the systems are powered up the yoke and rudder pedals will deflect with the control surfaces. Otherwise we would probably be flying with the game controller from a Playstation 2. The next time you are in the airplane on the ramp with a strong wind blowing, if the rudder is deflected, the rudder pedals will be too, if all of the systems are powered up. Yes, the control feel is artificial, but it's there. Also, if you deflect the control surfaces with the trim switches, the yokes will move with them also. But in this case, I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg came first.

That's a negative. I've never seen a CRJ control surface moved by the wind with a hyd system powered up. Uncommanded surface movement is referred to as 'backlash' and has a measured allowable limit--usually less than an eighth of an inch deflection before the control system returns it to the commanded position.

The cables in the CRJ feed directly into control arms for hydraulic actuators. Those actuators offer ZERO correlation between control input position and control surface position. The CRJ lacks a true control feel system--this is why the yoke holds the same spring tension whether you're depowered at the gate or doing 335 knots. This is also why the yoke doesn't move when you trim the aircraft with elevator trim. Aileron trim changes the center position of the yoke; that's why the yoke moves with that input. There's ZERO control feel on the CRJ, only spring tension.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I did.

Would the LCA have his letter removed if a professional pilot organziation presented objective facts?

Your answer is known... in fact you voted it!

 

[machaf]

Someone was telling me:

when they flight tested it. They put a large foam piece on the horizontal stab, to simulate ice. They then determined no anti ice would be required.


From experience, you tell when the stab is less effective when you have ice on it.

 

[CFIT]

Would the LCA have his letter removed if a professional pilot organziation presented objective facts?

Your answer is known... in fact you voted it!

The counsel in question for the pilots has worked also on contract for ALPA as well. SkyWest has aero medical consultants that work on behalf of our pilots as well, many of them contract for ALPA too.


Your earlier post said that they had nobody looking out for their best intrest and that was simply not true.


This thread strarted out as a intresting technical run and you find a way to spin it into a union rant, give it a break.

 

[Axel]

I was on the ERJ-135 out of TOL and the engines were icing up. It was fun watching it shed into the engine after the crew turn on the anti-ice!

If the crew turned on the engine anti-ice it was because there was a failure in the anti-icing system. The anti-ice system in that airplane activates automatically.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Abraham Lincoln

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The counsel in question for the pilots has worked also on contract for ALPA as well.

Who is the counsel? And who paid his/her fees?

SkyWest has aero medical consultants that work on behalf of our pilots as well, many of them contract for ALPA too.

Who pays for those consultants? Do they work at ALPA's DEN office?

Your earlier post said that they had nobody looking out for their best intrest and that was simply not true.

All right...

This thread strarted out as a intresting technical run and you find a way to spin it into a union rant, give it a break.

Can't give it a break.. too busy volunteering my time to make this profession better... for ALPA pilots and OO pilots..

Actually though, I meant something like a Safety and Engineering Department that can provide a objective analysis.... in the end...something that could contribute to safety and benefit of the public...

 

[PCL_128]

something that could contribute to safety and benefit of the public...

CFIT doesn't care about that. All he cares about is "me, me, me, me, me!!!!"

 

[yournextFO]

The entire horizontal stab moves when trimmed, thereby changing the angle of attack and compensating for ice accumulation

 

[Caspian27]

Can't give it a break.. too busy volunteering my time to make this profession better... for ALPA pilots and OO pilots...

Rez,

You really want to make it better for OO pilots? If so, that's great!

Although I have been an ALPA member and believe they do good things (the exhaustive list that you posted in another thread) you know that I don't have the same "ALPA saved the planet" mentality as you.

But since you're so passionate about unions I have some questions for you. Obviously the "betterment of our profession" list you posted is a direct result of the members dues money powering lobbyists. Every example of the good of unions you gave was directly related to ALPA lobbying as far as I could tell. What about Teamsters for example? What degree to they lobby on behalf of their pilot members? (As opposed to their primary existence of non-aviation related actions.)

I am not against unions and I would like to better the profession as well. But aside from the lobbying power that ALPA possesses the major benefits of union membership is an agent for collective bargaining. So in your opinion, are the ALPA members the only true improvers of the profession because of the incredible lobbying power their organization beholds? Or is any current union member in your "better the profession club" regardless of how much their union lobbies on behalf of the safety enhancements we are familiar with from ALPA?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

You really want to make it better for OO pilots? If so, that's great!

That is great! Someone should...shouldn't they?

Although I have been an ALPA member and believe they do good things (the exhaustive list that you posted in another thread) you know that I don't have the same "ALPA saved the planet" mentality as you.

