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Knob

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Posts
217
Metroliner III first officer
On demand cargo operation (Nationwide). This NO SALARY position is available to short time pilots who have a desire to build time in a twin turbine aircraft.
Minimum requirements are the possesion of a FAA commercial multi-engine/IFR rated pilot license and a second class medical certificate. Previous turbine experience is desireable but not required.

The way the regionals are going, this could be the new minimums.
 
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Knob said:
Metroliner III first officer
On demand cargo operation (Nationwide). This NO SALARY position is available to short time pilots who have a desire to build time in a twin turbine aircraft.
Minimum requirements are the possesion of a FAA commercial multi-engine/IFR rated pilot license and a second class medical certificate. Previous turbine experience is desireable but not required.

The way the regionals are going, this could be the new minimums.

Any contact info? If we all spam them with bogus resume' maybe they'll get a clue
 
whats the QOL? Well at least they aren' t asking you to pay
 
I think anyone who thinks that is a good deal should absolutely drop everything and go for it. It takes a special kind of idiot to actually think that is any sort of opportunity . Uprooting your life to go chasing after a "job" (if you can call it that) that is probably your worst nightmare, (pos airplanes, 3 AM phone calls, on the road all the time) yes your typical 135 job but could you actually put up with those conditions if you weren't even getting paid? I don't even know anyone who has the resources to support themselves long term while working for free, and what do you do when you've exhausted your resources and for some reason you can't get another job? I would really like to hear from anyone seriously considering this, not to bash but just out of sheer curiosity. I would like to know what your personal/financial circumstances are, your long term career goals, and what exactly you think you'd be gaining by doing this. Any takers?
 
No salary=possible hourly wage? Or just logging time?

I currently am riding along on freight routes to build time (on the 91 legs), does this make me unworthy? (no pay) At least they are not asking for money to PFT. If one wants to make the sacrifice to build time, it doesn't seem that bad to me (without mandatory commitments of course)
 
moving2vegas said:
fax (605) 373-9595

I suggest every single person on this board send a fax telling them to suck it.
Be careful what you do here. My brother had to pay out on a civil judgement because he faxed an advertisement for his buisness to people.

If you spam or harass through a fax machine, you can find yourself in jeopardy of federal prosecution as well. Something about phone lines and interstate commerce makes it their territory.

Not to mention, there's the RICO law thingy to contend with.

In order for this guy to get a civil judgement under RICO, all he has to prove is that there a crime and that phone lines were used as a means of "extortion".

If you feel froggy, I'd say leap and see what happens.
 
handlesaregay said:
I think anyone who thinks that is a good deal should absolutely drop everything and go for it. It takes a special kind of idiot to actually think that is any sort of opportunity . Uprooting your life to go chasing after a "job" (if you can call it that) that is probably your worst nightmare, (pos airplanes, 3 AM phone calls, on the road all the time) yes your typical 135 job but could you actually put up with those conditions if you weren't even getting paid? I don't even know anyone who has the resources to support themselves long term while working for free, and what do you do when you've exhausted your resources and for some reason you can't get another job? I would really like to hear from anyone seriously considering this, not to bash but just out of sheer curiosity. I would like to know what your personal/financial circumstances are, your long term career goals, and what exactly you think you'd be gaining by doing this. Any takers?

OK... I'll bite... I'll answer why a pilot may want to do this to himself or herself. By the way... I would not... I build my time as a CFI, CII, MEI and I do not subscribe to pay for training or working for free, but I think I know why people do it.

A pilot finally gets his or her Multi Commercial Instrument and by this time has invested about $40-50 grand into this career. His or her total time is hovering around 350 TT with maybe 40 multi hours. They are out of $$$. The pilot wants to fly for the airlines and most regional's mins are 1,000 TT / 100 multi... HMMMM how to get from 350 to 1,000. The pilot does not want to pay $$$$ out the butt anymore and comes across a deal like the one posted here. The reality for this pilot is that building Multi turnbine time by working for free is a lot more economical than paying $250.00 per hour in the local flying clubs multi. The reality is that these days it costs soooo much to build multi time...there are a lot of desparate pilots who want to get there career off the ground that this type of thing unfortunately is appealing
 
...and to follow up on what Bernoulli stated above:

If you are a TFK, then you'll jump on this gig and your QOL will be just fine.
 
Tfk???
 
