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imp:handlesaregay
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- Oct 21, 2005
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c
I didn't say that you did. If you think flying for free is a great way to get ahead then by all means go get 'em tiger! Please do it, I'm sure it will be a great opportunity for you. And keep in touch and let us know how it works out. I'm sure the regionals will be beating down your door in no time. And I hear South Dakota is beautiful this time of year, don't forget to keep us all updated on your career progression!
I didn't say that you did. If you think flying for free is a great way to get ahead then by all means go get 'em tiger! Please do it, I'm sure it will be a great opportunity for you. And keep in touch and let us know how it works out. I'm sure the regionals will be beating down your door in no time. And I hear South Dakota is beautiful this time of year, don't forget to keep us all updated on your career progression!
1013dot25hPa
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2005
- Posts
- 60
Sim Sweat
Like I care ...
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2005
- Posts
- 58
Ahh ...
That kinda answers the question I was about to ask ... which was how did they put these non-paid people in the right seat under their opspecs, which clearly require a qualified SIC. But now that they're taking payment for the seat, I guess that allows them to provide minimal indocs training. I hope their POI is secure in his job ....
That kinda answers the question I was about to ask ... which was how did they put these non-paid people in the right seat under their opspecs, which clearly require a qualified SIC. But now that they're taking payment for the seat, I guess that allows them to provide minimal indocs training. I hope their POI is secure in his job ....
handlesaregay
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- Oct 21, 2005
- Posts
- 91
Maybe they should advertise on Ebay
To me this represents a whole new low and I really hope this is not the start of a trend, paying for training and then working for free indefinitely afterwards? That is insanity! What these morons don't realize is they are taking a right seat turbine job for free in order to get another right seat turbine job for pay. What's stopping someone from taking the pay job they're trying to get and doing the same thing? What if regionals start using "interns" instead of paid First Officers? I can just imagine it, spend an entire semester getting real experience as an airline FO! We'll use your tuition money to finance the training and give you 4 or 5 months of real 121 line flying experience! I bet you could staff an entire airline that way or at least partially, reduce to a core group of permanent first officers and the other 2/3 could be temporary interns rotating in a new crop of idiots every few months. (And now that I've put this on a public forum I give it 12 months before somebody actually tries this, you heard it here first.) Yes I know it's being done by Gulfstream already but there is nothing stopping it from spreading and this sort of thing becoming the rule instead of the exception.
Young commercial pilots need to get out of the student mentality that is driving crap like this. I think you would do less damage to the profession by pencil whipping 800 hours of metro time in your logbook then actually helping this a-hole in South Dakota crew his metro for free. (I'm being sarcastic of course) I would rather tow banners, flight instruct, do traffic watch, just about anything other than use my certificates to fly for that j-off. The end does NOT justify the means. If it were up to me anyone crewing an airplane for free would have their commerical ticket immediately revoked, torn up, shredded, burned, and the ashes divided and sent to the four corners of the earth. But that's just me.
Follow up:
...after doing some research I'm not convinced these guys aren't violating state and federal minimum wage laws by running this scam. Just because you agree to work for less than minimum wage doesn't necessarily make it legal. I'm still researching this, I notice even Gulfstream pays a "wage" while you're there, possibly this is why? Any of you pilot/lawyers out there?
South Dakota Division of Labor and Management: 605-773-3682
US Department of Labor
Standards Administration Wage and Hour
To me this represents a whole new low and I really hope this is not the start of a trend, paying for training and then working for free indefinitely afterwards? That is insanity! What these morons don't realize is they are taking a right seat turbine job for free in order to get another right seat turbine job for pay. What's stopping someone from taking the pay job they're trying to get and doing the same thing? What if regionals start using "interns" instead of paid First Officers? I can just imagine it, spend an entire semester getting real experience as an airline FO! We'll use your tuition money to finance the training and give you 4 or 5 months of real 121 line flying experience! I bet you could staff an entire airline that way or at least partially, reduce to a core group of permanent first officers and the other 2/3 could be temporary interns rotating in a new crop of idiots every few months. (And now that I've put this on a public forum I give it 12 months before somebody actually tries this, you heard it here first.) Yes I know it's being done by Gulfstream already but there is nothing stopping it from spreading and this sort of thing becoming the rule instead of the exception.
