CommutAir votes in ALPA

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA needs allot of work if it loses SKYW and USAIR and gains Commutair. That is a net gain of negative. Congrats to the Commutair guys regardless.

In addition, it just isn't the right time for a dues increase no matter how its done.

 

[PCL_128]

In addition, it just isn't the right time for a dues increase no matter how its done.

Disagree, unless the EC will agree to release MCF funds to the OCF. Without that, the OCF needs to be funded somehow. Revenue must come up.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Disagree, unless the EC will agree to release MCF funds to the OCF. Without that, the OCF needs to be funded somehow. Revenue must come up.

Agreed.... but the membership is disconnected on such as level that they can't understand the issue...

If the membership was polled... what % would be in favor?

ALPA decert is the flavor of the month right now...

 

[PCL_128]

Agreed.... but the membership is disconnected on such as level that they can't understand the issue...

Agreed, but irrelevant. If you don't raise revenue just so you can make the membership happy in the short term, then you bankrupt the union and everyone is unhappy long-term. Short of shifting MCF funds, the OCF will soon be bankrupt. No amount of staff cuts will change that. The money has to come from somewhere.

ALPA decert is the flavor of the month right now...

Do you think that would be the case if Duane would have been reelected two years ago? Personally, I see a conflagration of problems that could have easily been avoided by a smarter leader than Prater. Would Duane have flubbed the Age 60 issues as Prater did? Would Duane have flubbed the AWA/AAA issue to the point of allowing the creation of USCABA? I don't think so. These massive blunders by an incompetent leader have lead us to this point. ALPA decert wouldn't even be on the radar if these mistakes had not been made. Pilots can forgive massive concessions, because they vote on them. What they can't forgive is a change to an Age 60 policy that they voted against. They can't forgive a dues increase that is snuck in the back door. These are the kinds of things that lead to rebellion, and they can all be sourced to Prater. Prater needs to go.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Agreed, but irrelevant. If you don't raise revenue just so you can make the membership happy in the short term, then you bankrupt the union and everyone is unhappy long-term. Short of shifting MCF funds, the OCF will soon be bankrupt. No amount of staff cuts will change that. The money has to come from somewhere.

If we continue to alienate the membership they were decert ALPA property by property...

The leadership needs to connect with the membership. It never really has... so the blame game types can calm down...

The membership of course needs to step up too..

Do you think that would be the case if Duane would have been reelected two years ago? Personally, I see a conflagration of problems that could have easily been avoided by a smarter leader than Prater. Would Duane have flubbed the Age 60 issues as Prater did? Would Duane have flubbed the AWA/AAA issue to the point of allowing the creation of USCABA? I don't think so. These massive blunders by an incompetent leader have lead us to this point. ALPA decert wouldn't even be on the radar if these mistakes had not been made. Pilots can forgive massive concessions, because they vote on them. What they can't forgive is a change to an Age 60 policy that they voted against. They can't forgive a dues increase that is snuck in the back door. These are the kinds of things that lead to rebellion, and they can all be sourced to Prater. Prater needs to go.

Agreed... DW was the better choice... but the UAL and CAL guys had to look out for themselves and not the profession....

Not sure if Prater needs to go...maybe... whos the replacement?

 

[DX Rick]

In addition, it just isn't the right time for a dues increase no matter how its done.

ALPA thinks it's the right time to take more dues from it's members, but not the right time to ask companies for pay raises.
Makes a lot of sense.

 

[PCL_128]

If we continue to alienate the membership they were decert ALPA property by property...

Agreed, but what's your solution to the OCF short-fall? If you don't increase revenue simply because you don't want to piss off the membership, then the OCF will go bankrupt. It's not a matter of if, but when (and probably soon).

Not sure if Prater needs to go...maybe... whos the replacement?

I can think of a few names. Number one would be Captain Rice. Hell, let's just send a delegation down to Florida to beg Duane to come back. But Prater must go. His first 18 months have been some of the worst in ALPA history, and he's personally responsible for a lot of the problems.

 

[BankAccount=0$]

Shouldn't this thread here to welcome the CommutAir pilot group to ALPA. Prater/ Woerth bickering as valid as it may be isn't really the intent of the thread.

Just to get things back on track, CommutAir pilots welcome to the great ALPA world. While it may not be the solution to all of the world's problems, it is a step in the right direction to getting you guys some sort of work rules and hopefully the compensation that you all deserve. I remember flying the dreaded CZ trip out of CLE, I remember being "pencil-whipped" into the worlds worst schedule, and I sure as He*l remember sitting in HPN waiting for the fog to lift for hours while not being paid for my time. Congrats on your overwhelmingly successful drive to unionize, and congrats for showing the Plattsburgh gang just how united you all are at having a prosperous future.

 

[DoinTime]

Would Duane have flubbed the Age 60 issues as Prater did?

