Corollary to ALPA Scab list

[orioncontract]

I don't yet think there is a term for those who would, like scabs, undermine the collective bargaining of unionized pilot groups to myopically further their own selfish interests. I'm talking about Freedom Air types and those like them that would race to the bottom in terms of pay and work rules (which, in my mind, incorporates aspects of safety such as rest issues and duty rigs that go beyond the inadequate FARs and Whitlow interpretations). I initially thought 'rash' would work, but after discussing it with several CAs, think 'cyst' or 'boil' might be more appropriate.

I'd like to discuss not only a possible prejudicial nickname, but what specifically constitutes undermining pilot groups, to include the debate on pay and work rules, scope, etc. I'd also like narrow enough constraints so that no one can apply the new term to a broad group of people such that half of ALPA's members(or other pilot's union, for that matter) ends up on the new 'Boil' list, otherwise the effort becomes counterproductive.

May the heat of the moment give you purpose, but, God willing, may wisdom prevail.

 

[PsubS]

Oh, what a wonderful thread in which to slam multiple people for no apparent reason or benefit. Why don't you just go ahead and start naming names on your proposed "boil" list too...Might as well get to the real reason you want to define this--you want to deny these folks you decry as semi-scabs a jumpseat and give them grief over a choice they made.

A choice, by the way, to join an airline that perhaps doesn't quite fit the mold you want defined as a "high paying airline job." And no, I am not talking about Freedom here; your simpleton suggestion potentially includes just about everyone except Delta pilots if liberal definitions are used. Hey General--you're next if you allow your fellow pilots to accept a 30% pay cut...BOILS!!!

OK, so will your so-called boils or zits include anyone hired during the B-scale craze? LCCs? How about Southwest? They're an LCC, but unionized? Oh, are unions ok? Well, lessee, how about anybody except ALPA members? Wait, wait, I forgot, ALPA didn't do too much for certain smallish carriers that voted them in (they still received lower wages), so gee, are these guys "boils" too?

You, my flame baiting little friend, are a scoundrel. I have no use for you.

 

[orioncontract]

A scoundrel I may be, but yes, I want to name names and achieve a narrow consensus on those among us who would put their own interests above all others, and invite a discussion as to what that might include. I believe that scab is thrown around too broadly, and that there should be some other negative designation for pilots who may then receive negative reactions to their actions.

BTW, I think your suggestion of zit is even better than boil. Thank you for your input. Any seconds?

p.s. I invite controversy, but would appreciate it if the rest of you read and comprehend the original post (and this response) in its entirety. Thank you in advance.

 

[mar]

The proverbial race to the bottom

Ah yes. Here's a discussion all of us can sink our teeth into.

We're called: Dewzpayerz.

Or: Doospayers.

Or: Dues Payers.

Or: Ex-military RJ FOs.

Hmm. Probably not too fond of that one are you? No, but I'm sure some mainliner out there has got a name for you.

Those in glass cockpits ought not cast stones.

 

[de727ups]

I like.....

hemorrhoid...

An itching or painful mass of dilated veins in swollen anal tissue.

And I have no problem with branding Freedom pilots as such.

 

[350DRIVER]

The Freedumb guys had the choice and they made a very bad one at best, now every time they try to j/s you can laugh em off the airplane, refuse them a ride, and let them know that their past actions will never be forgotten. Make them know that they are not welcome aboard your aircraft no matter how badly they are wanting to get home to see the wifey, stick it to em.... Most of the guys I know are smart enough to refuse them and make it known "why" they are not welcome onboard. These guys bought into the JO propaganda and now it is time to make life a tad unpleasant for them when the time and opportunity presents itself. As far as the words to use, take your pick since many of them out there seem to fit.

3 5 0

 

[dseagrav]

Wow, going to waste my first post here...

I probably should not post here, as I am a student yet, but here goes:

I guess I don't have a point, but I do have a story, and maybe someone can learn something from it. I currently work in the computer industry. I am a system administrator. We have no union.

I live in a basement, and I make slightly more than minimum wage working under a crooked employer who cooks the books, scams his own children, and would fire me rather than look at me.

