continental pension underfunding

[densoo]

Um , yes it still sucks, but last I checked CALs payrates from year 5+ are as high if not higher then most legacy carriers.

A classic management argument. Payrates don't tell the story. Without meaningful duty rigs you get paid for what you fly. Fly 80 hours blocked, 80 hours paid. At a Legacy Carrier, duty rigs will get you 100 hours of pay for the same 80 hours blocked. This is essentially a 25% pay hike over CAL's payrates, leaving CAL in the dust in comparing of hours paid vice hours worked. Have you read of pilots at other carriers getting paid 120, 130, or even 140 hours of pay for an 80-hour line? Let's not even get into doing your annual qualification training, including travel days, on your days off! Or essentially aggregating your days off into a 7-day off block and then calling that your vacation. Another 7 days of work for free. Or getting getting actual hours worked subtracted from your pay when you call in sick (yes, this is what happens at CAL when you call in sick. it is sort of reverse sick leave policy. call in sick, they subtract hours you've already flown that month from your paycheck). See this thread of 2008 W2s for a couple of examples:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=119995&highlight=hours+paid+blocked

some quotes:

-- "blocked 886 hours, paid for 1253"

-- "3.8 hours of credit for every single day last year. Not just work days, but all 365"

-- "getting paid at an average rate of almost 1.4 times base rate for every single hour flown"

-- "Open time was paid double time" (open time at CAL is paid face value, and even at that pilots ravenously to pick it up even with pilots on the street)

-- "credited almost 1300 hours for the year"

-- "flew 308 hours in 2008, grossed 204,600"

Couple this with FAR max duty days, near FAR min rest (9:45 block to block routinely), coach seats for IRO across the Atlantic, FOs flying as CAs on ultra-longhaul flights, senior CAs bumped for nonrev by one-year catering "supervisors"--and much, much more--and you've got an entirely different pay and lifestyle at CAL. One that couldn't in any way be considered "Legacy Carrier."

Oh, yes, I almost forgot what this thread was about--the pension is underfunded. This is so that they won't have to pay the lump sum. Everyone will be getting the annuity. And if you think an annuity won't be at some point turned over to the government in your 15 to 20 years in retirement at 30% on the dollar, then you also think pay rates at CAL are just super-duper!

 

[CitationLover]

Oh, yes, I almost forgot what this thread was about--the pension is underfunded. This is so that they won't have to pay the lump sum. Everyone will be getting the annuity. And if you think an annuity won't be at some point turned over to the government in your 15 to 20 years in retirement at 30% on the dollar, then you also think pay rates at CAL are just super-duper!

For the umpteenth time, if you believe this you are STUPID. Management WANTS the lump sum option as it reduces the plans liability and administration costs once it is exercised. Are you too stubborn to see this? Management has NO right to the money in the plan once its there except if the plan is terminated and you have overfunded funds in there (which is not the case now). Call any ALPA R&I rep and please get FACTS before spouting off.

And your beef with an annuity is hardly making a point. What good is a lump sum option right now with equities falling 5% every week or so? Bonds aren't any better with companies failing left and right and a credit market tightening up. Where would you put the money, your mattress?

 

[densoo]

"Management has NO right to the money in the plan once its there except if....."

Thanks for making my point. At CAL "except if" means it "will."

 

[thor2j]

Densoo,

boy you really need to get all your facts right before you shoot off at the mouth.

We all know that CALs contract is the worst of the legacies, but when you state things that happen once in a blue moon as fact it really makes you sound like you know nothing. Why not state every single mother in California has 16 kids.

The days of working 50 hours and getting paid 100 are LONG gone. Ask anyone at AA,DL,UA, etc...
They are all working much more.

For the record I dead head in FIRST class to Europe, spend 24 hours there, then spend another 2 1/2 hours in First Class before I go to the cockpit for about 5 hours. Real tough. So once a week I spend 5 hours in the cockpit for 17+hrs pay. Once in the last year and a half have I been in coach.

We all know it is bad at CAL, but we plan on fixing it one way or another.

 

[densoo]

Densoo,

boy you really need to get all your facts right before you shoot off at the mouth.

We all know that CALs contract is the worst of the legacies, but when you state things that happen once in a blue moon as fact it really makes you sound like you know nothing. Why not state every single mother in California has 16 kids.

The days of working 50 hours and getting paid 100 are LONG gone. Ask anyone at AA,DL,UA, etc...
They are all working much more.

For the record I dead head in FIRST class to Europe, spend 24 hours there, then spend another 2 1/2 hours in First Class before I go to the cockpit for about 5 hours. Real tough. So once a week I spend 5 hours in the cockpit for 17+hrs pay. Once in the last year and a half have I been in coach.

We all know it is bad at CAL, but we plan on fixing it one way or another.

