Consumerist: "Should a First Officer Make More Than 23k?" Ill informed Commenters

[Microclimates]

I agree with the above post. If you are not sure if you are one of the pilots bringing our industry down, I'll just let you know. If you have no college education or military experience, are in ridiculous debt due to your flight training (100k or more), and working for a regional, then you are part of the problem. Anyone with sound judgment would not put him/herself in that situation, and anyone without sound judgment should not be flying airplanes. If you are $100,000 in debt and a regional first officer, then you are basically working for free for five years just to pay off your debt. The problem is these pilots I just described think people respect them because they are airline pilots. The truth is the general public looks down on regional airline pilots. They have no respect for us because we don't even have respect for ourselves. I know too many pilots in their mid to late 20's that live off of their parents. Rant over.

Let me start by saying that I am lucky enough not to fit your "part of the problem" profile (my only current debt is a very boring mortgage, thank God). That said, I think that the situation you describe is common throughout many professions, not just aviation. I have a friend who got a Masters in Social Service Admin, from the University of Chicago. Add that tab to her UCLA financial aid tab and I wouldn't be surprised if she owed about 100k. Yet the average salary in her field is about 50k, entry (for people with graduate degrees) is about 35k.
Her husband got an MA in public policy, also at a good school, and probably owes around the same. Depending on his career choices, he may make it big or may top out at around 100k.
Any lawyer who chooses the prosecutor's office, or the public defendant office, as a career, will be in a similar situation.

The biggest problem for us is the fact that you can't take your experience with you to other employers, like all the other professions can. So whereas a public defendant can ditch his/her low paying gig and go to a law office to make real money, whatever new job we go to will always pay less than the last job we held, for at least the first year (a 2nd year regional first officer probably makes the same or a bit more than a first year United FO on reserve, no?)
The other big issue is that it is hard to measure accurately pilot performance, beyond pass/fail or, God forbid, live/die. So in most cases, once the economy requires a big hiring push for the airlines, they adapt their required qualifications potentially all the way down to "must have pulse", as even the majors have had to do on occasion.

I personally am not offended by a pilot who invested in a "0 to hero" course, as long as we're talking about people who know their limitations and are true professionals (I have witnessed many scary sim rides by 'experienced' seasoned professionals).

KBUF was a tragedy; I think we are over thinking this whole mess. the Captain (poor guy) was mediocre, as proven by his numerous failed rides. His checkride history should have precluded him a career in 121. For me it's just that easy. GIA may or may not have made him the pilot he was, but Colgan is responsible for choosing to put him in command notwithstanding his record. that's it.

counterrant over.

 

[OldManPilot]

This is a very interesting string and I hope every pilot takes the time to read and understand what they are reading.

I have said for many years that pilots need to take control of their craft. I like to use the AMA (American Medical Association) as and example of what needs to be done in the aviation community. The AMA like it or not is a union; however, they control their own profession. They control who has Medical Schools, the criterea to get into medical school. The corriculum in Medical Schools and the dictate much of the training needed once Internship begins all the way through residency.
We as pilot should use this as an example. You can take the entire pay issue to one true element. Pay is low because there are too many pilots. If we controlled our craft, we would dictate who and where there are flight schools. What it takes to get into the flight school. And most importantly, how many are allowed to attend each and every year. Want to make more pay? Try drying up the glut of pilots comming into our industry from every direction you can imagine.
I spent many years of study and years to get to where I am only to see pay come down and down.
We MUST take control of our profession, and I am up for suggestions.

 

[800Dog]

Good point. Most pilots out there that went the Regional rout started @ $19-$25k and worked there way up. There is an expectation that ONE day we will either upgrade or move on to a major and make more money. The bad part is that if you are a 10 year captain at a regional and making $80k and you get hired at FedEx or UPS, Delta or United, you have to take a SUBSTANTIAL pay cut the first year or two and then the pay gets up there again.

You are wrong. Second year pay at the listed companies is as follows:

FedEx $74-$136
UPS $82-$122
Delta $72-$99
United $52-$74

Also, do not forget the benefits. Retirement, 401k, health, work rules etc. etc.

 

[808pilot]

wow.... since i joined this bizarre website back in 05....this is by far...the best thread i have read....for the most part people have responded with intelligent arguments...no one outright attacked the other.....i have actually learned something from reading this... if only it could carry on.....

 

[propdog]

You are wrong. Second year pay at the listed companies is as follows:

FedEx $74-$136
UPS $82-$122
Delta $72-$99
United $52-$74

Also, do not forget the benefits. Retirement, 401k, health, work rules etc. etc.

He is talking about first year pay and the fact most have to take a paycut to start with a major. As a DAL pilot, I can assure you that I did not make $72/hr on the first year. I did take a major pay cut to work at a major.

 

[800Dog]

He is talking about first year pay and the fact most have to take a paycut to start with a major. As a DAL pilot, I can assure you that I did not make $72/hr on the first year. I did take a major pay cut to work at a major.

Reread his post, he talks about first and second year pay. Anyone can suck up a pay cut for one year unless they are living beyond their means. I took an hourly pay cut my first year at Delta as well but, it was just one year and I enjoyed a nice raise in year 2.

 

[Lear70]

Reread his post, he talks about first and second year pay. Anyone can suck up a pay cut for one year unless they are living beyond their means. I took an hourly pay cut my first year at Delta as well but, it was just one year and I enjoyed a nice raise in year 2.

Speak for yourself...

One is not "living beyond his means" if they have to struggle taking a 50% or more pay cut!!

The only way many survive is because a spouse works or they have enough saved and/or can sell some "luxury items" (like I did) to make it through a year earning HALF what they were.

I suspect if most of us were to take a personal inventory, taking a 50% pay cut would mean that at least one or more bills would not get paid. Heck, a house loan only looks at fixed debt and EXPECTS a 40-50% debt to income ratio (which doesn't include utilities, food, gas, cell phone, etc).

(I got the gist of Blazer's post and agree, having had to endure it in recent years).