Edit: Found the contact info:

Air One Express, Inc.
[SIZE=-1]701 West National Guard Drive, Sioux Falls, SD 57104
(605) 373-0303; Fax (605) 373-9595
James Brintnell, President; Rob Klinghagen, Director-Maintenance; Malek Cheeti, Director-
Operations/Chief Pilot
Equipment: Cargo only: 2 Fairchild Metros

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Edited to add info I found after brief search.
[/SIZE]
 
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OK... I'll bite... I'll answer why a pilot may want to do this to himself or herself. By the way... I would not... I build my time as a CFI, CII, MEI and I do not subscribe to pay for training or working for free, but I think I know why people do it.

A pilot finally gets his or her Multi Commercial Instrument and by this time has invested about $40-50 grand into this career. His or her total time is hovering around 350 TT with maybe 40 multi hours. They are out of $$$. The pilot wants to fly for the airlines and most regional's mins are 1,000 TT / 100 multi... HMMMM how to get from 350 to 1,000. The pilot does not want to pay $$$$ out the butt anymore and comes across a deal like the one posted here. The reality for this pilot is that building Multi turnbine time by working for free is a lot more economical than paying $250.00 per hour in the local flying clubs multi. The reality is that these days it costs soooo much to build multi time...there are a lot of desparate pilots who want to get there career off the ground that this type of thing unfortunately is appealing


Okay so let's do the math here. You have 350 hours and you need 1000 so that's 650 hours. If you fly around 80 hours a month that's going to take you a little over 8 months, and since you want to work for a regional you'll have to add on another month or two to get through the hiring process, get a class date, etc. So best case scenario you can maybe start a new job 10 months later, (and that is an extremely rosey scenario considering another 9/11 could happen tomorrow and then you would be up the proverbial creek). So you have to relocate god knows where and support yourself for at least 10 months: gas, food, rent, car insurance, cell phone, (divorce lawyer if you're married). Even if you live very frugally you're going to spend at least $800 a month on living expenses, and I hope you don't have any debt! And of course when you do get another job you'll have to relocate again so hope you have some more cash stashed away somewhere. For any sane person to try and pull this off they would have to have a minimum of 10-15K in the bank, transportation, and no personal ties holding them back. (BTW 10-15K is enough money to finance your cfi/cfii/mei and buy a Kia.) Now let's play what if:

1) You get an accident/incident/violation on the job =you're screwed

2) You get fired
=you're screwed

3) For some reason you quit
=you're screwed

4) The economy decides to take a dump
=you're screwed

That last one is a b#tch. How far are you going to go with you 650 hours of Metro time when there are furloughed airline pilots taking up all the good jobs and you don't even have your CFI? If everything doesn't go excatly how you calculated it's a recipe to wind up broke, bitter, and unemployed. Sure there's always a chance it could "pay off", the economy stays good and a year later you get on somewhere, but what exactly have you gained? You took a huge risk and 10 months later you're sitting in class next to a bunch of 1200 hour CFI's who got there in the same amount of time that you did and they did it the right way and got paid for it. (And if I were doing the hiring I would be looking really hard at anyone who's first and only job as a pilot was in a turbine aircraft). But hey don't take my word for it, if it sounds good to you DO IT! I'm not telling anyone what to do, but I promise you sooner or later, you'll regret it. If you can't see the zillion potential pitfalls here then you absolutely deserve the job.

And regarding the trust fund kids, you think they're going to waste their time with this when they can go to Gulfstream and wear a pretty uniform? Trust Fund Kids are spoiled and lazy, there's no way they're going to go bust their hump for some dirtbag when there are a lot better options out there for those with unlimited resources.
 
I get it now, TFK! Thanks!

I'm no TFK, by any standards, as I'm rather broke. I'm CFI'n, hold a full time job, a wife and try to build some hours riding 91 legs. I know that it says no salary, but do they pay hourly wages? No, I'm not interested in the position, just wondering.
 
So you are saying that you need to be a cfi to get a job somewhere???? The RIGHT way???? Tell me what the right way is!! Please.
 
Avimec said:
So you are saying that you need to be a cfi to get a job somewhere???? The RIGHT way???? Tell me what the right way is!! Please.

If you do it the way he did it, then it is the "right" way. :rolleyes:
 
Free SIC time in a single-pilot airplane...

At least it's worth every cent of what they're paying.

Jerks. :pimp:
 
c
So you are saying that you need to be a cfi to get a job somewhere???? The RIGHT way???? Tell me what the right way is!! Please.

I didn't say that you did. If you think flying for free is a great way to get ahead then by all means go get 'em tiger! Please do it, I'm sure it will be a great opportunity for you. And keep in touch and let us know how it works out. I'm sure the regionals will be beating down your door in no time. And I hear South Dakota is beautiful this time of year, don't forget to keep us all updated on your career progression!
 
