Crew Scheduling

[Palerider957]

OK, a question for the group. How many companies out there have rediculous problems with scheduling. I've had it with the outright LIES and incompetance from scheduling.

Lately at my company there have been a rash of people TDY'd to DFW for six days. This wouldn't be so bad, but the were short-called, (uh, 2 hour call out) for this 6 day trip.

Is it just me, or are all Crew Schedulers born with an extra sphincter between their eyes???

Why is it that they think they are management? Why can't they competantly manage a schedule? I know that not all airlines are like this.

Lets here some good scheduling stories and some payback.

I WILL NOT VOTE FOR ANY CONTRACT THAT DOESN'T CONTAIN SERIOUS CHANGES TO SCHEDULING AND OUR RESERVE SYSTEM.

 

[POKEY]

I think scheduling at most regional airlines is a complete cluster****. I could write a book on some of the stupid s*** they have pulled with me. The last one i remember is having to deadhead four legs so I could fly an empty airplane one leg. Or coming in for a 0600 show only to find out i was ioe bumped off the first 2 legs

 

[Tug Driver]

I'll agree that most crew schedulers are idiots, but what can you expect for a $10.00 an hour job...

 

[Palerider957]

I'll agree that most crew schedulers are idiots, but what can you expect for a $10.00 an hour job...

Schedulers take home more than newhire FO's, but we expect a lot more competance out of pilots then Crew Scheduling.

I guess I'm just pis.sed at these bozo's. I'm surprised no one has gone "postal" at one regional or another. These morons bully, badger, and lie and still don't get the job done.

Is it the same everywhere???

 

[shamrock]

I WILL NOT VOTE FOR ANY CONTRACT THAT DOESN'T CONTAIN SERIOUS CHANGES TO SCHEDULING AND OUR RESERVE SYSTEM.

I hope this is the prevailing attitude when we finally do get to vote. We certainly aren't going to get much (if any) money so we really need QOL issues addressed. 18+ hour layovers in hotspots like ICT, SHV, and FLO are a waste of time and the lack of responsibility and accountability in screw scheduling is sickening.

Hadn't heard about those TDYs but it doesn't surprise me. Someone should send the schedulers on a 6 day paid ($1.50/hour) "vacation" to DFW and let them see how fun it is.

Maybe next year we can invite our friendly neighborhood schedulers to the company picnic for a nice game of football. Touch of course!

 

[wms]

Lately at my company there have been a rash of people TDY'd to DFW for six days. This wouldn't be so bad, but they were short-called, (uh, 2 hour call out) for this 6 day trip.

They've done this in the past. As ATL based E120 CA's we used to get sent to DFW all the time. I think it's called reserve away from domicile in the contract. The contract says they can only do it once a month and that all days off must be in domicile w/ pos space travel. They've violated both of those in the past because the pilot didn't know the contract.

The best way to work with scheduling is to know the contract, raise the flag when they violate it, and grin and bear it when they are in their rights.

With the excess of reserve pilots we have, these issues will be important in the next contract, about 18 months down the road according to the union reps.

 

[DoinTime]

Re: Dispatcher as well, ??

Hey we are legally and jointly responsible with the Pilots in command for every flight and most of us are paid under $13 an hour. And we will probably never see $17 and hour, ever!

I'll never disagree that you guys are way underpaid and way overworked but you also don't have to live with your mistakes. Its not your a$$ strapped to an aluminum tube out there mixing it up with all the fury mother nature can muster in a mechanical rattle trap being held together by good intentions. When you go home at night after that long shift think about the crews that were left stranded hundreds of miles from home with a broke airplane, bad weather, or food poisoning.

Ask if you can sit with the scheduler for a few Full shifts and see what they have to deal with in problem solving every day.

I have seen first hand the problems that airline schedulers and dispatchers deal with on a day to day basis and I can tell you it is no where near the level of problem solving that the pilots are dealing with (note above statement - bad decision could cost you your life). I'm sure the everyday problems of the crew scheduler wouldn't be so overcoming if they were reasonably intelligent.

