Compass

[Flyer1015]

Sorry I wasn't in the room.

Well lets anayze the 4 parties. I assume the four were Compass management, Compass ALPA, Delta management, and DALPA. Compass ALPA would want the flowthrough to contine, and Compass management probably as well to keep the longevity for the pilot group low. The lower on the longevity ladder, the lower the pay. Delta management might have had a little interest in not wanting a flowthrough, but to them, a pilot is hired based on qualifications. DALPA on the other hand is the one wild card who could have made that decision. As seen with AMR management's deal with Eagle, and all their pilots guranteed flowthroughs, the airline doesn't care if its wholly owned carrier flows to mainline. APA could have put up a fight but I think they have bigger fish to worry about. By process of elimination, of the four parties, I think we can easily single out one.

 

[Explosive]

Well lets anayze the 4 parties. I assume the four were Compass management, Compass ALPA, Delta management, and DALPA. Compass ALPA would want the flowthrough to contine, and Compass management probably as well to keep the longevity for the pilot group low. The lower on the longevity ladder, the lower the pay. Delta management might have had a little interest in not wanting a flowthrough, but to them, a pilot is hired based on qualifications. DALPA on the other hand is the one wild card who could have made that decision. As seen with AMR management's deal with Eagle, and all their pilots guranteed flowthroughs, the airline doesn't care if its wholly owned carrier flows to mainline. APA could have put up a fight but I think they have bigger fish to worry about. By process of elimination, of the four parties, I think we can easily single out one.

It comes down to $$.

To only have a pilot around for as little as 30 months is a bit short, don't you think? During the initial flow negotiations with NWA management in 2006, the company wanted the entire "flow" to end as soon as the last furloughed NWA pilot returned to mainline. After it was agreed that a bidirectional flow was to be long-term, the company proposed 5 years. They eventually settled at 30 months.

I was told by management once that longevity vs. training/recruiting costs had a break even between 5 & 7 years. With this in mind, I highly doubt that the Trans States I know would have paid one single penny extra to keep the flow up.

The flow up & down are two separate entities. For DALPA to give up the flow down would have been another major scope concession.
For Delta/Trans States to keep the flow up for Compass new hires would have been a major expense that was unnecessary. How can flight ops management, even if they wanted a flow up, go to the bean counters & justify that?

 

[Flyer1015]

For Delta/Trans States to keep the flow up for Compass new hires would have been a major expense that was unnecessary. How can flight ops management, even if they wanted a flow up, go to the bean counters & justify that?

Same way as the still wholly-owned Eagle guranteed a flow (no interview) for every single Eagle pilot on property as of Oct 11, 2011 to AA. And in that deal, the APA (American pilot union) wasn't even involved. It was a deal between AMR management and Eagle ALPA.

 

[Explosive]

Flyer, The flow wasn't extended to all eagle pilots out of the kindness of their hearts...