The description for this job (if you can call it that) has slightly changed as posted on Jan 7 on one of the pilot job boards. It now states that you need to pay the company $3,500.00 for groundschool and flight training which is refundable after you have worked 800 hours or 1 year.
 
Ahh ...

That kinda answers the question I was about to ask ... which was how did they put these non-paid people in the right seat under their opspecs, which clearly require a qualified SIC. But now that they're taking payment for the seat, I guess that allows them to provide minimal indocs training. I hope their POI is secure in his job ....
 
Maybe they should advertise on Ebay

To me this represents a whole new low and I really hope this is not the start of a trend, paying for training and then working for free indefinitely afterwards? That is insanity! What these morons don't realize is they are taking a right seat turbine job for free in order to get another right seat turbine job for pay. What's stopping someone from taking the pay job they're trying to get and doing the same thing? What if regionals start using "interns" instead of paid First Officers? I can just imagine it, spend an entire semester getting real experience as an airline FO! We'll use your tuition money to finance the training and give you 4 or 5 months of real 121 line flying experience! I bet you could staff an entire airline that way or at least partially, reduce to a core group of permanent first officers and the other 2/3 could be temporary interns rotating in a new crop of idiots every few months. (And now that I've put this on a public forum I give it 12 months before somebody actually tries this, you heard it here first.) Yes I know it's being done by Gulfstream already but there is nothing stopping it from spreading and this sort of thing becoming the rule instead of the exception.

Young commercial pilots need to get out of the student mentality that is driving crap like this. I think you would do less damage to the profession by pencil whipping 800 hours of metro time in your logbook then actually helping this a-hole in South Dakota crew his metro for free. (I'm being sarcastic of course) I would rather tow banners, flight instruct, do traffic watch, just about anything other than use my certificates to fly for that j-off. The end does NOT justify the means. If it were up to me anyone crewing an airplane for free would have their commerical ticket immediately revoked, torn up, shredded, burned, and the ashes divided and sent to the four corners of the earth. But that's just me. :rolleyes:


Follow up:

...after doing some research I'm not convinced these guys aren't violating state and federal minimum wage laws by running this scam. Just because you agree to work for less than minimum wage doesn't necessarily make it legal. I'm still researching this, I notice even Gulfstream pays a "wage" while you're there, possibly this is why? Any of you pilot/lawyers out there?

South Dakota Division of Labor and Management: 605-773-3682

US Department of Labor
Standards Administration Wage and Hour
 
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1013dot25hPa said:
The description for this job (if you can call it that) has slightly changed as posted on Jan 7 on one of the pilot job boards. It now states that you need to pay the company $3,500.00 for groundschool and flight training which is refundable after you have worked 800 hours or 1 year.
What are the odds that a company like this will hand over $3500. to a pilot about to leave?
 
WhiteCloud said:
What are the odds that a company like this will hand over $3500. to a pilot about to leave?
Exactly. Count on getting fired at 11 months or 775 hours, which ever comes 1st. These are the kinds of "low-rents" that the FAA is going to have to put out of business and ban all mgmt involved from ever operating in an aviation arena again.
 
Idea for commerical pilot's organization

This is why we need some sort of national trade union for GA pilots. The idea has been tossed around before, but with more and more of us spending our entire careers in GA maybe it's an idea whose time has finally come?

It doesn't even have to be a union perse, with contracts and negotiatons and picket lines, but a simple voluntary organization with a basic code of conduct like "Thou shalt not fly for free". You could do this totally on the pilots side, no messy involvement with management just a group of like minded pilots getting together and agreeing on some basic rules of conduct and if you violate them you're out. Call it the Professional Aviators Guild or something like that. Not a strong arm organization like the teamsters just a professional organization of pilots using nothing more than old fashioned peer pressure, sort of a self-policing type deal.

Maybe I'm a dreamer, but in this day of the internet things are possible that maybe weren't possible 20 years ago. You wouldn't even need huge numbers for it to work, you could be effective with as little as 10% of active GA pilots. Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting some sort of internet PFT blacklist or anything, just letting people know what operators meet certain minimum ethical standards and which ones don't. And if you happen to know of someone using their commerical ticket to work for free maybe the rest of us should know about it too. Just an idea, if anyone wants to take it and run with it feel free. I have a buddy of mine who is a web designer in his spare time maybe I might talk to him about putting something together. I am not currently flying at the moment so I have a lot of time on my hands. Idle hands are the devil's work. :nuts:
 

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