 

[asarjfo]

Re: Dispatcher as well, ??

Hey we are legally and jointly responsible with the Pilots in command for every flight and most of us are paid under $13 an hour. And we will probably never see $17 and hour, ever!

Some pilots call us bozo's as well. Just a s friendly suggestion, don't complain about the messenger until you have walked in his/her shoes...they have a very tough job to deal with unhappy people.

The System control managers that over see the heart of the airline and see the BIG picture of broken airplanes, sick of crews calling in...they have to keep a schedule, what you hear from the schedulers is the end result of a long chain of management requirements.

Ask if you can sit with the scheduler for a few Full shifts and see what they have to deal with in problem solving every day.

JMHO

One of our dispatchers filed us through a Level 5 TS in central Florida. Now we all know how afternoon thunder storms can be in FLA during the summer so we gave her the benefit of the doubt and made our way into MLB through a small hole that was closing up fast.

After we arrived in MLB we got the release and surprise the dispather had filed us right over top ORL. Now keep in mind MCO is now closed due to the Level 5 TS and the only way "around" the weather is over Tampa.

I will say some of our dispatchers to a good job, but some just spit out releases without any regard to the crew or safety of flight. Our lastest company news letter asked us to keep our dispatcher in the loop and treat them with respect.....how about they earn it first.

 

[bailout]

Palerider, your situation should get better. You are a victim of a limited number of F/Os on your airplane in DFW. Of course this is because they just sent a bunch of them back to the 50 seater, and what do you know, the next prelims have about 10 guys getting the F/O 70 DFW award. Round and round they go. I have had a person from crew planning, (the people that build the trips) ride the jumpseat the entire trip on my last two four day trips. They are being sent out to "experience first hand the trips they build". Of course both of these were very senior trips with great layovers, etc. I told him to come fly a string of three naps with 5 hours on the ground and see what its like. They should make all those short ones staged overnights, and take away some trips that have 8-9 hours on the ground and make them into naps!
I learned ALOT those days. It really does take alot to make it all work. They are not given much freedom at all. Delta gives them the routes and the times, and they have to piece it all together. But back to your scheduling complaints, I brought up alot of questions about that too. He stated that they are simply looking to fill a slot the quickest way they can, the easiest way they can. Like in your case, it would seem that they could have split it up, three days for you, then have someone else do the other three days, etc. But that makes more work for them, and sometimes you may not come back through a domicile to switch out. Most four day trips leave ATL on day one, and never came back through until the last leg. So to switch out, they would have had to deadhead someone out, deadhead you back, etc, and thats to much work. I am certainly NOT defending them, as I have been yanked around by them my fair share, but if you were a scheduler I doubt you would do much different. It sounds like someone got sick at the last minute and you got short-called. What ticks me off the most, is when you find out that they have known about it for HOURS or DAYS, and still wait until the last minute to call.
I'm just rambling on here, but we all feel your pain!!

 

[Palerider957]

I certainly understand that peple get sick and that planes break down at outstations--that is the ONLY time a short-call should be used. It should NOT be used because scheduling "forgot" to schedule a trip, nor should it be used as a punitive way--sticking up for your rights should NOT land you on a Crew Scheduling shi.t list.

My first year with this company ( on the E-120), I flew almost every reserve day and all but 5 trips were short calls---what the hell is that?

The people we have are mean spirited and often totally unconcerned that they are dealing with peoples lives. One of the fellows I went to DFW with was trying to get home early to try to resolve a child care problem, he asked scheduling to let him go early and all they would say (in their best ghetto tone) was "we got you to midnight, we got you to midnight."

I have been TOTALLY timed out, in both flight time and almost timed out in duty time...when I've called them after a trip(with about 40 mins left in my legal day) I get "you're released from the airport." Why can't they just release me for the day?? It's either a power trip, or they really have NO clue how to do their job and what the contract entails.

In all of my other jobs I have always been a hard worker, scheduling has made an enemy out of me--and my willingness to help the comany has suffered greatly.

