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Confessions of a Union Buster

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Sounds like 140 of those Zantop pilots made the right move. Of course, pilots these days are a bit brighter - we realize that flying airplanes costs money and we will not subsidize a bad business with piss poor wages. We are professionals and deserve to be paid accordingly. If management can't pay professional wages for professional work then it's time to close shop or get new management. :)

Or get new pilots.
 
I am judging your stance on Unions and your comparing some small outfit in YIP with a company like NJA (or any other large airline).

Sorry you had a bad experience with the IBT with a company most have never heard of back in the day. But to compare some mom-and-pop fly by night cargo carrier, (and their apparent lack of a sustainable business) to a pilot group the size of NJA (and the need for a solid contract) is apples to oranges. Your company did not go out of business because of the Union or contract. They went out of business most certainly because of a business decision or two made by the people running the airline or at worst the economy at that time.

Glad you love it like a 5 year old. Can't put that down. I would rather fly than work ALMOST any other job. But won't do it for substandard wages or working conditions. Even my small time job now pays really well, and offers a great QOL. But if that weren't the case I'd be attempting to leave.

Hell, MLB players love to play baseball, and they have a Union..Because if they didn't they'd still be stuck in the 1950's wages while the owners make hundreds of millions off their players hard work.


The owners should make hundreds of millions, they bought the teams, they risked their capital, it seems to me. If there were no players' union, I bet player pay would be pretty good anyway, since TV revenue got so high.
 
Gutshotdraw is making himself into quite the liar by stating that G4 is as far from management as one can get.
 
Few students of history here. Fewer that have been laid off or flew a BK carrier down. Almost none have ever started a business or spent much time in the non-flying world. It's all about luck, timing, networking, and interviewing. It's less and less about aviating.

I've left the country 3 times in as many years to fly, because there are no job here in the US. ALPA did (does) nothing to help me out. My pilot friends have been the only ones to help. Got a call today, even. I've started two businesses, neither are doing too well. Capitalization is key. I'm living on my retirement. I was a "driver's helper" for UPS last month at $8.50 an hour. College degree which is meaningless after 20 years if you've done nothing with it.

I know who Zantop is. I know who Braniff, Pan Am and Eastern were. I count many friends and associates that have flown at those carriers. I had instructors at ATA that came from those places and they've forgotten more about aviation and airlines than many of you will ever learn. I've ridden in just about every jumpseat out there more than once. You're all about the same as far as piloting goes. If they were ex-military, that's their story. If they were "hippy-civilians" like me, and survived this industry via those defunct carries, that's their story. If they were just commuter/RJ pilots that's theirs. Of the three, the most interesting and most deserving of my personal respect as aviators are the second group. No offense to those that have served, and I appreciate your service.

Walk a mile in a man's shoes......
Well Said

Or get new pilots.
Well Said
 
Big surprise YIP that you'd rather replace your pilots than pay them a reasonable wage in the first place.
 
Gutshotdraw is making himself into quite the liar by stating that G4 is as far from management as one can get.

Hey Gutshot, this means if you say you don't believe in the Conspiracy, you must be part of the Conspiracy. The black helicopters are appearing on the horizon! Can you hear the beating of the rotor blades?
 
Hey Gutshot, this means if you say you don't believe in the Conspiracy, you must be part of the Conspiracy. The black helicopters are appearing on the horizon! Can you hear the beating of the rotor blades?

No conspiracy, just's Gut's reputation by making a statement that has turned out to be far from true. Pity, he does make some reasonable arguments, but he went out on a limb in your favor and has been proven wrong.
 
Reasonable according to whom?

The pilot of course. If the pay is too low, the pilot is going to move on. Look at the regionals for example. There is no way I can afford to raise a family of 5 on a regional F.O. salary, so why would I go there?

Look at the investment the company has put into you and me over the years with training (My training bill is close to $1,000,000 since I have been at the company. Being on the Gulfstream yours has to be higher), actual flying (emergencies we have to deal with, etc.), and experience dealing with owners which as you know, is something not everyone is good at. The managers acknowledge routinely that the pilots are the face of the company, and we consistently get owner feedback of 99% positive.

Now compare us with our brethren at the 121 carriers. They get on the plane and turn left into the cockpit. We turn right. They think that making an annoying P.A. announcement is good customer service. We fold napkins, clean cabins, present catering, tidy up after they are done with their seafood trays, clean the lavs, etc.... The airlines are a commodity (which thanks to the previous CEO and current EMT we are in SERIOUS danger of becoming) while as of yet we are not. Yet their F.O.s make as much as our Captains. Their Captains make more than ours. Why is that?

We are the customer service agents, the baggage handlers, the pilots, the commissary, the chauffeurs, at times the dispatcher. In short, the 121 guys fly the planes. We do it all and are paid less.

For the above reasons I think the company is getting a bargain on us. There is a difference in being a pilot and being a NetJets pilot. We have been specifically trained to do this job at an incredible investment by the company, and with the 99% approval rating from the owners it is safe to say we do it well.

Our SIC's should be bringing home no less than $150,000 and our Captains should be no less than $200,000.
 
"Our SIC's should be bringing home no less than $150,000 and our Captains should be no less than $200,000."

F-Man, Do you think NJets would be profitable if they paid those types of salaries?

"Yet their F.O.s make as much as our Captains. Their Captains make more than ours. Why is that?"

Maybe economics of scale.
 
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"Our SIC's should be bringing home no less than $150,000 and our Captains should be no less than $200,000."

F-Man, Do you think NJets would be profitable if they paid those types of salaries?

"Yet their F.O.s make as much as our Captains. Their Captains make more than ours. Why is that?"

Maybe economics of scale.

Absolutely. If LUV can pay it and be profitable, so can NJA.
 
Reasonable according to whom?
being unemployed at the time of my hire at JUS, I thought they were low also about $25K less than I made at Zantop, but way way above $0. So I guess I thought they were reasonable.
 
Fisch, It's none of my business (I'm a 91 guy) but don't you think you are comparing apples to oranges with your NJ and S-west comparison? Totally different business model, revenues, and profits. S-West has hundreds of thousands of customers per year and NJ only several thousand owners/ charters. I wish you guys luck but 200K does not seem realistic.
 

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