I don't think ALPA 'saved the planet'... I do think if ALPA wasn't around the conditions of our profession would be allot worse.

The problem is... current conditions are not motivators. In our hypermaterialsitic society of instant gratification too many people are content with what they have....

Specifiaclly, everything is as advertised for the OO pilots.. their expectation are being fullfilled...

When Air Line Pilots signed up for this career, did they do so knowing reality... the cyclical industry full of furlough? No. they look at it with optimism and hope and unrestricted expectations.

No pilot has real recourse with gov't and the company. An individual pilot has limited resources (read money) and legal position to sue the gov't if his career doesn't go his way.... Same with his/her company. In addition, does the gov't and company really care? Do they have the time to care for each and every pilot and his satisfaction level? However, a pilot does have recourse with his union. In fact a union has an obligation to listen to a complaining pilot.

But since you're so passionate about unions I have some questions for you.

Ask away...

Obviously the "betterment of our profession" list you posted is a direct result of the members dues money powering lobbyists.

Everything that effect Air Line Pilots is determined on Cap Hill. Including the OO pilots.

The FARs
NTSB
Your Ops Specs
Local and State Law (excluded form Cap Hill)
and if you were organized the RLA and your CBA.

Every example of the good of unions you gave was directly related to ALPA lobbying as far as I could tell.

That is correct... the OO pilots have done little if nada.

In addition, mixed messages on CapHill are fodder. If the APA pilots say one thing and ALPA says another, then ALL pilots get tuned out and the legislation proceeds..without pilot input. This is why it is critical for all pilots to be under one roof.

So when ALPA goes to Congress and says "we represent 60,000 Air Line Pilots"...well there are about 25,000 piplots missing..

If we really want to be effective, we need to be able to say "We represent ALL Air Line Pilots". That will get the attention of Congress, Gov't and our Companies. This is why the OO capmpaign was critical. It wasn't about you and what ALPA can do for you. It was about all of us..... It was about the Profession.

What about Teamsters for example? What degree to they lobby on behalf of their pilot members? (As opposed to their primary existence of non-aviation related actions.)

To my knowledge, the teamsters, alone, are non existant in pilot legislation on CapHill. The IBT represents ABX pilots. They have along with the APA, NPA, SWAPA and IPA formed CAPA, with the intent to lobby Congress. These unions too realize they must have a CapHill presence. Recall, it all starts and ends in capHill... every pilot group that has represntation knows this and they go to DC to play. Minus the OO and B6 pilots...

I am not against unions and I would like to better the profession as well.

Then you need:

• Code Of Ethics
• Betterment for the Public
• Ability to address greivences with gov't

But aside from the lobbying power that ALPA possesses the major benefits of union membership is an agent for collective bargaining.

MLKjr was in Memphis to support the Sanitation Workers who were fighting for the ability organize. One of thier issues was the ability to have a redress of greivences. It was that visit MLK Jr was shot.

Workers rights are fundamental. They are modeled after the US Consitution. Unions are democracies in action.

So in your opinion, are the ALPA members the only true improvers of the profession because of the incredible lobbying power their organization beholds? Or is any current union member in your "better the profession club" regardless of how much their union lobbies on behalf of the safety enhancements we are familiar with from ALPA?

When ALPA was founded in 1931 in Chicago, its President spent 50% of his time in WashDC. Eventually ALPA's offices were moved to DC. That is were the game of play is.

No one else represents the Profession in CapHill as long as and effectively as ALPA. That doesn't make ALPA the Savior of the Planet... or the only true improvers of the profession.... its just that ALPA is the only real player doing it.... and again... to be more effecitve we need a Single Voice.

 

[settogathrust]

The entire horizontal stab moves when trimmed, thereby changing the angle of attack and compensating for ice accumulation

You are correct. Because the whole thing moves, it's ALLLL about angle of attack. Let's move along folks.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Follow up...

When ALPA was founded in 1931 in Chicago, its President spent 50% of his time in WashDC. Eventually ALPA's offices were moved to DC. That is were the game of play is.

In 1936 managements political voice was created, the ATA, or Air Transport Asscocaition, which DAL and UAL are members of, in part to counter ALPA's political effectiveness.

And of course, there is the Regional Airline Assoc., or RAA and its members... here is one members listing..