I have no bone with dispacthers......

 

[Palerider957]

Re: Dispatcher as well, ??

Hey we are legally and jointly responsible with the Pilots in command for every flight and most of us are paid under $13 an hour. And we will probably never see $17 and hour, ever!

Some pilots call us bozo's as well. Just a s friendly suggestion, don't complain about the messenger until you have walked in his/her shoes...they have a very tough job to deal with unhappy people.

The System control managers that over see the heart of the airline and see the BIG picture of broken airplanes, sick of crews calling in...they have to keep a schedule, what you hear from the schedulers is the end result of a long chain of management requirements.

Ask if you can sit with the scheduler for a few Full shifts and see what they have to deal with in problem solving every day.

JMHO

Outermarke

Ask a scheduler to endure our crap--make them a slave to their cell phone 15 hours a day, short-call them, extend them, lie about a rest requirement, then draft them on their day off. When they protest, give them a rash of shi.t--"ARE YOU REFUSING THIS TRIP?!?!?!?!?" When they are TOTALLY exhausted, and timed out, try to pressure them to part 91 a ship for repositioning---tell them "Hey, it's done all the time." When they refuse, call the CPO on call and have them add pressure to the exhausted crew.

P.S. ...if I did sit with Crew Sceduling for a few shifts, I'm sure I would end up in a maximum security prison and regional pilots everywhere would hail my name.

It's no wonder scheduling hides behind locked doors.

I would LOVE to add a stipulation to our next contract to have CS located down in ops. When they want to screw with a pilot, they would have to do it FACE to FACE.

 

[COEX-FO]

Re: Dispatcher as well, ??

Hey we are legally and jointly responsible with the Pilots in command for every flight and most of us are paid under $13 an hour. And we will probably never see $17 and hour, ever!

Just so no one is being mislead by your pay rate. That's for a normal 160 hour month! If you were an FO here at COEX, that 17.00 an hour would be equal to $35.00 an hour based upon an 75 hour guarantee, around a 5th year FO!

 

[rumorhasit]

Hey pailerider...
I work for a regional and yes I will say it (don't everyone jump on me at once) I am a scheduler....I have worked for a few months and learning the ropes and contracts. I am also the doing hard time(scheduling) to be sitting in that RJ FO seat( cfi,CFII) for an opprotunity ...I try to help pilots when I can but I must look at the overall picture of operations. Things happen that you do not know about (operationally) that affects everyone from CA to The guy who cleans the plans. I also worked as a cross utilized agent at an outstation...so I have a little experience in this buz!!! And I am scheduled 160 hrs a month and if I do not come to work I don't get paid...I see pilots with a line value of 34hrs but getting paid for 75hrs...

I understand you have worked hard to get where you are (trust me) but go to any other job a gripe about getting paid full time for a parttime hours. You guys have an office with a view and sometimes an attractive FA to get you coffee...don't loose site of the big picture...We (most schedulers) see numbers and FAR's requirements and operational need to keep the planes flying!!!!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

And I am scheduled 160 hrs a month and if I do not come to work I don't get paid...I see pilots with a line value of 34hrs but getting paid for 75hrs...

Yep, you're right. And you also go home to your wife/girlfriend/dog every night. Not the case with us. We all have our tradeoffs to make, but keep in mind that just because someone has a line value of 34 hours they are not working part time hours. As an example, we have standup lines blocked to just about that. The guys on the standups spend 10 nights at home a month and sit around hotels all night for a buck-fifty an hour in per diem. Part time? I think not. Not trying to flame you, but keep that in mind next time you think of us as pampered, overpaid, and underworked.

 

[shamrock]

I understand you have worked hard to get where you are (trust me) but go to any other job a gripe about getting paid full time for a parttime hours.

Let's see, I flew 69 hours in October, was on duty for 170, and was away from home for over 300. Boy, am I glad I only signed up for part time!!!

I do understand that it is part of the job, but I would think that someone who works for a regional would be a little better informed.