Your are right. I was rash. Please accept my corrections, below:

A classic management argument. Payrates don't tell the story. Without meaningful duty rigs you get paid for what you fly. Fly 80 hours blocked, 80 hours paid. At a Legacy Carrier, duty rigs will get you 100 hours of pay for the same 80 hours blocked. This is essentially a 25% pay hike over CAL's payrates, leaving CAL in the dust in comparing of hours paid vice hours worked. Have you read of pilots at other carriers getting paid 120, 130, or even 140 hours of pay for an 80-hour line? Let's not even get into doing your annual qualification training, including travel days, on your days off! Or essentially aggregating your days off into a 7-day off block and then calling that your vacation. Another 7 days of work for free. Or getting getting actual hours worked subtracted from your pay when you call in sick (yes, this is what happens at CAL when you call in sick. it is sort of reverse sick leave policy. call in sick, they subtract hours you've already flown that month from your paycheck). See this thread of 2008 W2s for a couple of examples:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthr...paid+block ed

some quotes:

-- "blocked 886 hours, paid for 1253"

-- "3.8 hours of credit for every single day last year. Not just work days, but all 365"

-- "getting paid at an average rate of almost 1.4 times base rate for every single hour flown"

-- "Open time was paid double time" (open time at CAL is paid face value, and even at that pilots ravenously to pick it up even with pilots on the street)

-- "credited almost 1300 hours for the year"

-- "flew 308 hours in 2008, grossed 204,600"

Couple this with FAR max duty days, near FAR min rest (9:45 block to block routinely), [text deleted: coach seats for IRO across the Atlantic], FOs flying as CAs on ultra-longhaul flights, senior CAs bumped for nonrev by one-year catering "supervisors"--and much, much more--and you've got an entirely different pay and lifestyle at CAL. One that couldn't in any way be considered "Legacy Carrier."

Oh, yes, I almost forgot what this thread was about--the pension is underfunded. This is so that they won't have to pay the lump sum. Everyone will be getting the annuity. And if you think an annuity won't be at some point turned over to the government in your 15 to 20 years in retirement at 30% on the dollar, then you also think pay rates at CAL are just super-duper!

 

[Flopgut]

For the umpteenth time, if you believe this you are STUPID. Management WANTS the lump sum option as it reduces the plans liability and administration costs once it is exercised. Are you too stubborn to see this? Management has NO right to the money in the plan once its there except if the plan is terminated and you have overfunded funds in there (which is not the case now). Call any ALPA R&I rep and please get FACTS before spouting off.

And your beef with an annuity is hardly making a point. What good is a lump sum option right now with equities falling 5% every week or so? Bonds aren't any better with companies failing left and right and a credit market tightening up. Where would you put the money, your mattress?

There are hundreds of millions of dollars in lost pilot pensions wearing an 800lb gorilla suit in the room with you that you should stop ignoring. CAL doesn't care nearly as much about the overall liabilities of the pilot A plan (annuity vs. lump sum) as they utterly hate their pilot employees and would love to scuttle their entire futures. Everyone last one of them.

 

[Homer Jay]

Densoo,

boy you really need to get all your facts right before you shoot off at the mouth.

We all know that CALs contract is the worst of the legacies, but when you state things that happen once in a blue moon as fact it really makes you sound like you know nothing. Why not state every single mother in California has 16 kids.

The days of working 50 hours and getting paid 100 are LONG gone. Ask anyone at AA,DL,UA, etc...
They are all working much more.

For the record I dead head in FIRST class to Europe, spend 24 hours there, then spend another 2 1/2 hours in First Class before I go to the cockpit for about 5 hours. Real tough. So once a week I spend 5 hours in the cockpit for 17+hrs pay. Once in the last year and a half have I been in coach.

We all know it is bad at CAL, but we plan on fixing it one way or another.

See, this is what scares me. It's apparent you've never worked for a carrier with real work rules, rigs, etc. You don't know what we're missing therefore you will have no problem voting in a subpar TA. You can count my vote as a big NO on TA#1.

 

[thor2j]

See, this is what scares me. It's apparent you've never worked for a carrier with real work rules, rigs, etc. You don't know what we're missing therefore you will have no problem voting in a subpar TA. You can count my vote as a big NO on TA#1.

Wrong as usual, I promise you I will be walking the streets before I vote for anything less the industry leading contract. All that I was stating is that Poca-A-Hols, I mean Densoo doesn't really know what he is talking about. I have many friends that work at all the Legacies, SWA, UPS, Fedex, the days of work 50 hours get paid for 100 and sit at home 28 days a month are long gone.

 

[CitationLover]

Thanks for making my point. At CAL "except if" means it "will."

You can't have your cake and eat it dummy. You complain about the plan being underfunded and now say I'm making your point regarding a plan being overfunded. what is it genius?

 

[CitationLover]

There are hundreds of millions of dollars in lost pilot pensions wearing an 800lb gorilla suit in the room with you that you should stop ignoring. CAL doesn't care nearly as much about the overall liabilities of the pilot A plan (annuity vs. lump sum) as they utterly hate their pilot employees and would love to scuttle their entire futures. Everyone last one of them.

If you can explain to me how the pilot pensions at UAL, USAirways, DAL were "lost" then maybe we can talk about the mechanics of a plan shutdown.

Can you explain this or are you simply ranting without knowing nothing about the subject?

You view this as a grand scheme by management versus a global economic crisis. Its apparent via your paranoia. Management is stupid on a lot of fronts, but if they are that stupid why do you think they are so smart to screw the pilots over? The pension plan is underfunded at this time through a combination of low interest rates and horrific investment returns (both of which are a product of the economic environment). It is not in its current state due to a deliberate manipulation from management. MOST pension plans are in bad shape these days, this is why defined benefit plans are a dying breed.