continental pension underfunding

[Kugelblitz]

Given the senior pilot's actions these last few years (e.g. no insurance for new hires for 6 months and food stamp wages), do you really think they would "watch out" for us in a seniority integration with United? I guarantee you the United pilot's already know that all they have to do is give the upper 25% of our seniority list a sweet deal and the senior Cal pilots will in turn allow the United pilots to staple and furlough those hired the last few years.

Oh, and for those of you who want to knock me on complaining about the poor new hire conditions here but working for Cal nonetheless, the same argument could be used against changing the retirement age to 65 when we all knew we had to comport to that. For some reason, it is wrong for me to complain about our working conditions but not for a 59 year old to complain about retiring when we both knew what we were getting into. The senior pilots accused us of an 'entitlement' mentality because our junior people were getting lines rather than reserve or expecting a quick upgrade to captain. I suppose thinking one should retain one's $200K/year part-time job rather than passing the wealth to the next guy isn't entitlement? As though because one had to leave an airline position and not make huge money one can't find work elsewhere.

So, in the spirit of the CAL selfishness culture, you can see the junior apathy towards this pension underfunding issue even if it is ultimately against the interests of junior seniority pilots as well.

It is this complete disinterest in one another and a unwillingness to share the wealth that leads me to think that a junior CAL pilot like myself (just over a 1000 off the bottom of the list) would not fare well at all in a merger with another airline. I was not looking to besmirch (or in today's parlance "disrespect") the United pilots, it is just given the recent rhetoric regarding our merger they were the obvious choice for this post.

One other thing, with 147 guys on furlough I have seen 3 straight open time pickups on the 757/767 in the last week. There are always extenuating circumstances but they surely don't apply most of the time. This 'screw you I got mine' attitude is a death sentence for any organization, us included.

 

[SFR]

Given the senior pilot's actions these last few years (e.g. no insurance for new hires for 6 months and food stamp wages), do you really think they would "watch out" for us in a seniority integration with United? I guarantee you the United pilot's already know that all they have to do is give the upper 25% of our seniority list a sweet deal and the senior Cal pilots will in turn allow the United pilots to staple and furlough those hired the last few years.

Oh, and for those of you who want to knock me on complaining about the poor new hire conditions here but working for Cal nonetheless, the same argument could be used against changing the retirement age to 65 when we all knew we had to comport to that. For some reason, it is wrong for me to complain about our working conditions but not for a 59 year old to complain about retiring when we both knew what we were getting into. The senior pilots accused us of an 'entitlement' mentality because our junior people were getting lines rather than reserve or expecting a quick upgrade to captain. I suppose thinking one should retain one's $200K/year part-time job rather than passing the wealth to the next guy isn't entitlement? As though because one had to leave an airline position and not make huge money one can't find work elsewhere.

So, in the spirit of the CAL selfishness culture, you can see the junior apathy towards this pension underfunding issue even if it is ultimately against the interests of junior seniority pilots as well.

It is this complete disinterest in one another and a unwillingness to share the wealth that leads me to think that a junior CAL pilot like myself (just over a 1000 off the bottom of the list) would not fare well at all in a merger with another airline. I was not looking to besmirch (or in today's parlance "disrespect") the United pilots, it is just given the recent rhetoric regarding our merger they were the obvious choice for this post.

One other thing, with 147 guys on furlough I have seen 3 straight open time pickups on the 757/767 in the last week. There are always extenuating circumstances but they surely don't apply most of the time. This 'screw you I got mine' attitude is a death sentence for any organization, us included.

My point exactly....be proactive and don't rely on ANY job for your financial security!!!!

If you want ideas, send me an email....

 

[Flopgut]

No I don't disagree. None of us deserves this ride we are on.

And no one deserves any less help than another. So get ready to help out the bottom half of the list. There is a long way to go before it's even close to being comparable.

 

[CitationLover]

edited

 

[CitationLover]

Nice uneducated jab....When will the left start taking blame? the market was at about 12500 when Harry and Nancy took over congress....the market trades on EXPECTATIONS. It trades on what you think will happen in the future, not on what has happened. The higher Barry's poll numbers, the more the market tanked....since Barry was elected, the market is down about 2000 points.

I never thought we'd see pure stupidity in this country again like we saw under FDR. I saw it in Venezuala, but never thought it would be here again...I was wrong.....you'll still be blaiming Bush in 4 years when the deficits are nearly a trillion and your pension is gone (as well as your 401K...)

