CommutAir and ALPA?

[UPSFO]

Sorry to hear that!

 

[NEDude]

That's what we're trying to figure out. Looks like another group of pilots who don't give a crap about anyone else but themselves.

How was this vote about anyone other than Commutair? How does it affect anyone else?

I was a supporter of the effort here, and am disappointed that it didn't happen. But I fail to see how our own internal issues are anyone elses business.

And don't give me this crap about ALPA being a 'brotherhood' of pilots. There is so much internal bickering within ALPA it is crazy. I don't see a big warm happy family at USAirways (mainline vs whollyowned - whollyowned vs. non whollyowned - everyone vs Mesa). I don't see one at Delta either (RJDC) And now the United family is starting to talk about jets for jobs. Where is the harmony and caring about everyone else?

And if you fly an RJ, don't even dare talk about "raising the bar". Tell me this - how is pulling a 737 off a route, furloughing the crew, and then paying an RJ crew a third of the 737 crew to fly the same route "raising the standard"? The RJ is the single greatest threat to pilots income and lifestyle the industry has ever seen. Yet every RJ pilot who belongs to ALPA thinks they are raising the bar. I can introduce you to thousands of furloughed mainline pilots who would argue with you. Just because you got your foot in the door doesn't mean you are helping. If you took an RJ job for anything less than major airline pay, you are guilty of lowering the standard of this industry. Just because you are fighting for higher pay now doesn't mean anything, you have already done the damage.

This vote was about CommutAir and CommutAir only. And obviously a majority of CommutAir pilots didn't feel ALPA could help them. It is disappointing for those of us who wanted it. But please do not make this out to be anything more than what it was. CommutAir not voting in ALPA is not going to affect the industry. Flying an RJ around for less than major airline pay has done far more damage to the piloting profession than the CommutAir pilot group could ever come close to doing by not voting in ALPA.

 

[mckpickle]

Hey if the CA guys want to stay non union thats fine and dandy with me. The thing that puts a hair across my a$$ is that one of the main reasons it failed was because some of our pilots spearheaded the campaign against ALPA.


The same ALPA that negotiated jobs for them in the first place. The same ALPA that facilitated the expansion of CA into the CLE market. Had CA not expanded then I doubt there would have been as much growth over the last year.

I hope the union brings Article VIII charges against them for their actions.

My point is that since CA is doing flying that was previously done by our pilots in our airplanes it would be nice to be able to sit down with representitives of the CA pilot group and work out a common strategy to bennefit everyone. Now we, and CA are just CAL's beotch with no way to work together for a common goal.

 

[George Jetson]

The same ALPA that negotiated jobs for them in the first place. The same ALPA that facilitated the expansion of CA into the CLE market. Had CA not expanded then I doubt there would have been as much growth over the last year.

The same ALPA who also negotiated that when the furloughed pilots (including the Commutair XJT pilots) came back to XJT, they would not incur the required 6 month waiting period prior to receiving health benefits. The same ALPA who paid for medical benefits for some of those Commutair guys while they were on furlough prior to their going over to Commutair. Yep...it stings....get them jobs...double the size of the airline...make them all Captains in 6-12 months...yep...sweet, thanks CAL ALPA furloughed CA pilots.

GJ

 

[MJG]

How was this vote about anyone other than Commutair? How does it affect anyone else?

Because it says to all other airline management teams that here is a group of pilots who are willing to work without union representation. Who are willing not to complain when we need to cut their pay and their days off so that we as management can continue to make our beloved six figure salaries. Who won't complain when we need to furlough half of them to the street to make ends meet. Who basically will let us do whatever it takes to make our company work. Boy these sure are a special breed of pilots. They must have very flexible lives, unmarried with no families who really don't need an income to live on. Can't wait till our own employee groups walk out on us cause we can just surely hire these types of pilots since there seem to be more and more of them these days.

 

[NEDude]

I would buy your arguments if any of it were true.

Give me an example of unions preventing furloughs. A no-furlough clause certainly hasn't helped the Delta pilots out. ALPA hasn't prevented furloughs at United, USAirways, Continental, Northwest, Eagle, ExpressJet, or anywhere else. If they can't and haven't prevented furloughs at these big airlines, what on earth makes you think they would have tried, or been able, to prevent furloughs at Commutair two years ago? I mean come on and get real here.

