Criminalization of Pilots: Are you next?

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I guess so.....

Maybe I am the only one who doesn't think piloting should be criminal. The FARs are administrative law not criminal....


The measurement on this thread is populist... not legal....

 

[sqwkvfr]

I guess so.....

Maybe I am the only one who doesn't think piloting should be criminal. The FARs are administrative law not criminal....


The measurement on this thread is populist... not legal....

You're not really dong much to change my already low opinion of you and your posted beliefs.

Piloting, is NOT criminal. Acting in a reckless or careless fashion IS.

Do you understand that? I've broken it down into simple terms so you can understand.

By your reasoning, I could "accidentally" fly into a house and kill a family of five, but since I state after the fact that I "didn't intend" to do it, it wouldn't be a criminal act under any circumstances, and I'd be somehow protected by irrevocable immunity.

That's not the sort of justice each citizen of this country is guaranteed by the US Constitution.

Your understanding of criminal law is extremely weak. You should really be careful when you state things like "populist, not legal," because you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Can you provide references?

Opinions vary, however, about whether his actions amounted to criminal conduct, or whether justice is served by sending him—or other general aviation pilots involved in aircraft accidents—to prison.

Obviously I am not the only one....

In addition, he was convicted by a county prosecutor.... not the Feds....

 

[sqwkvfr]

Can you provide references?

References to what? This is common sense...an area in which you are evidently seriously lacking.

 

[sqwkvfr]

If I rent a car in a town I've never been in... and I make a wrong turn and kill somone...an unfortunatel accident.... is that criminal....?

Oh, and YES, IT DOES....in any town in the country........unless, of course, the pedestrian was somewhere he/she wasn't supposed to be, like out of a crosswalk or crossing against a red light.

Only a person seriously removed from reality would think that killing someone as the result of a careless or reckless act wouldn't be a criminal offense.

How ridiculous.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

References to what? This is common sense...an area in which you are evidently seriously lacking.

Provide rerefences to your opinion

Piloting, is NOT criminal. Acting in a reckless or careless fashion IS.

Why? Sure common sense seems to have its place here... but if so... then why is his THE FIRST case. We've been flying airplanes for 100 years. Why now.???

Do you understand that? I've broken it down into simple terms so you can understand.

No, you have explained it into what you think is common sense...

By your reasoning, I could "accidentally" fly into a house and kill a family of five, but since I state after the fact that I "didn't intend" to do it, it wouldn't be a criminal act under any circumstances, and I'd be somehow protected by irrevocable immunity.

THat is what investigations are for... to provide independent analysis.. instead of the pilots account (which is self preservation)

That's not the sort of justice each citizen of this country is guaranteed by the US Constitution.

Again, provide a refrence... again... he was conviceted under county law not US Consitution law. Not federal law...

Your understanding of criminal law is extremely weak. You should really be careful when you state things like "populist, not legal," because you really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

So explain it to me instead of just giving your opinion that I don't know what I am talking about..

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Oh, and YES, IT DOES....in any town in the country........

So you are criminal authority in any town in the country... wow...

unless, of course, the pedestrian was somewhere he/she wasn't supposed to be, like out of a crosswalk or crossing against a red light.

Starting to get grey?

Only a person seriously removed from reality would think that killing someone as the result of a careless or reckless act wouldn't be a criminal offense.

refrences please... your opinion is just that...

How ridiculous.

Again... this is the first criminal conviction of a pilot since the Wright Brothers... why did it take over 100 years for "common sense"?? Why is convicting pilots suddenly the flavor of the month... and why are you for it?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez....why should aviation be any different than automobiles or boats with regards to criminal negligence?

The "gray" areas are what courts and lawyers are for...

 

[sqwkvfr]

Provide rerefences to your opinion.

This is NOT an opinion, these are basic elements of criminal law from from a person who has a buttload of experience operating in this very area.

You educate yourself on these matters...it's obviously gonna take a long time and you can't afford me.

I still wanna know how on Earth you think that a death as the result of a careless or reckless act is not a criminal act....for Christ's sake, man, turn on your freeking TV and watch the news tonight....there are literally thousands of prosecutions every week for just such a thing.

Let me just provide another example for your evidently extremely thick skull: There is no law that specifically reads NOT to drive your car on the sidewalk at high speeds, but you do anyway.

You hit and kill a kid.

Now, do you seriously think that you are immune from prosecution because "it's not illegal" and "I didn't mean to kill anyone?"

 

[highsky]

So do you guys think they should send the surviving co-pilot of the Lexington, KY Comair Flight 5191 crash to jail for the rest of his life?

Well...he fukced up, right? He took off from a different runway than that which ATC cleared him. He took off on the wrong runway, and killed 49 people. Should Kentucky send him to the electric chair?

No, he didn't intentionally do that, but neither did the original subject of this thread.

Let's review:

§ 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

...


It's not against the law to fly 70 feet or 7 feet above a river. It IS against the law to fly within 500 feet of a STRUCTURE. Was he within 500 feet of those power line poles? Probably. Does that violate the law?