AMERICAN EAGLE MASTER EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
150 WESTPARK WAY, SUITE 130 | EULESS, TEXAS 76040 | 817-685-7474 | FAX 817-685-9797
July 19, 2011
Fellow American Eagle pilots:
On January 26, 2011, the MEC filed a grievance over AMR’s plan to transfer the ownership of Eagle’s aircraft to AMR in anticipation of the possible divestiture of American Eagle from AMR.
AMR’s stated desire was to own these aircraft for a number of reasons, not the least of which was to facilitate the transfer of Eagle’s flight operations to other feed operators in order to, “diversify their feed.”
If we were to win this grievance, it would not stop the transfer of ownership of Eagle’s aircraft to AA, nor would it stop the transfer of Eagle’s flight operations to other feed operators. What it would require is that pursuant to Section 1 of our collective bargaining agreement, Eagle pilots and the Eagle contract would have to transfer with aircraft to the other feed operator. For example, if AA were to outsource some of Eagle’s current flying to Mesa Airlines, the number of Eagle pilots required to staff those aircraft and contract would go with the aircraft to Mesa Airlines and be employed at that carrier with a five year window during which they could elect to transfer back to Eagle. In the end, though, the flying would leave American Eagle. This grievance was about pilot jobs, not the transfer of assets.
Today, we settled this grievance for an option the MEC believes to be better than our original contract provisions. The settlement is as follows:
1. Every American Eagle pilot who is on the American Eagle pilot seniority list as of October 11, 2011 will be offered a job as an American Airlines pilot in the future.
2. American Eagle pilots hired under this settlement agreement will not be subjected to a pre-employment interview or pre-employment medical examination prior to transferring to American Airlines.
3. American Eagle pilots will be offered a minimum of 35% of every American Airlines new-hire class. In the event that 35% of American Airlines’ new hire class is greater than 25 pilots per month, American Eagle will be required to release at least 25 Eagle pilots per month.
4. If American Eagle loses flying and such loss results in a furlough, American Airlines will increase the percentage of Eagle pilots in their new-hire classes to a minimum of 50%. The meter above will continue to apply.
5. If American Eagle loses flying and such loss might result in a furlough, American Airlines will also attempt to negotiate preferential interviews for American Eagle pilots at the carrier who has successfully bid for the flying that Eagle is losing.
6. This settlement does not impact the existing rights of American Eagle flow-through pilots who currently possess American Airlines pilot seniority numbers, or the rights of the 824 pilot positions awarded as remedy by Arbitrator Nicolau. Those provisions are in place and will remain effective without regard to this settlement agreement.
7. American Eagle has agreed to clarifying contract language regarding the scope of work that American Eagle pilots perform in the event of a divestiture.
AMERICAN EAGLE MASTER EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
150 WESTPARK WAY, SUITE 130 | EULESS, TEXAS 76040 | 817-685-7474 | FAX 817-685-9797
This grievance settlement agreement is divided into three documents. The first document is a three-party agreement between American Airlines, American Eagle Airlines, and ALPA delineating the process by which American Eagle pilots are offered pilot jobs at American Airlines. The second document is a two-party agreement between American Eagle Airlines and ALPA delineating the process that Eagle will utilize to transfer pilots to American Airlines. This document also describes the withdrawal of this grievance as a result of this settlement. These first two documents are available on the ALPA-Eagle website and ARE NOW EFFECTIVE.
The third document is the new scope language that is proposed to take effect in the event of a divestiture of American Eagle from AMR. This language is a change to our collective bargaining agreement and is contingent on the divestiture of American Eagle. Pursuant to a resolution ratified by the MEC, this letter requires pilot ratification in order to be effective. Therefore, we have posted this draft Scope Letter of Agreement on the ALPA-Eagle website and will begin the information process at the end of this week. A pilot vote will be scheduled shortly and more information will follow in this Friday’s hotline.
Although this settlement is a major step forward in securing job progression and security for every American Eagle pilot, we remain in unstable and quickly changing times. The MEC continues to expect that the AMR Board of Directors will be considering the potential divestiture of American Eagle from AMR at this week’s Board meeting and an announcement on Eagle’s future ownership could be made as early as tomorrow.
We will have much more information for you on this settlement and Eagle’s possible divestiture following the conclusion of AMR’s Board meeting this week. Your Pilot-to-Pilot representatives have been briefed on this settlement and are in possession of an FAQ regarding the settlement. In addition, we have created a new Eagle ALPA Facebook page to provide information to you in a timely manner. Our communications volunteers are monitoring this site in order to address your concerns. Be sure to “Like Eagle ALPA” on Facebook so that you will receive our status updates.
My thanks to all those who worked so diligently to bring this grievance settlement to completion. That includes our grievance and contract compliance volunteers, legal staff, negotiating committee volunteers and also representatives from American Airlines and American Eagle who worked late nights and early mornings over the past six days to move this agreement from concepts to specific language.
Please stay tuned for further updates, including this Friday’s hotline regarding the pilot ratification process for our draft Scope Letter of Agreement.
Please reach out to your local representatives with questions.
Fraternally,
Tony Gutierrez
MEC Chairman

 

[Flyer1015]

Explosive, do you really think the future is any different for any Delta Connection carrier under Delta's umbrella? Take a hint from Comair. The 50 seaters are headed for the chopping block and the next 5 years will see a drastic decrease in 50 seat RJs. And what will we get? Absolutely nothing from Delta! We'll be standing their holding our tails wondering wtf just happened? Meanwhile, if Eagle gets screwed and starts parking airplanes, 50% of ALL future newhire classes at AA will consist of Eagle pilots, everyone, from top down. No interview, no medical.

So what do we Connection pilots get once Delta starts to eliminate unprofitabe RJ flying?

Nada, mi amigo!

 

[titans10]

Explosive, do you really think the future is any different for any Delta Connection carrier under Delta's umbrella? Take a hint from Comair. The 50 seaters are headed for the chopping block and the next 5 years will see a drastic decrease in 50 seat RJs. And what will we get? Absolutely nothing from Delta! We'll be standing their holding our tails wondering wtf just happened? Meanwhile, if Eagle gets screwed and starts parking airplanes, 50% of ALL future newhire classes at AA will consist of Eagle pilots, everyone, from top down. No interview, no medical.

So what do we Connection pilots get once Delta starts to eliminate unprofitabe RJ flying?

Nada, mi amigo!

What do you think you deserve from delta if they park all the 50 seaters? When you interviewed and hired by your DCI carrier what did they promise you? Delta can and will do whatever they think is best for Delta. YOu do realize that. I have no say or dog in the fight.