I supported ALPA here because I think we do need a unified voice in some issues. But let's not go overboard on what ALPA can and will do. CommutAir has never been a union carrier in its 14 years of existence. And in those 14 years it has never grown to a size where it has been able to be used as leverage against a union. The pay, lifestyle and benefits have always been average or better for our equipment type. I do think that things have gone downhill a bit and that is why I supported ALPA. But we are not, and have never been a bunch of bottom feeders who steal flying from everyone. I can think of more than just a couple of ALPA carriers who do fit that mold. In fact I can think of a union carrier that charges its F/Os $20,000 for the opportunity.

So I guess I have to ask the question. Is it better to be a union employee and work more, for less pay and benefits, and be used as leverage to drive down salaries in the industry and steal other unionized carriers flying (ie Mesa)? Or is it better to be non-union and have industry average pay, benefits and work rules and thus unable to be used as effective leverage?

Again I ask the question - how does this affect anyone outside of CommutAir? Nobody has yet shown any real reason as to how it can. I am disappointed in our pilot group for how the vote went. But let's not blow this out of proportion and draw conclusions that just don't exist. Being an ALPA carrier does not, and cannot, prevent any airline from furloughing or becoming a bottom feeder who lowers industry pay and becoming a threat to other unionized carriers.

 

[BLWME]

NEDude,

You have hit the nail on the head,

The Commutair Vote has zero impact on other pilot groups.

The majority of people that are pissed are from Xpress jet and from the CalAlpa MEC. They are pissed because they voted to give furloughed XpressJet pilots health benis and argued to give them first option for hiring at CA. They feel betrayed that all.

Hell they want some pilots brought up on ArticleVII charges, AINT GOING TO HAPPEN. they are just blowing off steam.

 

[MJG]

Give me an example of unions preventing furloughs.

OK since you asked: How about when CALAPA successfully negotiated No-Fly lines with XJET management further preventing additional furloughs that would have happened. Since then no additional XJET pilots have been put on the street.

 

[rubberducky]

"

Tell me this = how is pulling a 737 off a route, furloughing the crew, and then paying an RJ crew a third of the 737 crewto fly the same route

While I somewhat agree with statement, it raises the question. Are you not doing the same thing by flying 1900s on routes that COEX could have put ERJs on for higher pay?

RD

"splash and GO"

 

[walkthasky]

.

By discussing on this board and interacting with other pilots you are making it everyones business. I assume thats why we chat on this board. I used to work for CommutAir. Good place to work. Left there over a year ago, and lifestyle was pretty good. I know some of you want to rush ALPA in, but i miss being able to commute on both sides of a 2 day trip. You can forget that with any other airline. Anywhere from 4 - 6 days straight and youre LUCKY if you can commute on one side of the trip. I also miss building my own line with whatever is leftover from trips assigned to other pilots. I admit the pay did suck at commutair, but youre flying 19 seaters. I recall 2nd year pay around $20 /hour (at commutair). The company i fly for only pays $2.50 more for a 29 seater (ALPA carrier). Like i said the pay sucks, but it sucks everywhere, we are all underpaid, But i thought lifestyle was pretty good at CommutAir. However, I have been out of the loop for 13/14 months, things do change. I'm not sure how good or bad ALPA would have made things for you guys. Its really nice to have representation (somewhat), but it could also be a disadvantage. I wish you guys a lot of luck especially with that ESOP thing going on.
my .02

 

[NEDude]

OK since you asked: How about when CALAPA successfully negotiated No-Fly lines with XJET management further preventing additional furloughs that would have happened. Since then no additional XJET pilots have been put on the street.

Of course none of it had anything to do with the 32.4% increase in ASMs, the 13.7% increase in block hours, the 10.7% increase in departures, the addition of at least 2 new airplanes per month over the past year, or record load factors. No, none of that had anything to do with furloughs stopping.

 

[MJG]

Of course none of it had anything to do with the 32.4% increase in ASMs, the 13.7% increase in block hours, the 10.7% increase in departures, the addition of at least 2 new airplanes per month over the past year, or record load factors. No, none of that had anything to do with furloughs stopping.

It did not. We wouldn't have been able to absorb all the flow-backs coming from CAL at the time even with new aircraft deliveries. You can't send down a couple hundred pilots to XJET all at once without having to furlough off the bottom of our list.

In fact we're still getting 3 new aircraft a month and flying more than we ever have. But yet our management just offered and awarded nearly 100 COLA's of either 4 or 6 months. COLAs get offered when the company forsees being overstaffed. If enough pilots opt for the COLA then the company may get away without having to furlough additional pilots this time around. Additional aircraft deliveries, increased ASMs and increased block hours don't always prevent furloughs from happening.