I decided this was a bad thing, and went looking for another job. I looked for about 2 years before I could even get an interview. When I arrived at the interview, there were three of us interviewees there for the position, which we were told was worth $36K/year. There was me, a younger guy, and an older guy. The prospective employer interviewed us all in turn, asking very basic questions. He seemed to be in a hurry. Finally, we were called into the meeting room.

"It's like this, guys. We think you're all equally suited for the position, so, well, bid for your pay. We'll take the lowest bidder."

I was shocked. Is this legal? The younger man immediately said "20K". The older man and the younger man went back and forth down to $14K when the oldeer guy started to cry. It's odd to see a grown man cry. "I can't believe this is happening - I went 3 years looking for an interview - I have a wife and kids! I spent my entire life in this trade, why is this happening to me?"

I walked out of the room then. I didn't want to work for someone who would do that to a man. I don't remember if I said anything or not, I was in shock. I don't even remember driving home.

Employers treat us like cattle because they can. We have no union. Nobody can afford to establish one anymore. All the computer jobs like mine have left the country, they've been outsourced to Indians who can barely speak English but work for pennies on the dollar. They'll never come back. I used to work with 15 other people in my department. They've all been fired. I am the entire department now. If I am fired, I am as good as dead. There are no computer-related jobs within 150 miles of here. Unless I can find a friend who will support me for awhile as I search for another job elsewhere, I have the rather grim choice of killing myself or being a burden to society. As much as I hate the idea of being a leech, I am too scared of death.

I am 25 years old. I spent the last 15 years of my life learning my trade. It was a complete waste of time. Not necessarily because computing was a dead-end trade, but because we didn't have a union to coordinate and protect us. The greedy among us hold the jobs now, those who will play dirty and backstab people to keep their jobs.

This is how the computer field is, where we have no union, and everyone's hands are dirty with the blood of our brothers. What once was a thriving industry is now a cesspool, a shadow of it's former self. We murdered our best and brightest to defend against the chance they would take our jobs. Now only the most efficient of the murderers survives. I have my job only because I am in a geographically isolated area and one has not yet come for me. I live in fear that I may show up at work one day and find the passwords are changed, the police are there to escort me outside, and someone who will work for less has taken my position.

I'm taking flying lessons hoping that I might get a job in aviation. This is a stupid idea, I know, but for some reason I want to do something I like to do. I figure maybe the aviation industry might have recovered after I finish training. After all, pilots cannot be outsourced - They can't send your job overseas to India over the Internet.

Unions are a political thing, with political views, and not everyone agrees with them, but a union does give you solidarity. Had their been a sysadmin's union, maybe I would have a decent job. The employers might not have learned they could treat us like animals and set us against one another. They might not have been able to throw us away like so much garbage when they discovered the indians can work cheaper than we can. Maybe I wouldn't have wasted a third of my life.

If you think it's bad to be mean to the scabs, look what they did to my industry. Imagine your own industry without the solidarity and protection of a union. That's what the scabs want. Maybe print them a copy of this post and show them what their actions will lead to. Maybe they'll learn otherwise. It's a real pity that we didn't.
Hindsight is 20-20.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I live in a basement.
make minimum wage working for a slave laborer.
all my jobs went to India.
there are no jobs within 150 miles.
I might kill myself.
Im 25 and have wasted a third of my life.

"I have the rather grim choice of killing myself or being a burden to society."



Society dont like burdens brother!!


thanks

 

[Simon Says]

Oh, what a wonderful thread in which to slam multiple people for no apparent reason or benefit. Why don't you just go ahead and start naming names on your proposed "boil" list too...Might as well get to the real reason you want to define this--you want to deny these folks you decry as semi-scabs a jumpseat and give them grief over a choice they made.

A choice, by the way, to join an airline that perhaps doesn't quite fit the mold you want defined as a "high paying airline job." And no, I am not talking about Freedom here; your simpleton suggestion potentially includes just about everyone except Delta pilots if liberal definitions are used. Hey General--you're next if you allow your fellow pilots to accept a 30% pay cut...BOILS!!!

OK, so will your so-called boils or zits include anyone hired during the B-scale craze? LCCs? How about Southwest? They're an LCC, but unionized? Oh, are unions ok? Well, lessee, how about anybody except ALPA members? Wait, wait, I forgot, ALPA didn't do too much for certain smallish carriers that voted them in (they still received lower wages), so gee, are these guys "boils" too?

