Crew Briefings: Takeoff, Approach, Landing

[Oakum_Boy]

B1tch, let me nizzle this drizzle, and keep yo han off da pizzle lizzle. If I tell you to put the gizzle dizzle, you betta comply awful fizzle, else I slap you to the curb, my mizzle.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

That's the correct coast, but no, it wasn't.

'Sled

You were a VNY boy?

So let's see, tiller at 90, well, not a GV or GIV, perhaps a GIII or CL?

Ace

 

[bafanguy]

I'm only curious after flying with a new captain last week that briefed the above completely different from anything I'd ever heard (a by-product of his many years in another flight dept.) Theres probably no right way or wrong way, but I'm curious to see what you guys got!

Our company policy dictates that for takeoff, the pilot flying covers: V-Speeds and Power Settings, Emergency Contingincies, Review Clearance, and ask if theres any questions.

User,

As a FO, you're in a bit of a difficult spot when His Royal High Holiness decides he doesn't have to play the game the way he's paid to play it ( thereby compromising the quality of the operation and making your job that much more difficult ). You said, "There's probably no right or wrong way...". I would just suggest that there is, in fact, a "right" way: the way outlined in your company ops manual, and apparently, your manual does this.

When HRHH is going to fly and doesn't address the issues adequately, bug the livin' squat outta him with questions until you're satisfied you understand what he has in mind. Maybe he'll get tired of that and just give you a proper briefing.

When you fly, just do what you're supposed to do, the way you're supposed to do it until there's a very good reason not to.

I've had some pretty good training from FO's over the years. Maybe the guy you mentioned has just gotten a bit complacent without realizing it.

 

[Lead Sled]

You were a VNY boy?

So let's see, tiller at 90, well, not a GV or GIV, perhaps a GIII or CL?

Ace

North, a lot further north.

 

[Lead Sled]

When you fly, just do what you're supposed to do, the way you're supposed to do it until there's a very good reason not to.

Every once in a while there is a real pearl posted on these forums - simple yet profound. These are words of wisdom from someone who has been around the block several times. Bafanguy, thank you.

'Sled

 

[Huggyu2]

Our standards are written down, so they should be fairly explicit. I don't like briefings where the pilot doing the brief restates every single item that is repeated day in-and-out. Why? Because, people get bored hearing it, their minds wander momentarily, and then they miss the "new" information that is getting briefed.
I like it when the briefer says "Standard... standard,.... standard except that today we're going to blah, blah, blah." Now, he's not wasting my time repeating the same thing I've heard for years, and I'm totally focused on what's different today (wet runway, crosswind, departure obstacle, noise abatement, whatever).
If the pilots don't know the standards, we've identified a weak area, and they will be expected to improve. But, being professionals is what it's all about, and using briefing standards improves the safety and brevity of the briefings that I give.

 

[Lead Sled]

Huggy...
I don't like briefings where the pilot doing the brief restates every single item that is repeated day in-and-out either and for precisely the reason you mentioned - people do get bored and don't pay attention. But that's not an excuse to never use it. Reread my original post.

Just for grins ask one of your less experienced pilots, at a time when s/he isn't expecting it, to recite quickly and accurately your standard briefing. If they can't do it you probably need to review your policy. Just a thought.

'Sled

 

[soarby007]

Well the windsock comment goes like this. After the usual rote briefing, he says "and right there is the windsock, do you see it?" Yep, been in the same location for at least twenty years. Nothing unusual at all, just crap. Already have the winds from the tower within the last twenty seconds.

 

[User546]

Thanks Bafan for the comments.

You had a really good suggestion with bugging the guys with questions until I get a good solid briefing! I got a four-day coming up with this guy this week, so hopefully we can get something worked out before the end of it, that or he'll probably never want to fly with me again!

And this question is open to everyone - but what do you suggest I do, or how should I handle it with him if he still refuses to give the company defined briefing, and isn't making an effort to atleast learn or attempt it?

Theres a lot of good captains on this board that got to have some good suggestions for a low-time FO on how to handle this. (I'm still learning all the tips and tricks of the CRM game)

 

[Lead Sled]

Thanks Bafan for the comments.

You had a really good suggestion with bugging the guys with questions until I get a good solid briefing! I got a four-day coming up with this guy this week, so hopefully we can get something worked out before the end of it, that or he'll probably never want to fly with me again!

And this question is open to everyone - but what do you suggest I do, or how should I handle it with him if he still refuses to give the company defined briefing, and isn't making an effort to atleast learn or attempt it?