Do you honestly think the age 60 smack down was avoidable? Age 60+ was coming whether anyone in ALPA liked it or not. In the end ALPA was able to secure many extremely valuable protections in this legislation. Those would not have been there had ALPA dug in with its opposition. I wasn't in favor of raising the retirement age but I am smart enough to know what to do when I walk into a gun fight armed only with a knife.

One of the hallmarks of great leadership is the ability to deviate from the will of the uneducated masses when they are running full steam towards the edge of the cliff.

Would Duane have flubbed the AWA/AAA issue to the point of allowing the creation of USCABA? I don't think so.

The AAA pilots were lost the day the Nic award came out. Defection was the only means for relief on the perceived cram down on seniority. The only way Prater (or anyone) could have saved that situation would have been to violate ALPA merger policy and set aside the Nic award. Clearly, he wasn't about to do that.

These massive blunders by an incompetent leader have lead us to this point. ALPA decert wouldn't even be on the radar if these mistakes had not been made. Pilots can forgive massive concessions, because they vote on them. What they can't forgive is a change to an Age 60 policy that they voted against. They can't forgive a dues increase that is snuck in the back door. These are the kinds of things that lead to rebellion, and they can all be sourced to Prater. Prater needs to go.

Who would you recommend as a replacement? Moak? Webb? Bathurst? Tell me you have a better plan than this?

Cutting off your head because you don't like it does not equate to a successful revolution. In fact, it wreaks of the cowardly defection of our former AAA brothers and sisters.

 

[TWA Dude]

The AAA pilots were lost the day the Nic award came out.

I disagree. They were "lost" during their second trip through Chapter 11.

Defection was the only means for relief on the perceived cram down on seniority.

No "relief" is in store for them. Only the lawyer they pay to tell them what they wish to hear says changing unions changes binding arbitration.

Not trying for thread creep. I congratulate CommuteAir for voting ALPA as well but their expectations must be realistic. Previously they've been able to blame their management for everything -- now they'll have a potential scapegoat in ALPA if it fails to fix everything. Of course ALPA can't fix everything and the lesson of the USAir (East) pilot group is that scapegoating solves nothing and will likely make things worse. (Hint: the former AWA pilots will not sit back idly when USAPA tries to steal our seniority at the negotiating table.)

 

[CopilotDoug]

That is a net gain of negative.

I wouldn't say that Rez, what if your future ALPA president just became an ALPA member?

 

[PCL_128]

Do you honestly think the age 60 smack down was avoidable?

In the short-term, yes. Could we have held it off for another 10 years? Unlikely. Could we have held it off for another 2? Very likely. And as we're seeing right now with likely furloughs at many carriers, those two years could have made a big difference for a lot of pilots who will now be on the street while the senior guys wallow in their greed. Prater managed to fast-track this legislation. There's no denying that. Oberstar got his marching orders and he brought the bill to the floor with all of ALPA's requested changes. Had Prater not pushed the bill, then Oberstar could have held it up for a long time to come.

One of the hallmarks of great leadership is the ability to deviate from the will of the uneducated masses when they are running full steam towards the edge of the cliff.

And this was not an example of such leadership.

The AAA pilots were lost the day the Nic award came out. Defection was the only means for relief on the perceived cram down on seniority. The only way Prater (or anyone) could have saved that situation would have been to violate ALPA merger policy and set aside the Nic award. Clearly, he wasn't about to do that.

I disagree. I think a compromise settlement was a possibility, but it would have taken true leadership from the Association President.

Who would you recommend as a replacement? Moak? Webb? Bathurst? Tell me you have a better plan than this?

Paul Rice is my favorite. Moak could use a little more experience first, and Bathurst is an ass. Webb made the same mistakes on Age 60, so I wouldn't favor him, but I think he's be better than Prater on most issues. There are a couple of EVPs that could probably do a good job.

 

[CopilotDoug]

If we continue to alienate the membership they were decert ALPA property by property...

The leadership needs to connect with the membership. It never really has... so the blame game types can calm down...

The membership of course needs to step up too.

100% correct. If ALPA as an organization would like to stick around, a dues increase would be the self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head only to GUARANTEE more in-house offshoots. What will National have to do to make the connection with its members? Will the membership step up to the plate?

 

[Soulfly00]

ALPA at commutair?

Dale H. is probably having a heart attack right now! And not just one that he fakes on new-hire IOE's to see whether or not they are "ready for the line". Hopefully his ice-cream machine is still working in his Plattsburgh convenience store.

CONGRATS TO EVERYONE AT COMMUTAIR!
GOOD FOR YOU GUYS!

 

[CA1900]

My only regret is that I'm not present to see the look on Gary W's face, now that all these lowly people junior to him are "f---ing up his company."

 

[DoinTime]

In the short-term, yes. Could we have held it off for another 10 years? Unlikely. Could we have held it off for another 2? Very likely. And as we're seeing right now with likely furloughs at many carriers, those two years could have made a big difference for a lot of pilots who will now be on the street while the senior guys wallow in their greed. Prater managed to fast-track this legislation. There's no denying that. Oberstar got his marching orders and he brought the bill to the floor with all of ALPA's requested changes. Had Prater not pushed the bill, then Oberstar could have held it up for a long time to come.