You, my flame baiting little friend, are a scoundrel. I have no use for you.

Let me guess, you are new to part 121 flying. I guess that because you only have transport and fighter next to your name. Your road to flying is far different from my road to flying. I know the scurge that can come from my road. You will soon learn young one, of what I mean. And yes I do carry a list of those Freedom scum. If you want one I would be pleased to let you have one.

 

[Typhoon1244]

"I have the rather grim choice of killing myself or being a burden to society."

Why am I suddenly reminded of living in a van down by the river?

 

[enigma]

dseagrav,

I spent a half hour on the phone Friday with a ChaseManhattan supervisor. She called me to discuss a customer service survey I had recently completed. In the survey, I had not been complimentary to the dude in Delhi who couldn't understand my Texan. I had tried to talk to him using the Alpha, Bravo, Charlie alphabet. The Apple, Boy, Cat, alphabet. I had tried to just plainly enunciate. I tried everything and finally hung up. Believe you me, I gave the supervisor who called me later in the week, an earfull.

For me, I've vowed to make the location of help call centers a part of my pre-buy checklist for my next big ticket item. I type this on a Compaq Presario. They won't get my next computer purchase because their help center is in India. I must say that Compaq's help line personel have been good. I don't care. I will still look for a company that uses US workers. I have also read (in readers Digest I believe) that some companies who had moved their call centers out of the US, have now moved them back to the US. That's one for the good guys.

I just wanted to let you know that some of us are doing what we can to stem the hemorrhage that is outsourcing.

I don't do it because I am a union member. I do it because I am an American. A patriotic, proud, American.

Next subject. Unfortunately a union is not able to control economic reality. You seem to think that the union can in some way prevent market forces from affecting workers. The union can't do so. One only need look at today's aviation headlines to see that pilots are furloughed, wage and work rule concessions have been made, etc. Just as in your story, pilots, willing to work for less, have drawn down wages. In our case (pilots) the downward pressure has not even been market driven. It has been driven by a me first attitude. In their rush to get to the big money, too many pilots have worked for little of nothing. Even to the point of paying for a job.

Name calling may not be the way to discourage the backstabbers from shooting for the bottom, but it dang sure may discourage a potential backstabber from becoming such.

Scab is already taken as the term for a strike breaker, so I'll have to vote to call the underminers, ZITS. Zits will go away when the dirt is removed and proper pressure is applied.

enigma

 

[Gulfstream 200]

So...


you wont buy a computer from a company who outsources huh?


Who you going to buy from?

Dell?
Compaq?
IBM?
Toshiba?
Apple?

Everyone cries about outsourcing -- but when they need a new computer...they look for the best deal...they want cheap..and cheap means being competitive.

You can build the "all american" "no daamn jap er Indian parts in my computer" machine. It will only cost you about $14,000.

Nobody cries about the CHEAP price, just the lousy foriegn customer service.

Whats the answer?



P.S. - and YES -- DELL has brought thier business customer help back to the US, so if you buy 3-400 PC's you might get better English - but not the consumer end, they dont need to - people still buy them in the same numbers because they are CHEAP.

 

[FracCapt]

I'm not an airline guy, so I don't normally keep up with what's going on in the airlines...but can somebody give me a quick rundown(or point me to someplace that already has the story) of Freedom Air? Who are they, and what have they done?

 

[moscowcfi]

For professionals, many of us seem to be vindictive, bitter and unforgiving a-holes.

 

[Brett Hull]

I don't yet think there is a term for those who would, like scabs, undermine the collective bargaining of unionized pilot groups to myopically further their own selfish interests.

Why did you take a job flying a 50 seat jet for 18K/year? If it wasn't to further your own selfish interest (getting to a major), I'll kiss your a$$. After all, if people such as yourself would stop agreeing to work for such low pay, they could collectively bargain for more, right?

I vote for the 1st name on the "boil" (or whatever) list to be "orioncontract".

 

[moscowcfi]

Why did you take a job flying a 50 seat jet for 18K/year? If it wasn't to further your own selfish interest (getting to a major), I'll kiss your a$$. After all, if people such as yourself would stop agreeing to work for such low pay, they could collectively bargain for more, right?

I vote for the 1st name on the "boil" (or whatever) list to be "orioncontract".