I believe I work for the same airline as palerider and I have had the same experiences he has. Last summer, toward the end of my sixth day on reserve, I went to the airport to catch a 6:40 flight out. I was legal, duty time-wise, until 9 so I called scheduling at 6:25 to get released. After I explained the situation, the queen beeyotch I talked to told me I had to wait until 7 (after my flight left) to be released, despite the fact that I had a 2 hour call out which would allow only 35 minutes on duty. That's not even long enough for one turn around the pattern in ATL, but unfortunately, this is the kind of stupidity we must deal with.

As rumorhasit said, he "must look at the overall picture of operations", meaning we don't have all the information. Fair enough, but likewise, we as pilots have to look at the overall picture of our lives (which our schedulers couldn't care less about) and simply don't take kindly to a scheduler on a power trip screwing with them unneccesarily.

BTW, I don't have a problem with dispatchers either.

 

[Ailerongirl]

Rumorhasit,

For the most part I agree that your post had some points.....but then I read this line...

sometimes an attractive FA to get you coffee...

Puh-leeze!!

 

[asarjfo]

Let's see, I flew 69 hours in October, was on duty for 170, and was away from home for over 300. Boy, am I glad I only signed up for part time!!!

I do understand that it is part of the job, but I would think that someone who works for a regional would be a little better informed.


I believe I work for the same airline as palerider and I have had the same experiences he has. Last summer, toward the end of my sixth day on reserve, I went to the airport to catch a 6:40 flight out. I was legal, duty time-wise, until 9 so I called scheduling at 6:25 to get released. After I explained the situation, the queen beeyotch I talked to told me I had to wait until 7 (after my flight left) to be released, despite the fact that I had a 2 hour call out which would allow only 35 minutes on duty. That's not even long enough for one turn around the pattern in ATL, but unfortunately, this is the kind of stupidity we must deal with.

As rumorhasit said, he "must look at the overall picture of operations", meaning we don't have all the information. Fair enough, but likewise, we as pilots have to look at the overall picture of our lives (which our schedulers couldn't care less about) and simply don't take kindly to a scheduler on a power trip screwing with them unneccesarily.

BTW, I don't have a problem with dispatchers either.

If you know that you are not legal, just get on the flight and go home. I played the scheduling game for a year while commuting. I tried to be civil like most of you, but towards the end it seemed the crew schedulers were just plain mean. I used to count back from the end of my reserve day to get my own "release" time.

Lets say your reserve day is over by 10 pm.

2 hour call - 8 pm

1 hour duty in - 7 pm.

Round trip to MCN 2 hours 5 pm.

If I had not heard from crew scheduling by around 5pm I jumped on Airtran and headed home. Guess what.....they never called.

As far as the "short call" DO NOT DO IT!!! If it says two hours.....make it 2 hours and 1 hour to duty in. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

 

[Palerider957]

rumorhasit:

You TOTALLY missed my point. We all KNOW planes/crews/flights have to be scheduled, we all KNOW planes break and crews get sick, we all KNOW there is a big picture.

My point is that many airlines are able to schedule with COMPETANCE and without CONSTANTLY lying and violating the contract. You say you have many factors to consider--LEARN THE CONTRACT AND KNOW YOUR JOB. I could not be as incompetant as our schedulers and still keep my job. You can't have a pilot who doesn't have a clue.

You think our life is so golden, fine get a degree, get all of your ratings, build some time (in poverty), then apply for and get a regional job. Then YOU will be schedulings bit.ch as a junior reserve guy. Enjoy. You seem like this is your goal, we'll talk again when you are on line.

Beleive me, I'm sure I'm older than you, I've worked many jobs through the years. It's MUCH less stressful to work more hours consistantly, then to work fewer hours on a moments notice.

Schedulers don't realize that if they treated us well, we would treat them well and not ALWAYS resist even when we want to fly. Due to the way I've been treated I always enforce the contract to the letter with no equivication. There are a couple of schedulers I'll work with, but the rest can go pound salt.

