Corporate Airlines (AA Connection) J32 down in MO

[climbhappy]

quote: you're a real ass.

flyfast : you've obviously never been tested. As I said this ain't pleasant, but two people in a cockpit on the final segment of a flight have to get it done. calling me an ass doesn't stop the grief of the passengers. I speak out for them.

AV80R: DON'T SPIN what I said.

Fatigue is a cause not an excuse. People are dead. There is no comeback for that. This is not about me. I fly an autopilot equipped boeing. I might as well be sipping a martini over the marker.

But I have the time (4000) in type and in a 1900 to speak. It's a tradegy sure, but don't miss the point. Somewhere during training or IOE someone missed something. When people die in airplanes for reasons like this, if the NTSB finds no other causes, then rubber stamping type ratings and signoffs have got to stop.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

quote: you're a real ass.

flyfast : you've obviously never been tested. As I said this ain't pleasant, but two people in a cockpit on the final segment of a flight have to get it done. calling me an ass doesn't stop the grief of the passengers. I speak out for them.

AV80R: DON'T SPIN what I said.

Fatigue is a cause not an excuse. People are dead. There is no comeback for that. This is not about me. I fly an autopilot equipped boeing. I might as well be sipping a martini over the marker.

But I have the time (4000) in type and in a 1900 to speak. It's a tradegy sure, but don't miss the point. Somewhere during training or IOE someone missed something. When people die in airplanes for reasons like this, if the NTSB finds no other causes, then rubber stamping type ratings and signoffs have got to stop.

You know, I was going to apologoze to you, then I read this quote. You're even a bigger ass than I thought you were the first time. I hope none of your friends ever die this way. Your speculations of rubber stamping types and signoffs is outlandish. If you don't know the CorpEx people, then shut your big mouth!

 

[zonker]

.......

 

[8HourPilot]

My thoughts too. ASA ground recurrent had a similar accident debrief where I believe a Mesaba AC had a CFIT during a non-precision approach in **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty weather. Their AC (Mesaba) was not fitted with a GPWS back then.

Express 1.......not XJ

 

[TIS]

There's something else that needs to be said

Please everyone, I know that this might be regarded as speculation so I'm going to try to stick as closely to facts that can be universally stated as possible.

It seems to me that if the focus is on the GPWS (and I realize it's the media doing the focusing) then the conclusion that this leads to is a CFIT accident. There's a lot of bickering going on about opinions here in this thread and the bottom line is that 13 people died - possibly because no one stopped the rate of descent before impact with the ground. That could be GPWS related but CFIT always has a VERY heavy pilot error component to it as well.

No one ever gets out of bed in the morning and says to themselves, "Gee, I think I'll go smash a perfectly good airplane in to the ground today - ON PURPOSE!"

If the preliminary reports are shown to be accurate in the final analysis, My bet is that pilot fatigue will figure prominently in this accident. Something came unglued out there and so far, it appears that the plane simply flew into the ground without intercedent action by the crew to stop it.

If that's what happened this may well be a watershed accident for pilots. The reason is that it represents an accident where crew fatigue is the most prominent factor in the accident chain. That is, it seems to have caused a loss of situational awareness that went unchecked because a GPWS failed to sound off. This may indeed turn out to be the most direct link between airline scheduling practices and an accident in the history of modern aviation.

As the details emerge through the investigation we will all learn more about how to avoid an accident. That's the point of acciden investigation. But this one could go further than most in changing the way our jobs treat us every day.

TIS

 

[apache]

I just don't know offhand what GPWS alert would prevent a situation where the gear and flaps are down, approach speed is not excessive, and the sink rate is not excessive. The GPWS thinks the airplane is landing, it just doesn't know where. JMHO

 

[apache]

I have removed my post because I do not want to offend anyone who might be sensitive to the truth. I was defending the allegation that Corpex rubber stamps type ratings.

 

[flyn96]

I think thats the reason EGWPS and TAWS was brought up. TAWS(GPWS) has an artificial TCF or terrain floor based on the nearest runway in its database and regardless of AC config it will alert you going below this floor even on perferctly flat terrain. It's to bad they didn't get around to putting it in sooner than the march deadline.

 

[dondk]

From a member of one company who lost airmen recently to Corporate Airlines crews...

We at Pinnacle feel for your loss, we first hand know the darkness that has settled upon your pilot group and wish all of you the best in these times.

Godspeed to ALL the crew members who lost their lives and to their families and loved ones.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Express 1.......not XJ

Thanks, I couldn't remember exactly other than a NWA carrier.

 

[eddie]

9n folks.

875JX = Casper.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

As in that airplane had a history of something?

 

[belchfire]

Tenative plan for a memorial service in the chapel at STL airport
Wensday 1300-1400.

More as it comes down...

 

[DTWFO]

My thoughts are with your pilot group and their families........

 

[scott's girl]

Another accident within a week. Why? My heart goes out to you, the family members and friends of these two brave pilots and the passengers on this flight. I just found out that the co-pilot was from Cincy, and I think that my Scott knew him from hanging around the Clermont County Airport. I know the pain you are going through first-hand after experiencing it myself just a year ago. Accept the support of those who offer their help to you. Friends are what you need right now.

Lisa
(Scott's Girl--Colgan #9446, 08/26/2003)

 

[JetScreamDriver]

Some Respect Please

Please, a little respect in this difficult time. At 3C we are a close family, we take some of your remarks very personally.

The crew was a remarkable one. I am proud to say they were both friends.

We all speculate, it's human nature. DON'T DO IT HERE!

Whatever may come of this, remember those who are no longer with us. Everything else is inconsiquiential to the lose of life.

For those of you with coments of support, thank you.

For the rest of you, I need not mention your names, go away. You will never earn my respect.

 

[climbhappy]

flyfast:

enough said! things like this and now the hendrick crash spark reactions.
it's an emotionial time. flying is putting it on the line every day. i said as you recall to do a gut check. let's review procedures, and memory items...

i'm sorry for your loss!

 

[belchfire]

Well said FFLS. Hey Jetscreamdriver go ahead and

name names...we need some damm levity for a

change. Lord but has it been a rough few weeks!

 

[belchfire]

update: memorial service

The STL memorial service is now
Going to be on Friday, 29 October,
1300-1400.

American Airlines Training Center
Auditorium
11495 Natural Bridge Rd
St. Louis MO

Busses will leave @1215 and 1245
and return after the service.

Thanks for the patience while trying to
get good info out!

 

[Pigpilot]

Mr. Sasse, you were a good friend and a good pilot! I so look forward to seeing you again sometime in the MAIN terminal!

Former Corpexers, the family members of those on board, my thoughts prayers and condolences are with you all.
Jim A
Ps. To all of us out there, lets just always remember to do the best job we can all the time!