I'm not sure if you're refering to me, since you didn't quote me, but I'll assume you are. Perhaps the problem here is that some people only think about everyone else from their own point of view. I for example, am a young guy with 1300 hours. How am I supposed to "stop agreeing to work for such low pay" if that is the only airline career path currently available to me? What you seem to be implying is that to ensure that I get paid fairly, I shouldn't even seek employment! How asinine is that? Perhaps I should just go knock on Delta's door and ask for my 777 captain pay right off the bat. I'm not in favor of low wages for pilots, for sure, but calling pilots who are working their way through the system to someday rise to the top these juvenile terms is stupid and unprofessional. Now, would I go to a company that is experiencing a strike and ask for a job to replace a striking pilot? I would think not. It's against my morals. Would I start harassing a pilot that did? No. Why? Because I don't know his circumstance. How is his self-interest less important than yours?

There is also a difference between self-interest and selfishness. Self-interest is seeking a path that will lead to better conditions for you and your family. I am persuing a career in aviation because I feel that with time it will lead to a steady income for my family while allowing us the freedom to travel. Selfishness would be for me to yell and scream at everybody who doesn't see things my way, and to demand that people remain unemployed rather than "undermine" MY paycheck. It would involved dehumanizing everybody in my way by coming up with cute little names for them that compare them to various diseases. I'm sorry, but your style of "own selfish interest" makes me question whether this even IS a profession, and not just an extension of Ms. Johnson's kindergarten class.

 

[moscowcfi]

I probably should not post here, as I am a student yet, but here goes:


I am 25 years old. I spent the last 15 years of my life learning my trade. It was a complete waste of time. Not necessarily because computing was a dead-end trade, but because we didn't have a union to coordinate and protect us. The greedy among us hold the jobs now, those who will play dirty and backstab people to keep their jobs.

You've been working on your trade since you were 10? For God's sake - you're 25! Quit your complaining, get a positive outlook on life, move if you have to and do something better with yourself. Whatever happened to enterpeneurship? If you don't like your conditions - change them. Why in the world would you be dead if your boss fired you? Is your desk equipped with a life support device that is keeping you alive? If you need some temporary help while you're seeking education or employment there are tons of both public and private assistance programs available. Education loans are very easy to get (though paying them off can be harder). The problem, it seems, is not your circumstance but outlook on life. I don't know your circumstance, of course, but I know that your attitude is unhealthy. Cheer up, go to a motivational speaker seminar if you have to, and quit your job if you hate it so much. Tomorrow is a new day.

 

[Brett Hull]

I'm not sure if you're refering to me, since you didn't quote me, but I'll assume you are.

You assumed incorrectly. I was referring to the person whom I quoted.

I for example, am a young guy with 1300 hours. How am I supposed to "stop agreeing to work for such low pay" if that is the only airline career path currently available to me?

It's not the only path available. You don't see CRJ or ERJ in my profile, and I'm making a hell of a lot more than 18K, and there are plenty of mainline pilots who have never flown for regionals either.

 

[Tripower455]

Would I start harassing a pilot that did? No. Why? Because I don't know his circumstance. How is his self-interest less important than yours?

How is the scab's self interest more important than the self interest of his union brethren?

This selfishness generally leads to well deserved ridicule, scorn and general banishment from mainstream aviation, regardless of his "circumstance". Anyone that scabs KNOWS this when they make the decision to cross, and have NO reason to complain about their treatment afterwards.

 

[orioncontract]

C'mon guys, think outside the box a little. Where do I begin? And some of you are doing a good job discussing this issue--everyone can read the thread and see who I mean (and it's not necessarily consistent throughout a reply, nor does it necessarily agree with my point of view). One more lamentation: Please read a post thoroughly before replying to it!!

The proverbial race to the bottom
Ah yes. Here's a discussion all of us can sink our teeth into.

We're called: Dewzpayerz.

Or: Doospayers.

Or: Dues Payers.

Or: Ex-military RJ FOs.

Hmm. Probably not too fond of that one are you? No, but I'm sure some mainliner out there has got a name for you.

Those in glass cockpits ought not cast stones.