SkyWest Airlines, Inc. (DL*/OO/UA*) (P,C,M)(dba Delta Connection/United Express)444 South River Road​

St. George, UT 84790​

(435) 634-3000; Fax: (435) 634-3305​

Website: skywest.com​

Jerry C. Atkin, Chairman/President/CEO; Bradford R. Rich, Executive VP/CFO; Ron B. Reber, President/COO; Eric D. Christensen, Vice President-Planning; Steven L. Hart, Vice President-Market Development; Bradford R. Holt, Vice President-Flight Operations​

Equipment: 124 Bombardier CRJs, 62 Embraer Brasilias, 57 Bombardier CRJ700s​

​

OO, like all airlines are connected politically and has a presence on CapHill. One has to be if one is to effective and successful.

Look at it this way... it is easier to make decsions when there is only one person or one organization at the table. That is why Skywest mgmnt doesn't want its pilots involved politically. Yet decision and LAW is being made that directly effects the careers of OO pilots.

ALPA's big failure on the OO campaign drive was doing what it has always done.. selling the Association to its members in terms of "what is in it for me". Rather, ALPA needs to quit using the same old broken records in the Communications Dept., and redefine ALPA membership in terms of the Profession. That becoming an Air Line Pilot is becoming a part of something that is greater than the individual...

It doesn't stop at the national level. With Globalization, more and more market forces are going to effect all pilots... including OO pilots. Do you really think that the Global Brand of DAL and UAL is not going to be effected? OO pilots provide global (int'l) feed to DAL and UAL... how can OO pilots not be effected?

ALPA has a standing observer status at ICAO. This is critical. Sure it is hard to place a monetary value of this ICAO status on ones individual career, but one must think in terms of the non-tangible...

At ICAO, a UN organization, ALPA doesn't have member status... thus its influence isn't regulatory.. it is via consensus... another reason why ALL United States Pilots need to be under one roof. Take criminalization of pilots in third world countries.. If ALPA says, "No US pilot will fly to XYZ country if another pilot is locked up"... well... fine.. just send the AMR pilots... cause they aren't represented at ICAO. But if ALL US pilots are represented, then is a country really going to limit international air service and all the economic benefits that a widebody brings?

ALPA is part of IFALPA... now you've got a network of most pilots globally.. that is powerful and needed with globalization....

Pilots really want ALPA to say to the gov't and industry.. " IF you don't ____ we wil just shut it all down.." IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN UNTIL ALL PILOTS ARE UNDER ONE ROOF!. Call it the APA, ALPA..whatever.. but only untill we are all together can we effect real change...


So from the beginning [1931]... Air Line Pilot Careers required political effectiveness.. long before any OO pilot was alive or applied. It is just the way it is... and all the in house unions know it.. that is why they created CAPA.


What surprises me is the OO pilots don't get it....

In that...SKYW management understands ALL of this... thus their membership in a political Association. Jerry et al, all have employment contracts....

But the pilots are cut off. Slienced. And SKYW has done a masterful job, because they got the pilots calling for thier own silence. Mangement gives just enough to keep OO pilots repressed and..here is the mastery of it... OO pilots are advocates of thier own repression.


SKYW management has in effect created a sense of gratefulness for ones own rights. It would be similiar to the US gov't making its citizens feel priviledged to vote when it is actually a right. A company that guilts and employee that health benefits are provided. A parent that guilts a child for food, shelter and clothing.

In the end, it is all about control: controlling cost (at my expense), controlling thought, controlling rights. That goes against my grain as an American.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA's big failure on the OO campaign drive was doing what it has always done.. selling the Association to its members in terms of "what is in it for me". Rather, ALPA needs to quit using the same old broken records in the Communications Dept., and redefine ALPA membership in terms of the Profession. That becoming an Air Line Pilot is becoming a part of something that is greater than the individual...

I'm not so sure I agree with that assessment of the Skywest drive failure. Although I agree 100% about the importance of political effectiveness and a presence on Cap Hill, I don't think you'll have as much success in trying to convince prospective new members that that is the reason that they should want representation. Unfortunately, pilots are extremely self-centered, and trying to present things to them in a manner that talks about the "greater good" and the overall profession won't have as much effectiveness as telling them "what's in it for them." Pilots are all about "me, me, me."

 

[DrewBlows]

Drew, don't ever compare a sim with the "force-feedback" turned off with an airplane. That is the most asinine thing I've heard in awhile. When all the systems are powered up the yoke and rudder pedals will deflect with the control surfaces. Otherwise we would probably be flying with the game controller from a Playstation 2. The next time you are in the airplane on the ramp with a strong wind blowing, if the rudder is deflected, the rudder pedals will be too, if all of the systems are powered up. Yes, the control feel is artificial, but it's there. Also, if you deflect the control surfaces with the trim switches, the yokes will move with them also. But in this case, I'm not sure if the chicken or the egg came first.