Outermarket:

Yes, I'm doing what I want to do---that does NOT automatically make me a bit.ch for scheduluers. I can see it now, "Gee, he's living the dream, let's screw with him some more today."

Shamrock:

You should have gotten on the flight anyway. If they have a problem with that, call the CPO and explain the timing, they will usually back you up when they are acting like 1st graders on a power trip. Here is the ALPA Crew Sched. Hotline 928-899-8900, they have helped my many times. In about 7 or 8 recent battles with scheduling, I've only lost one.

 

[Lear70]

Here at PinchNickle (Pinnacle), our problems come from several different sides of the coin: First, let's agree that there's a BIG difference between the Schedulers and Dispatchers. That said, at THIS airline, I believe very few of the "dispatchers" actually have that license - most are "flight followers" who spit out releases and have one, maybe two actual licensed dispatchers acting as supervisors. I've heard more than once that our dispatchers churn out more releases per dispatcher than any other airline in the U.S., regional or major; how are they supposed to keep track of us or seriously consider weather, MEL requirements, etc when all they're doing is spitting our releases? I know we have a few exceptions to the rule, but I for one, think they do a pretty decent job given their work load and it's not that big of a deal to call them up and tell them, "Hey, that weather probably isn't going to work - how about this route?" or "Hey, our outflow valve has been deferred and wired open so we're unpressurized, care to change our altitude to 9,000' to go DTW-ERI instead of 16,000'?" That's OUR job - catch things like that BEFORE they become a problem.

Our Schedulers on the other hand, often are here as their first job in the aviation arena and have no aviation education except what our corporate executives give them. If our corporate executives are setting the tone with these individuals that we are expendable assets to be used to the maximum permissable by FAR and/or contract regardless of any other concerns, is it any wonder then that those schedulers treat us the way they do?? The best schedulers we have are those with Commercial MEL certificates trying to get into the airplanes, but many of those who don't have such aspirations are d*mn near impossible to work with and generate 90% of our aggravation.

PaleRider: I understand your frustration, but regarding your original post, take it from a guy who's been on reserve for the last 4 years between two carriers: DO NOT start using reciprocity as a scheduling tactic. You will end up on the losing side of that deal EVERY TIME! They WILL remember your name. You WILL get abused as much as possible - every time a crap trip or assignment comes up and they can contractually and legally assign it to you - you WILL get it. Seen it happen too often and been on that side of the coin more than once...

Hey Shamrock... have you ever heard of the "Self Release Program"? Step 1: Be off probation. Step 2. Be certain you can't be used legally. Step 3. Leave. (editorial credit to GB).

DoinTme: You forgot to mention crews stranded at the oustation because the company put us up at a Fleabag hotel and the F/O got bit by a Brown Recluse...

Rumorhasit: Maybe we don't see the big picture all of the time, but don't buy the Koolaid the company feeds you - the truth is probably somewhere in the middle... which you will probably have a unique perspective on... after a few months on reserve!

Ailerongurl - with your moto at the bottom, are you the girl that keeps coming forward with your back to the cockpit door, cutting one loose, then going back to the passengers while that lovely odor works its way into the flight deck? And the mechanics keep wondering why we have to service the O2 so often...

p.s. What the h*ll is an "outermarkeT"? :wink:

 

[Palerider957]

Lear 70:

Self Release Program! ROFLMAO! Yeah, I'm a member of that club!

As for being on a Sched. Sh.it lists---yup, been there. That's why I've had so many go arounds with them and have had to involve CPO's and ALPA.

One our pilots is currently sueing Scheduling--this is golden. This poor bas.tard was on a 4 day trip (he was short-called of course). Halfway through the trip, you gueesed it, Scheduling calls his house TRYING TO ASSIGN HIM A TRIP. His wife answers and she tells them he is no a trip THEY ARGUE WITH HER INSISTING HE ISN'T.

This guy and his wife were already on shaky terms, when he got home she served him with DIVORCE papers. This guy was doing his job and CREW SCHED. put the final nail in his marriage...but that's OK, because he's living the dream.