Mar-unsure (please forgive me) if I, based on what you wrote, am a dues payer because of the way you morph the spelling of the word dewspayers into ex-mil RJ FO (which I am, though I'm also a Reservist, so in a way I'm still a military flyer), though the context of the next para seems to clarify. Please confirm the latter intrepetation is what you meant. If the latter is the case, please refer to my first post, as well as my reply FracCapt, et al, below and PsubS above in regards to pitting large numbers of union members against each other, as well as why the thread was started in regards to casting stones. Also, if I didn't pay my dues during my 9+ years of AD, going on deployments, workups, certifications, exercises, various detachments, various unpleasant ground jobs, and not to mention missing my first daughter's birth, what, exactly, was I doing, I'm curious to know. Freedom isn't free. As for mainline vs. RJ, I was completely unaware of the relative minority of DALPA pilots who hold this grudge when I accepted the job, especially since some of it developed while I was already in training. After the fact, all you can do is react, which is never fun.

FracCapt, Mar, and PsubS-Scope doesn't necessarily mean majors vs. regionals; in our case it's talking about Mesa's flying being farmed out to a non-union shop started specifically to undermine said employees' efforts to improve their working conditions, pay, etc. through a negotiated working agreement. Though I was not part of Comair's strike, I see why they did, and what their goals were, and it seems they took a step in the right direction, though the journey, from my perspective, is still just yet begun. If you can successfully address the scope issue within the context of this thread so that it includes more than what I've discussed but not half the unionized airline pilots, feel free to aim the thread in that direction.

It's not the only path available. You don't see CRJ or ERJ in my profile, and I'm making a hell of a lot more than 18K, and there are plenty of mainline pilots who have never flown for regionals either.

Brett Hull-though career paths differ, certainly you don't think yours is typical, or that I need to "build" time. My experience is that there is definitely a reason that corporate and fractionals are the road less travelled. Corporate, because you generally have to know someone (I don't), and fractionals, though they may pay better initially, I'm pretty sure don't have better end pay than Comair (I've no data, so if you could please post any info to make this a better discussion, it might be a worthwhile tangent), plus I don't have to cowtow to Martha Stewart (although the frac guys won't have to much longer, either ), nor drain her urine from the lav. As to not going to a major right now, as many of my peers did before me, I'm not sure if you noticed, but none are currently hiring. In fact many of the standardization guys that exited my shore tour squadron as I entered it were furloughed. And though a good number that got out immediately before I did ended up flying for jetBlue or FedEx, though I myself did not meet the requirements for FDX, I suddenly found myself in different circumstances. Having said all that, I too am disappointed in both my first year pay and my second, even though it tops $35 a flight hour (probably closer to an effective pay of $17-19/hour because of duty day; working vs. flying), though I deem the benefits excellent, and in many ways superior to what I had in the Navy. More importantly, if properly negotiated in an environment where employees and management are a team (such as at SWA, jetBlue, or airTran), I think we can come up with an agreement that is fairly reasonable considering they charge the customer mainline fares (until jetBlue gets the EMB-190s, that is) while paying us much less than a comparable mainline wage, even when taking into the higher CASM and lower reliability of an RJ; but only if all the RJ flyers toe the line! As it stands, our current contract makes for payrates (again, I've no data, so correct if I'm wrong) that are slightly superior to frac Capts' pay rates and most corporate Capt's salaries. If I'm wrong, please educate me, as I've very little to go on in this area (I'm not going to pay Air, Inc for the info), and am not attempting to look down on anyone (other than more obvious subjects of the thread). Don't forget also, that corporate flight departments, especially ones without a long history, seem to be subject to cost-cutting measures at any time.

Why did you take a job flying a 50 seat jet for 18K/year?

I'm also very curious to find out what your starting pay was. You may adjust it for 2004 dollars to make the comparison easier, if you are older. I'm curious to see why you think I should've taken all my toys and gone home. I mean I have a pretty bad attitude sometimes, but don't we all have setbacks which we have to overcome? Doesn't it require a little bit of a good attitude to persevere despite poor present circumstances? I may not be making O-3 pay, but it could very well be not too long until I do again, given our present contract.

350Driver-Could you post that zit/boil/hemorrhoid list?

Back to the subject, please...Focus, Dahniel-sahn, FO-CAHS. If we do this right, we might all learn a little. I appreciate the opportunity to try to effectively communicate my ideas, and never underestimate the power this discussion can have by informing and shaping the opinions of people who follow in our various footsteps.