Oberstar had no inclination to hang this legislation up. Contrary to popular belief he is not in ALPAs back pocket and he was going to go through with it one way or the other whether ALPA was on board or not. The lack of opposition in Congressional voting on this issue should give you an indication that Oberstar wasn't going to stop it, the APA wasn't going to stop it, and ALPA wasn't going to stop it.

Dragging it out another year was probably possible but it would have been at the cost of the "status quo" provisions contained in the legislation. Dragging this inevitability out longer just to impose your will on older pilots is the exact same type of greed you accuse them of.

I disagree. I think a compromise settlement was a possibility, but it would have taken true leadership from the Association President.

You would have encouraged the ALPA president to set aside ALPA policy to appease a pilot group that threatened to defect? I hope you can see how dangerous of precedent this would establish. Had Prater done this in the future when group of pilots didn't get their way all they would have to do is threaten to defect and presto they would get what they wanted. Not to mention that setting aside the arbitrators award aside would undermine the entire foundation of dispute resolution that our industry is built on. I think John did a great job at holding the line.

The AAA pilots went into arbitration knowing full well that they may not like what the arbitrator found and they did it anyway. When it came time to pay the piper they took their toys and went home. This type of behavior does not need encouragement. If the AAA pilots wanted to negotiate a settlement the time was prior to the arbitration.

 

[PCL_128]

Dragging it out another year was probably possible but it would have been at the cost of the "status quo" provisions contained in the legislation.

There's no reason to believe that. The legislation could have been delayed for at least another year or two, and there's no reason to believe that we couldn't have achieved the same language improvements at that point that we received last year. Prater would have you believe otherwise, but his bias is showing.

Dragging this inevitability out longer just to impose your will on older pilots is the exact same type of greed you accuse them of.

It's not imposing my will, it's enforcing the law of the land that they agreed to when they signed up for this profession. Status quo is not an "imposition."

You would have encouraged the ALPA president to set aside ALPA policy to appease a pilot group that threatened to defect?

An additional fence agreement would not have required the actual list to be set aside. Fencing off wide-bodies and East bases for a set period of time would probably have been enough to short-circuit the decert drive, IMO. A simple LOA would suffice, and there's no reason to consider that an abrogation of ALPA Merger Policy.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In the short-term, yes. Could we have held it off for another 10 years? Unlikely. Could we have held it off for another 2? Very likely. And as we're seeing right now with likely furloughs at many carriers, those two years could have made a big difference for a lot of pilots who will now be on the street while the senior guys wallow in their greed. Prater managed to fast-track this legislation. There's no denying that. Oberstar got his marching orders and he brought the bill to the floor with all of ALPA's requested changes. Had Prater not pushed the bill, then Oberstar could have held it up for a long time to come.

possible but not likely...IMHO.

And this was not an example of such leadership.



I disagree. I think a compromise settlement was a possibility, but it would have taken true leadership from the Association President.

Leadership quagmire's at ALPA are not entirely unique.

People don't' mind change... they just don't like being changed..

ALPA-N needed to reach out to the membership more on this... but keep in mind... they did. Fact is the membership choose to remain aloof and self centered on this whole age 65 deal... The leadership certainly wasn't responsible for not reaching out...

Paul Rice is my favorite. Moak could use a little more experience first, and Bathurst is an ass. Webb made the same mistakes on Age 60, so I wouldn't favor him, but I think he's be better than Prater on most issues. There are a couple of EVPs that could probably do a good job.

ALPA has training courses on safety school, accident investigation... even MSOffice...

Just because Prater, your MEC chair or LEC reps got elected.. doesn't mean they are good leaders nor do they have leadership training.

Many ALPA Officers have military exp. MIL leadership style isn't necessarily workable in a union environment. MIL law that requires compliance doesn't work in an union volunteer "army".

ALPA needs to train it leaders to be leaders in a union organization. The ability to lead volunteers who can quit anytime with no consequences.. to lead volunteers who sign up to stroke their ego's and validate 'self' isn't something we learn from everyday life... Leadership is nothing but influence, and acquired trust and respect... but the ability to do that in union organization must be trained.

Word was when the EB replaced the VP Finance some ALPA leaders where asked but since it wasn't the Top position they declined....


Where does the membership play in all of this.... understanding this situation and remaining engaged instead of offering their support conditionally based on their perceived satisfaction levels...

 

[Mr Wu]

Disagree, unless the EC will agree to release MCF funds to the OCF. Without that, the OCF needs to be funded somehow. Revenue must come up.

How much extra will come out of your paycheck if the dues are increased?

 

[PCL_128]

How much extra will come out of your paycheck if the dues are increased?

None. I'm not a member on active status. If I were still a Captain at Pinnacle, it would only be about $15/mo, however. Not a noticeable difference, and certainly worth it to prevent the bankruptcy of the Association.