Was he intentionally violating the law by flying within 500 feet of the poles? Absolutlely not. Was he a negligent dumbass? Yes. Was the co-pilot in the Lexington crash a negligent dumbass? You be the judge. Would it be possible for ANY OF US to make a dumbass mistake? I think the answer is obvious.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Should Kentucky send him to the electric chair?

No, he didn't intentionally do that, but neither did the original subject of this thread.

Capitol punishment is reserved for capitol crimes...manslaughter is not a capitol crime.

You can quote FARS until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make any difference. Just because an activity is regulated by the federal government it doesn't mean that a state crime can't be committed whilst in the performance of that activity.

The AWA guys in Florida made that so.


Main Entry:man·slaugh·ter

Pronunciation: \ˈman-ˌslȯ-tər\

Function:noun

Date:14th century : the unlawful killing of a human being without express or implied malice

 

[highsky]

Capitol punishment is reserved for capitol crimes...manslaughter is not a capitol crime.

You can quote FARS until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make any difference. Just because an activity is regulated by the federal government it doesn't mean that a state crime can't be committed whilst in the performance of that activity.

The AWA guys in Florida made that so.


Main Entry:man·slaugh·ter

Pronunciation: \ˈman-ˌslȯ-tər\

Function:noun

Date:14th century : the unlawful killing of a human being without express or implied malice

Fair enough, on the capital punishment, and the Federal Regulations.

Here are the Kentucky Statutes on manslaughter:


Kentucky Statute 507.030

507.030 Manslaughter in the first degree.​

(1) A person is guilty of manslaughter in the first degree when:
(a) With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he causes the
death of such person or of a third person; or
(b) With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such
person or of a third person under circumstances which do not constitute
murder because he acts under the influence of extreme emotional disturbance,
as defined in subsection (1)(a) of KRS 507.020.​

(2) Manslaughter in the first degree is a Class B felony.​

Effective:

January 1, 1975
History: Created 1974 Ky. Acts ch. 406, sec. 62, effective January 1, 1975.​

Kentucky Statute 507.040​

507.040 Manslaughter in the second degree.

(1) A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when he wantonly causes the death of another person, including, but not limited to, situations where the death results from the person's:​

(a) Operation of a motor vehicle; or
(b) Leaving a child under the age of eight (8) years in a motor vehicle under circumstances which manifest an extreme indifference to human life and

which create a grave risk of death to the child, thereby causing the death of the child.​

(2) Manslaughter in the second degree is a Class C felony.

Effective: ​

July 14, 2000

History:

Amended 2000 Ky. Acts ch. 521, sec. 18, effective July 14, 2000. -- Amended​

1984 Ky. Acts ch. 165, sec. 27, effective July 13, 1984. -- Created 1974 Ky. Acts
ch. 406, sec. 63, effective January 1, 1975.​

I don't see anything in the foregoing statutes that implicates either the original subject of this thread or the co-pilot of Comair Flight 5191.

 

[Hamburger]

If grandma hits the gas insted of the brake and kills a boy... is that criminal?

It was when Russell Weller took a spin through the Santa Monica Farmer's Market.

Maybe I am the only one who doesn't think piloting should be criminal.

Piloting isn't. Killing your passengers while breaking the FARs...............

The FARs are administrative law not criminal....

He didn't go to jail for breaking the FAR's.

Cavalese cable car netted two dishonorables and six months in jail.

Do you feel the same about Hulk Hogan's kid operating his vehicle in a careless and reckless manner and putting his passenger in the turnip ward?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It was when Russell Weller took a spin through the Santa Monica Farmer's Market.

Fair enough... however was this pilot...

After he was found guilty of ten counts of vehicular manslaughter, the sentencing judge noted Weller "showed enormous indifference" and "unbelievable callousness."​

Piloting isn't. Killing your passengers while breaking the FARs...............

He didn't go to jail for breaking the FAR's.

So what is it... FAR's or county law...

He was convicted on motor vehicle laws.... not FARs... that can be a dangerous or slippery precendence for us pilots...

Cavalese cable car netted two dishonorables and six months in jail.

The two pilots of the military plane, Captain Richard J. Ashby and his navigator Captain Joseph Schweitzer, were put on trial in the United States and were found not guilty of involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide. Later they were found guilty of obstruction of justice for having destroyed a videotape recorded from the plane and were dishonorably discharged from the Marines.​

It was determined that the maps on board did not show the cables and that the EA-6B was flying somewhat faster and considerably lower than allowed by military regulations. The restrictions in effect at the time required a minimum flying height of 2,000 ft (600 m); the pilot said he thought they were 1,000 ft (300 m). The cable was cut at a height of 360 ft (110 m). The pilot further claimed that the height-measuring equipment on his plane had been malfunctioning, and that he had been unaware of the speed restrictions. In March 1999, the jury acquitted Ashby, outraging the European public. The manslaughter charges against Schweitzer were then dropped.​

So, they were flying lower than min altitudes... nonetheless they were conviceted on obstruction of justice... not reckless flying...

Our bi-plane plane here.. did nothing of the sort..

Do you feel the same about Hulk Hogan's kid operating his vehicle in a careless and reckless manner and putting his passenger in the turnip ward?

He was drinking and street racing... the bi-plane pilot was not drinking or flying aggressively...