Young commercial pilots need to get out of the student mentality that is driving crap like this. I think you would do less damage to the profession by pencil whipping 800 hours of metro time in your logbook then actually helping this a-hole in South Dakota crew his metro for free. (I'm being sarcastic of course) I would rather tow banners, flight instruct, do traffic watch, just about anything other than use my certificates to fly for that j-off. The end does NOT justify the means. If it were up to me anyone crewing an airplane for free would have their commerical ticket immediately revoked, torn up, shredded, burned, and the ashes divided and sent to the four corners of the earth. But that's just me.
Follow up:
...after doing some research I'm not convinced these guys aren't violating state and federal minimum wage laws by running this scam. Just because you agree to work for less than minimum wage doesn't necessarily make it legal. I'm still researching this, I notice even Gulfstream pays a "wage" while you're there, possibly this is why? Any of you pilot/lawyers out there?
South Dakota Division of Labor and Management: 605-773-3682
US Department of Labor
Standards Administration Wage and Hour
Last edited:
WhiteCloud
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- Joined
- Dec 20, 2002
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- 1,012
handlesaregay
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
- Posts
- 91
Idea for commerical pilot's organization
This is why we need some sort of national trade union for GA pilots. The idea has been tossed around before, but with more and more of us spending our entire careers in GA maybe it's an idea whose time has finally come?
It doesn't even have to be a union perse, with contracts and negotiatons and picket lines, but a simple voluntary organization with a basic code of conduct like "Thou shalt not fly for free". You could do this totally on the pilots side, no messy involvement with management just a group of like minded pilots getting together and agreeing on some basic rules of conduct and if you violate them you're out. Call it the Professional Aviators Guild or something like that. Not a strong arm organization like the teamsters just a professional organization of pilots using nothing more than old fashioned peer pressure, sort of a self-policing type deal.
Maybe I'm a dreamer, but in this day of the internet things are possible that maybe weren't possible 20 years ago. You wouldn't even need huge numbers for it to work, you could be effective with as little as 10% of active GA pilots. Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting some sort of internet PFT blacklist or anything, just letting people know what operators meet certain minimum ethical standards and which ones don't. And if you happen to know of someone using their commerical ticket to work for free maybe the rest of us should know about it too. Just an idea, if anyone wants to take it and run with it feel free. I have a buddy of mine who is a web designer in his spare time maybe I might talk to him about putting something together. I am not currently flying at the moment so I have a lot of time on my hands. Idle hands are the devil's work. :nuts:
This is why we need some sort of national trade union for GA pilots. The idea has been tossed around before, but with more and more of us spending our entire careers in GA maybe it's an idea whose time has finally come?
It doesn't even have to be a union perse, with contracts and negotiatons and picket lines, but a simple voluntary organization with a basic code of conduct like "Thou shalt not fly for free". You could do this totally on the pilots side, no messy involvement with management just a group of like minded pilots getting together and agreeing on some basic rules of conduct and if you violate them you're out. Call it the Professional Aviators Guild or something like that. Not a strong arm organization like the teamsters just a professional organization of pilots using nothing more than old fashioned peer pressure, sort of a self-policing type deal.
Maybe I'm a dreamer, but in this day of the internet things are possible that maybe weren't possible 20 years ago. You wouldn't even need huge numbers for it to work, you could be effective with as little as 10% of active GA pilots. Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting some sort of internet PFT blacklist or anything, just letting people know what operators meet certain minimum ethical standards and which ones don't. And if you happen to know of someone using their commerical ticket to work for free maybe the rest of us should know about it too. Just an idea, if anyone wants to take it and run with it feel free. I have a buddy of mine who is a web designer in his spare time maybe I might talk to him about putting something together. I am not currently flying at the moment so I have a lot of time on my hands. Idle hands are the devil's work. :nuts:
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