Theres a lot of good captains on this board that got to have some good suggestions for a low-time FO on how to handle this. (I'm still learning all the tips and tricks of the CRM game)

What are you flying? 91 or 135?

 

[User546]

What are you flying? 91 or 135?

91 all the way.

 

[soarby007]

Thanks Bafan for the comments.

You had a really good suggestion with bugging the guys with questions until I get a good solid briefing! I got a four-day coming up with this guy this week, so hopefully we can get something worked out before the end of it, that or he'll probably never want to fly with me again!

And this question is open to everyone - but what do you suggest I do, or how should I handle it with him if he still refuses to give the company defined briefing, and isn't making an effort to atleast learn or attempt it?

Theres a lot of good captains on this board that got to have some good suggestions for a low-time FO on how to handle this. (I'm still learning all the tips and tricks of the CRM game)

I reread your original post and am wondering if you are really concerned about the brief or just looking for him to do the briefs exactly the way you want it? In other words is your concern that he has missed something and leaving some confusion over real issues or simply not reciting something verbatim from a company manual?

If you have real concerns about safety, then you should politely ask him how something is to handled that you have a thought about. Otherwise if he is just doing it different than someone else does it, determine if it really matters or not and go from there.

 

[gear_guy]

Just for grins ask one of your less experienced pilots, at a time when s/he isn't expecting it, to recite quickly and accurately your standard briefing. If they can't do it you probably need to review your policy. Just a thought.

'Sled

This is excellent advice. As an F/O, I wish there were more captains like this. Of course it's all in how you come across. It could be taken as you being a pompous know-it-all. But done correctly, this could save lives. Also, it helps groom the future captains. Too many folks still have the attitude of "my side-your side." I for one like a captain who wants to impart his good habits on me, and freely recognize his bad habits so that I don't pick them up. My goal as a captain (as it was as a CFI) will be to make my F/O a better captain than me. Good advice sled.

 

[rchcfi]

Pre-taxi departure brief:

W - Winds, Weather (VFR/IFR)
A - Aborts and Abnormals (before 80KIAS, between 80KIAS and V1, etc)
R - Runway in use
T - Taxi route and Terrain
S - SID and Specials (A/I use, etc.)

Before takeoff brief:

What we're gonna do if we have an emergency after rotation.
Initial assigned heading
Initial altitude assignment
Takeoff power setting

Descent/Landing brief:

Complete brief of approach to be used, then:
N - NOTAMS for destination airport.
A - Approach....Will it be coupled or hand flown.
T - Terrain
S - STAR and Specials

 

[Lead Sled]

91 all the way.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. What airplane are you flying? It might make a difference in how I suggest you attack yout problem.

 

[dalegribble]

KISS

Keep
It
Short
Silly

Too many words and items are worse than none at all!!!

 

[Huggyu2]

Huggy...
I don't like briefings where the pilot doing the brief restates every single item that is repeated day in-and-out either and for precisely the reason you mentioned - people do get bored and don't pay attention. But that's not an excuse to never use it. Reread my original post.

Just for grins ask one of your less experienced pilots, at a time when s/he isn't expecting it, to recite quickly and accurately your standard briefing. If they can't do it you probably need to review your policy. Just a thought.

'Sled

No need to re-read your original post; I understood it the first time. I don't need and "excuse to never use it" since I DO sometimes expand the briefing. Like when a new pilot shows up. But he/she is also handed the standards and expected to know and use them. That way, we get through the admin items that haven't changed, and focus on what our trianing goal is, or what is going to bend metal.
And when I do brief "standard", I sometimes ask "so, what do that standards say about that?" I don't do it for grins; I do it to instruct and evaluate another pilot.
Since you don't like pilots mentally wandering in the briefs, can I assume that you brief "standards" too?

 

[User546]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. What airplane are you flying? It might make a difference in how I suggest you attack yout problem.

Flying the CitationJet, and Ultra.

 

[SlapShot]

How do you guys feel about "as previously briefed?"

I realize it does not happen as often in the corporate world, but in the world of the commuters, you fly in and out of the same airports a couple times a day. Taking off the same runways heading to the same departure fixes. I have found that if I brief the same thing 4 or 6 times in one day, I am not even paying attention to what I am saying.

Also, our Ops manual says we can use the term “standard ______ seat takeoff”. However no where in the manual does it say what a standard takeoff is.

 

[SlapShot]

As far as an approach briefing, doesn't everyone just use the briefing strip on the Jepp plate?