Continental Has Deadline for Pilot Contract

[mamba20]

I'm sure he like everyone else in management. Out for themselves. He's already proven that to the pilot group twice and we're only two months into his "leadership".

 

[chppr5]

Actually, you are wrong-
We (CAL Pilot Group) have been briefed what the JV means to us.
The thought that we will park our 'heavy iron' and lose flying while the company (and our passengers) fly on others is false in that-

If CAL were to stop flying to Germany (God help us!) and instead sold seats on Lufty and UAL, the profits would be nil, as we are not living up to our part of the agreement.
If, on the other hand.. we started flying to other destinations with those planes now sitting there, we would gain a portion of the profits from those Germany tickets.



The ball is in our court. I do like the point made in the article that
Pilots are asking for a package of wage increases, enhanced retirement benefits and work-rule changes. "It's a $500 million annual increase, which we recognize is an opening position," Pierce said. "We're waiting for a counter."

Opening or not, I do not expect major changes from the opener. If the Union was expecting this, they (we) should have asked for $700 million in increases!

Either way, I'm happy with our Scope where it concerns 70 seat RJ flying and above, and I'm happy with our Scope where it concerns Joint Revenue.

Gonna be an interesting summer and year!
always
motch

Maybe my point came across wrong.

"CAL does not make profit if they do not maintain a certain percentage of flying within Star Alliance."

So you might maintain your block hours, but where does your growth come from?
1. Selling seats on other airlines.
or
2. Increasing frequencies in the markets of the JV.

Growth within CAL is snuffed out while ASM increases come from the partners. You don't have to loose airframes to loose flying.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Maybe my point came across wrong.

"CAL does not make profit if they do not maintain a certain percentage of flying within Star Alliance."

So you might maintain your block hours, but where does your growth come from?
1. Selling seats on other airlines.
or
2. Increasing frequencies in the markets of the JV.

Growth within CAL is snuffed out while ASM increases come from the partners. You don't have to loose airframes to loose flying.

Another facet that most don't realize is that if the flying is done by another member of the star alliance, CAL does receive a portion of the profits but if they actually do the flying themselves, CAL receives a bigger portion of the alliance profits.

 

[jumppilot]

Actually, you are wrong-
We (CAL Pilot Group) have been briefed what the JV means to us.
The thought that we will park our 'heavy iron' and lose flying while the company (and our passengers) fly on others is false in that-
CAL does not make profit if they do not maintain a certain percentage of flying within Star Alliance.


Gonna be an interesting summer and year!
always
motch

Motch,

I flew with a union type and he said the JV, as it was written, would have allowed United Express to park a bunch of 170s in Houston to fly international routes we have 737s on, like Latin America, Mexico, etc. CAL would have been able to trim off a 737 while still meeting the terms of being in the Star Alliance (also flying the route).

That was the major part of the JV agreement many overlooked. It just doesn't affect widebodies!

 

[pipejockey]

Motch,

I flew with a union type and he said the JV, as it was written, would have allowed United Express to park a bunch of 170s in Houston to fly international routes we have 737s on, like Latin America, Mexico, etc. CAL would have been able to trim off a 737 while still meeting the terms of being in the Star Alliance (also flying the route).

That was the major part of the JV agreement many overlooked. It just doesn't affect widebodies!

If a bunch of 170's are parked in Houston to fly some 737 routes, then that would be fine as long as they are flown by pilots on the seniority list of UAL, or CAL, agreed? Death to anything with a "connection", "express", or "eagle" on the side.

 

[jumppilot]

If a bunch of 170's are parked in Houston to fly some 737 routes, then that would be fine as long as they are flown by pilots on the seniority list of UAL, or CAL, agreed? Death to anything with a "connection", "express", or "eagle" on the side.

Agreed, but I'm not talking about what should be, but rather what disaster could have happened had the JV passed as written.

 

[motch]

Motch,

I flew with a union type and he said the JV, as it was written, would have allowed United Express to park a bunch of 170s in Houston to fly international routes we have 737s on, like Latin America, Mexico, etc. CAL would have been able to trim off a 737 while still meeting the terms of being in the Star Alliance (also flying the route).

That was the major part of the JV agreement many overlooked. It just doesn't affect widebodies!

Are you talking about the LOA JrV from the furlough proposal back on 08?
Cause I'm not talking about that~

At one of the LEC mtgs in EWR last year, we got a great briefing about what Star Alliance means to CAL and to it's pilots.

For CAL to take advantage of ALL the benefits of Star, they need this Pilot Groups approval, per our CBA.
As far as parking aircraft yet still getting profits from seats sold on other Star Carriers.. you can't run a true International Airline by doing that. The profits they might get from "those seats sold" would not cover the costs of doing business.
As someone else mentioned, CAL earns greater profits from actually flying the passengers than from selling seats on other carriers.

I'm talking about the Scope Provision within our CBA when it comes to Joint Revenue Sharing with other Domestic (US) Carriers. We had a deal with Delta while part of SkyTeam, now the company wants the same deal with Star.

It is a good question to ask the Union-
If we agree to this,
1) Can CAL passengers be flown on UAX flights to International Destinations?
2) What protections do we have that CAL won't park 73's that fly to the Caribbean and just replace them with code-shared CRJ700's and EMB170's from UAX?

This is where you (we) need good legal representation to prevent these things from happening.
Had UAL pilots thought about some of these things, maybe UAL would not have parked all those 73's and replaced them with all those bigger RJ's.
Just my Opinion~

motch

 

[chppr5]

For CAL to take advantage of ALL the benefits of Star, they need this Pilot Groups approval, per our CBA.
"As far as parking aircraft yet still getting profits from seats sold on other Star Carriers.. you can't run a true International Airline by doing that. The profits they might get from "those seats sold" would not cover the costs of doing business.
As someone else mentioned, CAL earns greater profits from actually flying the passengers than from selling seats on other carriers."