Uneducated? Well you can call me all the names you want, I am stating facts here re: defined benefit pensions.

How can you blame a management team for a DB portfolio loss when EVERYONE'S portfolio is losing. I agree airline management are in general buffoons, however the anger is misplaced here.

I am far from "left". About 180 degrees. Once you "republicans" who voted for Bush (that republican who massively increased government, massively increased entitlement programs, invaded a foreign country, etc. - he fooled me once, not twice). Barry Goldwater is spinning in his grave at what you label the "right". The religious fanatics are finally out of power.

 

[CitationLover]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/21/business/21pension.html

Typical reaction to a shoved down government regulation. Now imagine what the "stimulus" will do.

The problem in "funding" pensions is the apples to oranges problem. You fund with a single payment (spread out over "quarterly" contributions) and pay out with an annuity. Actuarial assumptions, are simply that: assumptions.

With interest rates continuing to drop, liabilities are only going to keep increasing (as interest rates go down, liabilities go up), even on a frozen plan like CAL's. Couple that with recent collapse of REIT's and Equities (which affects the other side of the equation: the assets) and you have a perfect storm. Its due to this relationship why pension funds swing wildly from "over"funded to "under"funded status. No amount of smoothing, etc can get you away from this. This is also why defined benefit plans are dying and slowly disappearing from benefit plans and switching to a much easier to fund defined contribution plans (401k, B funds, money purchase, profit sharing, etc.). When the equities market returns to a bullish state you will have articles stating the exact opposite: Pension funds being the single largest assets in corporate books (this happened in the late 90's and a few years ago).

 

[Flopgut]

When we [CAL pilots] negotiated the A plan to be frozen and the 100% lump sum be preserved the retirement age was 60. Since then we've had a great many retire normally and via the ERW. The entire A plan might now be superfulous to our needs going forward. Rather than lose a single cent protecting the plan we should pursue higher hourly wage, better work rules and job protections. You'll get no disagreement from the moderatly senior, young guys with several hundred thousand A plan dollars. They understand they can make it up, and they are in fact rather senior captains. It is, of course, the best thing for the junior guys as well. Now for the old guys? The ones that didn't take the ERW? Screw em! Sad, but we have to consider it. When the ERW dollars were put out there I was one of the first ones to take issue with what I thought was a small amount. I came to realize the amount offered was exactly what it should have been. CAL could have quadrupled the ERW amount and they would not have gotten even half as many participants. It's unfortunate, but true. The ones who stayed won't be ready no matter what. Doing anything for them would simply be throwing good money after bad. CAL understood it, CALALPA needs to do the same.

 

[CitationLover]

When we [CAL pilots] negotiated the A plan to be frozen and the 100% lump sum be preserved the retirement age was 60. Since then we've had a great many retire normally and via the ERW. The entire A plan might now be superfulous to our needs going forward. Rather than lose a single cent protecting the plan we should pursue higher hourly wage, better work rules and job protections. You'll get no disagreement from the moderatly senior, young guys with several hundred thousand A plan dollars. They understand they can make it up, and they are in fact rather senior captains. It is, of course, the best thing for the junior guys as well. Now for the old guys? The ones that didn't take the ERW? Screw em! Sad, but we have to consider it. When the ERW dollars were put out there I was one of the first ones to take issue with what I thought was a small amount. I came to realize the amount offered was exactly what it should have been. CAL could have quadrupled the ERW amount and they would not have gotten even half as many participants. It's unfortunate, but true. The ones who stayed won't be ready no matter what. Doing anything for them would simply be throwing good money after bad. CAL understood it, CALALPA needs to do the same.

curious....has the plan's "normal retirement age" been formally changed to 65 or is it still 60?

 

[Flopgut]

I've got to do little leg work on that. I forgot.

 

[Flopgut]

When we [CAL pilots] negotiated the A plan to be frozen and the 100% lump sum be preserved the retirement age was 60. Since then we've had a great many retire normally and via the ERW. The entire A plan might now be superfulous to our needs going forward. Rather than lose a single cent protecting the plan we should pursue higher hourly wage, better work rules and job protections. You'll get no disagreement from the moderatly senior, young guys with several hundred thousand A plan dollars. They understand they can make it up, and they are in fact rather senior captains. It is, of course, the best thing for the junior guys as well. Now for the old guys? The ones that didn't take the ERW? Screw em! Sad, but we have to consider it. When the ERW dollars were put out there I was one of the first ones to take issue with what I thought was a small amount. I came to realize the amount offered was exactly what it should have been. CAL could have quadrupled the ERW amount and they would not have gotten even half as many MORE participants. It's unfortunate, but true. The ones who stayed won't be ready no matter what. Doing anything for them would simply be throwing good money after bad. CAL understood it, CALALPA needs to do the same.