Have you ever heard the adage "it's better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt?" I'll save the systems lesson as Katanabob already summed it up. Next time you are doing a preflight try pushing on an aileron and see how much you can deflect it, then remember this... the hydraulic system pressure is 3000 PSI.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not so sure I agree with that assessment of the Skywest drive failure. Although I agree 100% about the importance of political effectiveness and a presence on Cap Hill, I don't think you'll have as much success in trying to convince prospective new members that that is the reason that they should want representation. Unfortunately, pilots are extremely self-centered, and trying to present things to them in a manner that talks about the "greater good" and the overall profession won't have as much effectiveness as telling them "what's in it for them." Pilots are all about "me, me, me."

I understand your persepctive.. however, what you suggest was the program run and it didn't work.

Human beings want to belong... and if the Profession is created as something bigger than them, then it may hold an attraction... it is similiar to belonging to a sports team, citizens of gov't, members of church, etc...

What if the PCL TVC event happend at OO?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1469987#post1469987

Great Post...

As someone who use to do vol. work for ALPA Safety, I can not speak highly enough of that organization.

Been said before, got to fly on speed and get it into the touchdown zone. After that, whatever may happen, you did your job. Let the FDR/CVR/FOQA cover your ass....

Unfortunatley... the OO pilots have a "what are the chances that will happen to me?" attitude. I just want to upgrade.. don't want to mess with that...

ALPA really needs to clean up its own house before they try and attract new members. It's like a chick trying to get a date when she's got allot of personal problems that will run any date off....

I am not saying the OO pilots shoould have not come to ALPA, but I can understand thier rationale... flawed as it is...

 

[PCL_128]

I understand your persepctive.. however, what you suggest was the program run and it didn't work.

</p>
True, it didn't work, but I honestly don't think any program would work with this group. Some people just don't "get it." I think a strategy that focused on what you suggest would have actually brought an even lower YES percentage. Unfortunately, I think we squeezed every last vote out of that group, and it just wasn't enough. In my opinion, I think ALPA needs to forget about Skywest for at least a few years. No matter the strategy, I don't think we'll be successful on that property for the time being.

After a previous failed drive this year, I had a conversation with Don S. from the Comm Dept. He said something that I think perfectly sums up our problems in recruiting regional pilot groups: "The problem is that the younger regional pilots just haven't seen any compelling successes from the Association. They weren't around for the DAL and UAL contracts before 9/11, or the CMR agreements, or any of the other big successes. All they've ever seen from ALPA is damage control ever since 9/11. Until they see a few compelling successes from ALPA during the next round of bargaining, we just won't be able to convince them that ALPA is in their best interests." Unfortunately, I think he's absolutely right. Drives to organize younger pilots just aren't going to be easy until we show them why representation is in their best interests. It isn't enough to explain it to them, we have to show them. Until they see the successes with their own eyes, it just isn't going to "click" for them. You can see a big difference from the pilots that have been around for a while and have seen what representation is all about. The drive at Capital Cargo this year got a 99% YES vote. The drive at Evergreen was a big success. The drive at Kitty Hawk last year was a big success. The pilots that have been around the block a time or two have seen how important representation is, but the newbies just don't get it, and they'll have to see it for themselves before we'll be able to get them on board.

Maybe in a few years after the next round of collective bargaining is getting off the ground we'll have some more success. Until then, I think we're just spinning our wheels with groups like Skywest.

 

[Crossky]

Perhaps I have to bone up on my CRJ systems, but how could the control column "dance" because of icing conditions?
. . .

My point is, I think accounts of 'loss of control effectiveness' are exaggerated. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say loss of the feel of control effectiveness is exaggerated. I suppose it's possible to tell your controls aren't effective if you pull back to rotate and the airplane continues barreling down the runway, or you pull to flare and the airplane continues to descend.

I have no doubt the Challenger derived airplanes have an icing issue, but I don't think loss of feel (or feeling 'flutter') is one of them.

I stand by my original statement. The yoke wasn't moving visibly, but I could feel vibrations and a little instability in it's response that I had not felt before. Perhaps vibration from the horizontal stabilizer was absorbed from the HYD fluid flowing through the system and was transmitted to the control column.

If you'd like to get in your CRJ700 or CRJ900 and go try over the lake, be my guest.

Reports that the CRJ didn't flare as they expected on landing define the term 'loss of control effectiveness', no? I never mentioned loss of feel of control effectiveness.