 

[Flyer1015]

What do you think you deserve from delta if they park all the 50 seaters? When you interviewed and hired by your DCI carrier what did they promise you? Delta can and will do whatever they think is best for Delta. YOu do realize that. I have no say or dog in the fight.

Yeah, actually you are right. Why hire regional jet pilots with 4000-10,000+ hrs with 0-5000+ hrs turbine PIC time, when you can create your own ab-initio programs. I guess those 737 guys at Delta bailing for Southwest a few years ago really irked Delta management.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/wats-2011-delta-ponders-pilot-sources-355820/


Delta Air Lines is considering a "blue sky" theory for how to meet future pilot demands. Called "CAPT," for Civil Airline Pilot Training programme, the carrier stresses the idea is conceptual in nature and that it is not committed to the implementation, nor is it engaged in discussions with potential sponsors.
Speaking at the World Aviation Training conference in Orlando, Florida on 19 April, Arnie Kraby, Delta's manager of pilot selection, said a dramatic pilot shortage is a "gathering storm" that industry must address. Delta alone in the next 15 years will lose 7,600 pilots who will reach age-65 and retire, says Kraby.
CAPT would mainly look to high-tier college aviation programmes as means of cultivating pilots. "Statistical data indicates that a quality college education from a top-tier university or college provides us with a much better pilot in terms of fewer training failures, overall performance and reliability," notes Kraby.
The programme would include advanced jet aircraft simulation training and would be on par with military training, which produces skilled pilots qualified to fly high-performance aircraft in a shorter period compared with the civil sector, says Kraby. He is a former US Air Force pilot who flew Delta aircraft for 38 years,
"First we need to educate, mentor and train students," says Kraby. The CAPT programme would invite stakeholders across industry to come onboard as sponsors and jointly work out solutions. One of the first goals would be to build an outreach programme focused on middle- and high schools in an effort to stir up enthusiasm for the pilot profession.
CAPT candidates would be carefully screened to choose only those who have skills necessary to become a pilot. The candidate would have to maintain a 2.75 GPA, and 3.0 GPA for aviation courses. Upon earning a degree, the candidate would be required stay on as CAPT member and accrue 1,000 hours as a flight instructor at the university, thus providing a stable workforce for the school and to acquire FAA-required flight hours.
Graduates of the programme would be guaranteed an interview at a sponsoring regional airline. Then, after meeting regional airline requirements and logging required number of hours for a mainline slot (Delta requires 1,200 hours), CAPT would offer an interview at a major airline sponsor-- "another light at the end of the tunnel", says Kraby.
With aviation training costs running $80,000-$100,000, Kraby stresses: "We've [industry] got to provide financial assistance for students if we are to get the [pilot] numbers." The programme might require that student loans be guaranteed by the sponsoring organisation. Another solution might be to have loans reduced by 5% per year up to a maximum of 50% for each year the candidate works for a sponsoring airline.

 

[Flyer1015]

With the above having been said, wouldn't it be far cheaper for Delta to hire current Delta Connection pilots?

Delta alone in the next 15 years will lose 7,600 pilots who will reach age-65 and retire, says Kraby.

Delta Connection carriers themselves have almost 7000 pilots. Pinnacle about 1400, Mesaba around 1000, Comair 1000 (and dwindling), Compass 420, ASA 1750, Shuttle America + Chautauqua a good amount, Skywest a good amount. Guarantee all Delta Connection pilots an interview at Delta would solve the same problem. That proposed ab-initio program still has a pilot interview with Delta, but it's guaranteed. Why not just cut out the BS and guarantee a Connection pilot an interview? Or any regional airline pilot an interview? There is NO pilot shortage but what THEY (Delta) make of it!

 

[On Your Six]

With the above having been said, wouldn't it be far cheaper for Delta to hire current Delta Connection pilots?


Delta Connection carriers themselves have almost 7000 pilots. Pinnacle about 1400, Mesaba around 1000, Comair 1000 (and dwindling), Compass 420, ASA 1750, Shuttle America + Chautauqua a good amount, Skywest a good amount. Guarantee all Delta Connection pilots an interview at Delta would solve the same problem. That proposed ab-initio program still has a pilot interview with Delta, but it's guaranteed. Why not just cut out the BS and guarantee a Connection pilot an interview? Or any regional airline pilot an interview? There is NO pilot shortage but what THEY (Delta) make of it!

I thought you were looking to go to Qatar? I am sure some DCI pilots will eventually be hired by Delta, but they may want some quality control. It's up to them, and you can apply to Qatari anytime you want.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[Flyer1015]

I thought you were looking to go to Qatar? I am sure some DCI pilots will eventually be hired by Delta, but they may want some quality control. It's up to them, and you can apply to Qatari anytime you want.


Godspeed!


OYS

Thanks General Lee, I'll probably apply to check it out. Though EK is higher on my list. I'm exploring a few options here, too. Nothing is off the table. Have a good day, General.