I needed to make that MORE clear.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Mesa....really? Wow, I did not know Mesa would fly me 2 trips this year so far and pay me $16k for it..

Quote right out of the NY Times article posted in this thread:

"Continental, along with a small number of regional airlines and a caterer, will also be able to take advantage of the provision."

The NY Times is even comparing CAL to regional airlines. Or do you think the cafeteria worker comparison is more flattering? Do you wear a hair net with your white shoes and polyester dress with your plastic gloves on?

And the only reason you could have possibly worked two trips and gotten paid is burning your sick time. You don't have duty rigs allowing you get a full guarantee while flying less than the hard time flown. You can not maximize a vacation week into anything more than a week. And sitting reserve and not being flown is not time off.

So get a new pair of plastic gloves, change your hair net, and wipe off the mash potatoes on your smock, you MESA major wanna bee.

 

[thor2j]

Quote right out of the NY Times article posted in this thread:

"Continental, along with a small number of regional airlines and a caterer, will also be able to take advantage of the provision."

The NY Times is even comparing CAL to regional airlines. Or do you think the cafeteria worker comparison is more flattering? Do you wear a hair net with your white shoes and polyester dress with your plastic gloves on?

And the only reason you could have possibly worked two trips and gotten paid is burning your sick time. You don't have duty rigs allowing you get a full guarantee while flying less than the hard time flown. You can not maximize a vacation week into anything more than a week. And sitting reserve and not being flown is not time off.

So get a new pair of plastic gloves, change your hair net, and wipe off the mash potatoes on your smock, you MESA major wanna bee.

Um , yes it still sucks, but last I checked CALs payrates from year 5+ are as high if not higher then most legacy carriers.

Secondly, if you live in base and never get called for reserve it is like having time off, especially if you have a 9 hour call out.

 

[Ex737Driver]

.......... The religious fanatics are finally out of power.

Alas, it is true. And with them go the last vestiges of a once great nation. Human secularism.....what a way to go!

 

[SFR]

Quote right out of the NY Times article posted in this thread:

"Continental, along with a small number of regional airlines and a caterer, will also be able to take advantage of the provision."

The NY Times is even comparing CAL to regional airlines. Or do you think the cafeteria worker comparison is more flattering? Do you wear a hair net with your white shoes and polyester dress with your plastic gloves on?

And the only reason you could have possibly worked two trips and gotten paid is burning your sick time. You don't have duty rigs allowing you get a full guarantee while flying less than the hard time flown. You can not maximize a vacation week into anything more than a week. And sitting reserve and not being flown is not time off.

So get a new pair of plastic gloves, change your hair net, and wipe off the mash potatoes on your smock, you MESA major wanna bee.

Nope. Wrong again......I just bid reserve and they flew me 2 trips this year so far.... as of 2/24/09


So, try again please.....

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Nope. Wrong again......I just bid reserve and they flew me 2 trips this year so far.... as of 2/24/09


So, try again please.....

No, I did get it. Reserve is not time off. Ask those sitting reserve in a crash pad if they feel like they have time off? Ask those sitting reserve with a commute if they have time off watching the weather and the flights?

It is not you SFR. It is the entire CAL pilot group who doesn't get it. Don't take it personal SFR. It's CAL.

But the main point is CAL is the MESA of majors. And CAL pilots like licking Larry's boots and would do the same if Jonathon Ornstein was the next CEO as well.

A contract is not based on FAR's. And it isn't worth anything if it only pays you for what you do. Hard time is not the measure of your worth. Everyday you stand in a security line, preflight and aircraft, check the weather, deal with maintenance, get to spend three hours in the crew room, go to training, and don't get paid, you are leaving money on the table.

This pension issue is simply the wipe saw which is going to reduce those 5+ year pay rates down to the other legacies to be competitive.

So how are those less than 5+ pay rates? How are your work rules? How is training? How is your scheduling section? I know. Just like MESA's.