Joint Ventures are a business tool not a labor tool. Yes CAL would earn greater profits if they actually flew the route. By selling seats on another carrier CAL would incur NO cost or RISK but still increase revenue and grow their international route structure thru STAR. I'm not saying you're going to park aircraft, but why would CAL grow internally when they can grow within STAR without the risk or cost of opening new routes. You guys have the ace in the hole, hopefully you'll hold on to it.

 

[motch]

The same reason a virtual airline doesn't just pop up and sell tickets and not actually fly airplanes.

Lufty and Star wanted CAL because we have a good product, and a good route structure.

If CAL parked every 73 and just made an agreement to give those routes to United and their RJ's, Lufty and Star would not be happy and would not keep CAL. Not to mention the loss in profits from actually flying them.
If CAL gives up half on those routes to UAX, the profit in code share seat sales will not make up for the lose of the actual revenue if we flew it ourselves.

There are obviously markets out there that don't justify a large, mainline aircraft (100+ seats). At the same time, the market may not yield enough profit if only one carrier flies it by themselves. This is where a JrV comes into play and what CAL management wants.

If there was a market for big RJ's to fly from IAH to destinations south, they would already be doing it. But if there's no agreement in hand where a Star passenger goes from point A to IAH on a CAL aircraft, then transfers to a UAX RJ and CAL still gets part of the profit.. then it ain't gonna happen.

Everything is a business tool. I understand that. This pilot group has something VERY important that management needs. That's a fact.
If management wants it (to grow and increase THEIR profits and bonuses) they will deal with the Union and get it done.
If they don't, and the deal dies.. CAL still flies to all the destinations it does now but it doesn't get to profit share on code shares with certain carriers to other places we don't fly. Or vice a versa.
How that affects Star and Lufty's relationship with CAL management is then up for discussion.

Lets be honest, Lufty and Star are not happy with UAL and LCC (USAirways?!). Hell, when you hear talks about Star Alliance.. you usually don't here the name USAirways. And UAL has issues too...

Let's have this discussion 1 Jan 11.

Always
motch

 

[chppr5]

The same reason a virtual airline doesn't just pop up and sell tickets and not actually fly airplanes.

Lets be honest, Lufty and Star are not happy with UAL and LCC (USAirways?!). Hell, when you hear talks about Star Alliance.. you usually don't here the name USAirways. And UAL has issues too...

Let's have this discussion 1 Jan 11.

Always
motch

I guess you've been sitting in on meetings with Albrecht.

 

[SFR]

Go CAL!!!

 

[Ben Franklin]

This pilot group has something VERY important that management needs. That's a fact.


Always
motch

Devil's advocate alert:

What happens when CAL just goes ahead with the JV without the pilots' sign off? Oh great, now you just "fly now and grieve later?" Then, after millions in new profits, new 787's and new hires... there's the stupid pilots grieving over a provision that is making the company huge again.. nice PR work, alpa.

Or, what if the pilots don't sign off on the deal and then CAL starts showing losses, begins furloughing and then Lorenz---oops, I mean Smisek takes CAL BK11 and then imposes new contracts on all the employees?

Oh cool, then CAL pilots just go on strike... all 40% of them?

CAL MEC thinks they have so much leverage with all of this... too bad CAL's CEO graduated #1 in his class from Harvard... guys with those credentials don't lose very often - if at all.

Don't be so naive to think that ALPA has CAL by the nads and that your contract is all but assured by January.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[motch]

What happens when CAL just goes ahead with the JV without the pilots' sign off? Oh great, now you just "fly now and grieve later?" Then, after millions in new profits, new 787's and new hires... there's the stupid pilots grieving over a provision that is making the company huge again.. nice PR work, alpa.

Ben, I don't really know. It is my understanding that they can not go ahead without the Unions approval. I thought our CBA was a legally bidding contract.

There certain things that are black and white.

What would happen if CAL told a crew to fly a 75 overseas without the ETOPS signoff? Pretty sure the crew would say NO and be legally right and protected.

I have to believe that the Company has to have our approval to do the JV.. otherwise, why would they even wait till Dec? Why not just do it now without the Union and Pilots Group agreement?!

 

[nimtz]

Go CAL!!!

Looking good Sean! If you ever bust up with the Mrs Roth, I'm sure "The Bachelor" is looking for a strapping entrepreneur like yourself for "Wings of Love II"...

 

[samballs]

Devil's advocate alert:

What happens when CAL just goes ahead with the JV without the pilots' sign off? Oh great, now you just "fly now and grieve later?" Then, after millions in new profits, new 787's and new hires... there's the stupid pilots grieving over a provision that is making the company huge again.. nice PR work, alpa.

Or, what if the pilots don't sign off on the deal and then CAL starts showing losses, begins furloughing and then Lorenz---oops, I mean Smisek takes CAL BK11 and then imposes new contracts on all the employees?

Oh cool, then CAL pilots just go on strike... all 40% of them?

CAL MEC thinks they have so much leverage with all of this... too bad CAL's CEO graduated #1 in his class from Harvard... guys with those credentials don't lose very often - if at all.

Don't be so naive to think that ALPA has CAL by the nads and that your contract is all but assured by January.

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

Man, you must be a national guy at ALPA. They only think that way. The rest of the world thinks difference, ALPA has failed thoughts